Another interesting comment on rifle reliability.

[Pathfinder76]

This was posted on another forum today. I found it rather obvious. :-)

"One of the ways I have some familiarity with what works and what doesn't regarding trustworthy rifles is my experience working with the Forest Service and being around the variety of .375s they issue to field crews for bear protection.

These rifles are outside constantly from about May through October, regardless of the weather since they're work rifles. They're often carried by people who aren't exactly cleaning enthusiasts so it's possible to get a couple years worth of wear inflicted on a gun in a few months. Because they're work rifles, they're not babied. They get carried through some fairly nasty conditions, to the point that some folks have been known to tie surveyor flagging through the upper sling swivel so the rifle can be quickly located when its set down. Here's a brief rundown.

Remington XCR: Sucky. The most eagerly rusting stainless rifle ever apparently. Box trigger turns into a lair for little rust monsters who eagerly seize it up. Extraction and ejection get iffy over time as well. This rifle actually has a sensible, lightweight barrel profile for a gun to be carried alot. Light barrel is not helpful however. More weight is needed for when rifle becomes a mere club.

Winchester Pre-64 and Post-64 Classic: Excellent. The gun of choice for many. Best overall reliability and easy to fix when something does go wrong. The two problem areas are mag box springs and bolt stop springs, both of which are easily repaired. Barrel profile on the Classics is not appreciated. Seems Winchester didn't want to wear out their barrel profiling machine.

Winchester Post-64 push feed: Mixed. Generally okay. Trigger design is very helpful. Extraction never seemed to be an issue but like the Remington, ejection issues develop over time, to the point that cases aren't thrown clear but rather just dribble out of the action. Replacement plungers and springs help. Same occasional issues with mag springs and bolt stop springs as the other Winchesters. Barrel alone weighs 12 pounds.

Browning A Bolt: Not trustworthy. Trigger issues. Most people attempted to keep away from it.

Mark X Mauser: Good generally, but without maintenance the triggers will seize up. Somehow less prone to this than the Remingtons however.

There are more Winchesters than anything else in inventory it seems. No Rugers due to ammo compatability issues."

[Deer Hunter]

There is no helping people who consider the rifles ability to be used as a club as an "advantage".

Thanks for posting.

[gtr]

I for one,find you not quite so obvious.Its an old story as are you.

[marxman]

Zzzz...

[Pathfinder76]

Some find the truth painful.

[elkhunter11]

I don't put much value in reviews provided by forestry workers that have no clue as how to maintain a firearm.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by chuck

This was posted on another forum today. I found it rather obvious. :-)

"One of the ways I have some familiarity with what works and what doesn't regarding trustworthy rifles is my experience working with the Forest Service and being around the variety of .375s they issue to field crews for bear protection.

These rifles are outside constantly from about May through October, regardless of the weather since they're work rifles. They're often carried by people who aren't exactly cleaning enthusiasts so it's possible to get a couple years worth of wear inflicted on a gun in a few months. Because they're work rifles, they're not babied. They get carried through some fairly nasty conditions, to the point that some folks have been known to tie surveyor flagging through the upper sling swivel so the rifle can be quickly located when its set down. Here's a brief rundown.

Remington XCR: Sucky. The most eagerly rusting stainless rifle ever apparently. Box trigger turns into a lair for little rust monsters who eagerly seize it up. Extraction and ejection get iffy over time as well. This rifle actually has a sensible, lightweight barrel profile for a gun to be carried alot. Light barrel is not helpful however. More weight is needed for when rifle becomes a mere club.

Winchester Pre-64 and Post-64 Classic: Excellent. The gun of choice for many. Best overall reliability and easy to fix when something does go wrong. The two problem areas are mag box springs and bolt stop springs, both of which are easily repaired. Barrel profile on the Classics is not appreciated. Seems Winchester didn't want to wear out their barrel profiling machine.

Winchester Post-64 push feed: Mixed. Generally okay. Trigger design is very helpful. Extraction never seemed to be an issue but like the Remington, ejection issues develop over time, to the point that cases aren't thrown clear but rather just dribble out of the action. Replacement plungers and springs help. Same occasional issues with mag springs and bolt stop springs as the other Winchesters. Barrel alone weighs 12 pounds.

Browning A Bolt: Not trustworthy. Trigger issues. Most people attempted to keep away from it.

Mark X Mauser: Good generally, but without maintenance the triggers will seize up. Somehow less prone to this than the Remingtons however.

There are more Winchesters than anything else in inventory it seems. No Rugers due to ammo compatability issues."

Chuck, if you are relying on Dewey, AKA Kooteney, for rifle advice, I would suggest that you change the channel. His agenda is even more obvious than yours...
But then again, I don't hunt with spare rifle parts in my pack? Well done? Nothing says reliability more than having to pack spare rifle bits with you...


R.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Rman

Chuck, if you are relying on Dewey, AKA Kooteney, for rifle advice, I would suggest that you change the channel. His agenda is even more obvious than yours...
But then again, I don't hunt with spare rifle parts in my pack? Well done? Nothing says reliability more than having to pack spare rifle bits with you...


R.

And as usual, your trolling agenda is made quite obvious as you only post on the forum when you find an opportunity to slag specifically someone of your disliking choice. Otherwise, you're a no show, a non contributor, a basement dweller, a doughnut munching keyboard hero. Now go upstairs and get a hug from mommy....

[Rman]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

And as usual, your trolling agenda is made quite obvious as you only post on the forum when you find an opportunity to slag specifically someone of your disliking choice. Otherwise, you're a no show, a non contributor, a basement dweller, a doughnut munching keyboard hero. Now go upstairs and get a hug from mommy....

Pot, meet kettle...
And I get called these child like names because I openly disagree with you and your .0001" fantasies?

Carry on, good sir, carry on.

R.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Rman

Pot, meet kettle...

R.

gitrdun is about the furthest thing from a troll.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Rman

Pot, meet kettle...
And I get called these child like names because I openly disagree with you and your .0001" fantasies?

Carry on, good sir, carry on.

R.

You get called a troll because you are one. Find another board to start your arguments on, clown.

Trolls aren't welcome here.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Rman

Chuck, if you are relying on Dewey, AKA Kooteney, for rifle advice, I would suggest that you change the channel. His agenda is even more obvious than yours...
But then again, I don't hunt with spare rifle parts in my pack? Well done? Nothing says reliability more than having to pack spare rifle bits with you...


R.

That isn't from Dewey. I have never had to use any spare parts. But I've been with guys using Brownings and 700's that wish they had them. Or a Ruger or Model 70.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by chuck

That isn't from Dewey. I have never had to use any spare parts. But I've been with guys using Brownings and 700's that wish they had them. Or a Ruger or Model 70.

I can agree with chuck for the spare parts. I had a Savage ejector plunger fail on me and the rife would FTE. Not very fun. Have spare parts at home.....never thought about bringing them on deer hunts.....until now.

[wally338]

Happy new year Chuck. Don't feed the troll.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by wally338

Happy new year Chuck. Don't feed the troll.

I'll second that.

[fordtruckin]

hmmm I've worked with numerous Forest Service personnel and the only rifles they were issued for "Bear" protection were Marlin 45/70s with 405gr Garrets.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

hmmm I've worked with numerous Forest Service personnel and the only rifles they were issued for "Bear" protection were Marlin 45/70s with 405gr Garrets.

The variety of 375s yeah right it was a yeah right after that

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by marxman

The variety of 375s yeah right it was a yeah right after that

huh?

[45/70/500]

chuck do you carry a spare barrel and action wrench ?

[sns2]

That ? Was supposed to be a smilie!

[norwestalta]

Edmhunter and Bergerboy we can shoot at my house. Might be a lonely drive back when somebody gets schooled. A little cold and breezy today. We could maybe setup a date. My schedule is up in the air right now but should know more this coming week.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Edmhunter and Bergerboy we can shoot at my house. Might be a lonely drive back when somebody gets schooled. A little cold and breezy today. We could maybe setup a date. My schedule is up in the air right now but should know more this coming week.

Hythe is about 4 hours too far for me. I do appreciate the offer but I think this can be done a little closer to home like maybe Genesee?

[gitrdun]

If I was permitted to shoot in this event, I would bring my long range Bullseye camera system. Being it's offhand, I want a deposit for the full value before a single round goes down range.

[Leeper]

To get back to reliable rifles etc., I will comment on the original post and will throw in a few other observations along the way. Many of my ideas and beliefs may seem a little dated but for that to matter, I would have to care.
The Winchester model 70 is a fine rifle action and rifles built on that platform can be good, reliable, rifles but I truly believe that many of the changes which Winchester made to the Mauser system only serve to make them less reliable. There are also changes made which can be considered to be improvements but which also require some compromise to the integrity of the Mauser system. One change which can be considered to be an improvement is the increased size of the recoil lug and the re-location of the front guard screw. This is, to me, one of two inarguable improvements. The second is the ability to single load the Winchester without employing any special techniques or modifying the extraction system. All other "improvements" are either not improvements at all or they compromise the design intentions. Here are some examples:
The trigger. The Model 70 trigger is one of the earliest of the over riding sear type triggers. In these triggers, the sear engages the cocking piece and the trigger engages the sear. In the Mauser direct-acting trigger, the sear engages the cocking piece and the trigger moves the sear out of engagement. In the Winchester system the striker must over-ride the sear once the trigger disengages from the sear. If there is anything impeding the movement of the sear, the striker may fail to fall or be impeded in it's travel with a misfire being the result. This is the price which is paid for an ajustable, single stage trigger. The advantage of the Winchester over other adjustable trigger system is that it is an "open" machanism. This allows any debris to (hopefully) fall out the bottom rather than disabling the trigger. The Mauser trigger features generous sear engagement which is made possible by the two-stage pull. When the Mauser trigger is tripped, the striker spring has only to drive the firing pin forward unimpeded. From a reliability standpoint, there is little question that this is superior. Unfortunately, most modern hunters can't handle such a manly trigger so they insist on a lighter, single stage trigger. The Winchester is not a bad one.
Lock time. The lock time on the Winchester is indisputably much quicker than on the Mauser. What does this mean? Squat! In the hunting field, lock times are absolutely meaningless. On the target range, they are somewhat less so. The compromise made is reduced reliability of ignition. For a hard use rifle, I don't consider that to be a real improvement.
The Winchester three-position safety is a good system; good enough that use it on one mauser. However, I am perfectly happy with a two position safety as was produced by Beuhler and use those on most Mausers. In truth, I feel that the original two-stage trigger is safety enough. I don't consider the bolt lock feature to be of any real importance. If I'm in a position where it is important to be loaded and locked, I'll have the rifle in my hands anyway. If I am carrying it slung or on a packframe, it doesn't need to be loaded.
Other changes made to the Mauser design are strictly detrimental. The winchester breeching system sucks. The bolt sleeve lock is relatively puny and less effective.
The fact that the Winchester comes ready to receive scope mounts is great but an old FN action does the same thing.
The Interarms actions and rifles would be just fine except that they insisted on going to a single stage, adjustable trigger and it is this which limited their reliability.
As far as scope mounting is concerned, the only real improvement to be made would be to produce either action with integral bases. The best bases are the Weaver-type (Picatinny, if you must). The best rings are probably the Leupold QRW's.
The Talleys bases and rings come in second.
The best scopes are fixed powers of reasonable size. In general, the more compact, the better but on occasion, scopes are made too short which limits mounting options. The big , heavy, variable powered scopes have their place but that place is not on a rifle intended to be used roughly. In a way, this is where the Weaver mounting system shines; one can sight in two scopes and remove and replace them at will. This way, you can mount your 6x Leupold when you want to climb through the alders and up the mountain while stalking your game or you can mount your big and bulky Huskemaw or Nightforce to play "Best in the West". The light, compact fixed power is preferable for hard use. A set of back-up irons can save a hunt as well.
By the way, I think a 338 makes a lot more sense than a 375 for use in North America. It fits most actions better and is certainly sufficiently powerful. Personally, I could get by with an '06. Two more available rounds (in the unlikely event that I miss!) and sufficient for any game with the right ammunition.
As I said before, some may consider me to be just another old guy with old ideas but my rifles always fire and I usually hit my intended target. I do very little pampering of my guns and occasionally have to remove a bit of rust after a long hunt. I have also spent a long time working on rifles which are used even harder than mine and have seen what works well and what doesn't always work at all.
By the way, to me, the best rough-use rifle of modern manufacture is the Ruger 77. It has some flaws, to be sure, but it is basically a solid, reliable firearm. Put a Mauser trigger on it and Weaver-style bases and it would come close to being great. Leeper

[crazy_davey]

Thanks for the laughs edmhunter, you certainly are one big joke!

[norwestalta]

What makes my tikka more reliable than my browning,Mossberg,husqavarna or parker hale?

[marxman]

The second is the ability to single load the Winchester without employing any special techniques or modifying the extraction system. eeper[/QUOTE]

I cant single load my newish win hester the recie er blocks extractor from jumpimg over the cartridge rim . I assume this means the extractor cant pop off the rim untill the cartridge is coming out of the reciever on the way out so is this really an i provement to single load. My cz 550 would single load good thing too half the time it operated push feed anyway

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Edmhunter and Bergerboy we can shoot at my house. Might be a lonely drive back when somebody gets schooled. A little cold and breezy today. We could maybe setup a date. My schedule is up in the air right now but should know more this coming week.

Are you saying these guys couldn't hit the broadside of your house?.....

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Are you saying these guys couldn't hit the broadside of your house?.....

I think one can and one can't. Have to shoot from inside the house just to be safe. Lol. Barn might not be safe. Might be better to go to neighbors range and shoot his house.

[twofifty]

Here's a youtube of a guy taking down five rams at 500 metres, offhand,
at the NRA championships. In the youtube search line, type:

Long Range Steel Target Shooting - 5 Rams from 500 meters