Shot placement question

[209x50]

High shoulder everytime for me.

[Mike_W]

Shoulder shot for animals I don't intend to eat.....I don't hunt those kind.
Other than that behind the shoulder = dead bled out animal with minimal meat wastage, I have hit an animal in the shoulder by accident and I was not impressed with the meat damage and waste. Only shot a meat hunter should take is the one that waste the least amount of meat. Head shots are sweet nice clean animal just not a high percentage shot.

My 2 cents
MIke

[aulrich]

As for the OP I would be breaking at least one shoulder on dangerous game but I have only hunted Black bears and I consider them to be "of consern" and not dangerous.

As a rule my normal hunting I am a heart/lung sort of guy but high shoulder is used when the game is close to a fence line or something deep and steep.

Ideal dangerous, quartering away where I can take both lungs and the off shoulder.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I had a client tell me that, almost word for word. The next day I watched as he fired three shots at a Black Bear. Broke both front legs, blew out one shoulder blade and drilled a huge hole through the upper neck.
I had to finish that Bear off. I carried a 30-06, he a 375 H&H Magnum.

It seems to me that a lot of folks put a lot of faith in one shot based on one or two lucky shots. While others put their faith in hand held cannons.
I put my faith in close range and careful shot placement.

But as I said, I'm not a professional.

How about you?

LOL! Notice you didn't comment on any of the distance shooting and state that you're an up close shooter.
The fact that you write about a client for a black bear hunt tells me that the shooter probably did not have a whole lot of experience. That your client could break both front legs, 1 shoulder, put a huge hole in the neck.... and you still had to finish it off confirms that they could not shoot!
Professional? NO! Born and raised Northern Alberta farmer / oilfield / hunter. Put more than a few animals down over 30yrs of hunting. Certainly not 1 or 2 lucky shots.

[Mountain Guy]

I've never hunted ''dangerous'' game either..that being grizzly or polar bears.
I would go with the shot that I know..... heart/lung behind shoulder.
I have no concern tracking a ''dead'' animal hundred yards or so...

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I've never hunted ''dangerous'' game either..that being grizzly or polar bears.
I would go with the shot that I know..... heart/lung behind shoulder.
I have no concern tracking a ''dead'' animal hundred yards or so...

That's the shots I go for. The OP was concerning dangerous game. The last black bear I shot was with my 22-250. 20yds, in the side of the head as he wouldn't leave the yard and that gun happened to be in my pick up.
When I reload I use Sierra Matchking bullets. High accuracy and those hollow points do massive shock damage and nothing I have shot with them has gone anywhere. I shot a white tail buck years back with my 300 Wby and hollow point. He fell over sideways without even kicking. Bone/bullet fragments went up and struck the spine taking out the heart at the same time.

[leo]

Shoulder or shoulders depending on shot angle. This pretty much shreds the lungs too.

[whitetailhntr]

Originally Posted by 209x50

High shoulder everytime for me.

What he said.The whole wasting meat thing is a moot point if you can find your game.

[Robmcleod82]

As far as dangerous game goes in alberta the only one I have shot was a buffalo. I took the center chest shot completely destroyed the heart and it just stood there looking at me and he didnt even realize he was dead. I then followed with several rounds in the lungs and after a couple minutes he layed down. This was with a 300 win mag running some hot rounds at 200 yards. If I ever get another chance at a buffalo it will be one in the brain followed by one in the spine, I have seen this done and it works well.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by equanuck

LOL! Notice you didn't comment on any of the distance shooting and state that you're an up close shooter.
The fact that you write about a client for a black bear hunt tells me that the shooter probably did not have a whole lot of experience. That your client could break both front legs, 1 shoulder, put a huge hole in the neck.... and you still had to finish it off confirms that they could not shoot!
Professional? NO! Born and raised Northern Alberta farmer / oilfield / hunter. Put more than a few animals down over 30yrs of hunting. Certainly not 1 or 2 lucky shots.

I have said many times that I am a 200 yards and less hunter.

You jump to a lot of false conclusions. The man was as experienced as any average hunter.
And it was not a Black Bear hunt. It was a Moose hunt, we happened upon a Bear and he had a tag. In fact it was his tenth annual Moose hunt with this outfitter.
I would not be the least surprised to find that he had taken as much or more game then you have.

You are right, he could not shoot with "that" gun. With other guns he was a crack shot. He was afraid of "that" gun. We called him Big Mike, stood 6'4" weighed in around 280. Not a little wimp, but afraid of that gun none the less.

And by the way, the words used in the OP were, potentially dangerous.
Deer can be dangerous. They have the potential.

Some would laugh at our so called dangerous game. Closest thing we have to dangerous game is Grizzly and last I heard Grizzly hunting is on a very limited basis right now. And it has been that way for a very long time.
Not a lot of folks get to hunt a Griz, legal.

[Robmcleod82]

"And by the way, the words used in the OP were, potentially dangerous.
Deer can be dangerous. They have the potential."
Agreed, remember the video of the guy gettin the crap kicked out of him by a whitetail buck.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

As far as dangerous game goes in alberta the only one I have shot was a buffalo. I took the center chest shot completely destroyed the heart and it just stood there looking at me and he didnt even realize he was dead. I then followed with several rounds in the lungs and after a couple minutes he layed down. This was with a 300 win mag running some hot rounds at 200 yards. If I ever get another chance at a buffalo it will be one in the brain followed by one in the spine, I have seen this done and it works well.

I know what you mean. Not that I have ever hunted Buffalo, but I have seen the same thing with Moose a number of times. It is a bit unnerving at first, but I have learned to just sit quietly and let the shot do it's work.

If I were a good enough shot I would certainly go for the brain shot.
But I don't have much confidence in my ability to hit that small of a target at anything more then point blank ranges.

Good on you if you can do it. I know many of the hunters I know, are capable of it. Ironically they are happy with aiming for the heart.

I should add that I have used the head shot a few times on Bear. But only at 50 yards or less. It does do the job nicely.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

"And by the way, the words used in the OP were, potentially dangerous.
Deer can be dangerous. They have the potential."
Agreed, remember the video of the guy gettin the crap kicked out of him by a whitetail buck.

LOL Yeah! That was hilarious. What an idiot. Didn't he realize that those calls he was making were fighting words to a Deer in rut!

It was like going into a boxing ring, yelling put em up, and then being surprised when the boxer knocks your teeth out.

A neighbour (red neck all the way) did something about as bright.
Bought himself a recording of a Bull Moose calling, for training purposes don't you know. So to make sure it was the real thing, (his story and he's sticking to it), he drives out west, stops on a quiet lease road, pops the tape in his trucks cassette player, turns up the volume, then saunters over to the tree line for a pee and a smoke.
Says he figured it would take half an hour or more to get a response, if any.
Well he was wrong. The Moose caught him in mid stream. Head down it charged, apparently from some distance, as our hero was able, just able, to make it back to his truck, but not inside. He only had time to dive under it.

There he lay while a very angry bull moose trashed the body work on his pickup. When the tape hit it's end the Moose left, at least that's the way he said it went down.

I can't attest to the validity of this story. I present it the way it was presented to me. I like it because I know people who are capable of doing something that dumb.

[Robmcleod82]

That is a great story kegriver and it sounds dumb enough to be true.

[dogslayer403]

personally I think shot placement needs to be determined by what cartridge, bullet, and distance your shooting at. A.300wm with180gr at 350yards sure go for a shoulder. A .243 with 100gr probably not a good idea. There is to many variables to say what the best shot is but with enough gun a shoulder shot is the best bet to stop something in a hurry. Just my opinion.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I had a client tell me that, almost word for word. The next day I watched as he fired three shots at a Black Bear. Broke both front legs, blew out one shoulder blade and drilled a huge hole through the upper neck.
I had to finish that Bear off. I carried a 30-06, he a 375 H&H Magnum.

It seems to me that a lot of folks put a lot of faith in one shot based on one or two lucky shots. While others put their faith in hand held cannons.
I put my faith in close range and careful shot placement.

But as I said, I'm not a professional.

How about you?

Keg, you had a client tell you this and that. Then you claim to not be a professional. Which is it that you want us to believe? Truly bud, if any of your statements are gonna hold water, don't contradict yourself in one and the same thread. Try and spread the BS so that some of us "eagle eyes" don't notice.

[gitrdun]

Shot placement is over rated. Get an SKS for 200 bucks and a whack of ammo the likes of 1100 rounds for another 200 and spray. Shot placement is then a mute subject. Spray and Pray is what I say.....

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

personally I think shot placement needs to be determined by what cartridge, bullet, and distance your shooting at. A.300wm with180gr at 350yards sure go for a shoulder. A .243 with 100gr probably not a good idea. There is to many variables to say what the best shot is but with enough gun a shoulder shot is the best bet to stop something in a hurry. Just my opinion.

I would agree, except that I don't like shoulder shots. They may work well but I think most often, they are un-necessary and wasteful.
I think learning a little patience and self discipline would render that shot placement obsolete for everything except a emergency situation.
In your words, to stop something in a hurry.

But I have no concerns with others using the shot. If they understand the options and variables.

I am concerned that inexperienced hunters may be lead to believe that a shoulder shot is the only shot.

It really is a matter of personal preference. There are in fact four kill zones on an animal. Heart/Lung, Head, Spine, Shoulder.

For a true anchor them on the spot shot, nothing beats a brain shot.
Everything else is a compromise based on personal preference.

IE; "I don't like to or don't know how to track so I'll shoot for the shoulder so the animal will be unable to run."

Or; "I don't like to loose any delicious meat so I'll shoot for the heart/lungs."

Or as is all too often the case. "I'll shoot for the largest patch of hair I see and hope I hit something vital."

Experience has shown me that most of the people who claim to be able to hit ; running animals, animals at 6 or 800 yards, hit the shoulder joint, and such and so forth, are in fact of the final group of hunters.

There are people who can do such things. They know it and feel no need to brag about it.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Shot placement is over rated. Get an SKS for 200 bucks and a whack of ammo the likes of 1100 rounds for another 200 and spray. Shot placement is then a mute subject. Spray and Pray is what I say.....

ROFL Yup, that would work!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Keg, you had a client tell you this and that. Then you claim to not be a professional. Which is it that you want us to believe? Truly bud, if any of your statements are gonna hold water, don't contradict yourself in one and the same thread. Try and spread the BS so that some of us "eagle eyes" don't notice.

Sorry. I was being a little devious there.

Truth is a do not consider myself a professional hunter.
I don't have the sort of experience that someone like Jim Shockey has.
I have no formal training in the matter.

But I do have more experience the the average hunter does. I think.

About the guiding thing, well, let me explain.
The guide thing is something often touted as the realm of professionals.
And maybe in other parts of the World it is, but not here.

Fact is, here, anyone can be a guide. Real hunters know that, fools in easy chairs don't. So I like to toss that in once in a while to see if I dealing with a real hunter or an armchair expert.

[gitrdun]

Fair enough Keg, no worries. Now about shot placement! Overrated. I once shot a WT buck in a brown spot slightly below that big white spot as it was headed east. Can't remember what bullet I used, never mind what weight. Didn't pull out a digital scale to measure retention. Didn't have a camcorder to post it on YouTube. Didn't have a McGowen barrel, nor special bottom metal, a NightForce scope, custom made rings, a GPS, an iPhone to contact deary, a 6500 cc quad with auto reverse, heated boots, an SUV. Heck, as far as I can remember, I shot that WT up the arse with an SMLE .303 jungle carbine that dad got me for $60.00 at Sears in Lethbridge when I was in LCC. Darn it anyways, what a looser.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Fair enough Keg, no worries. Now about shot placement! Overrated. I once shot a WT buck in a brown spot slightly below that big white spot as it was headed east. Can't remember what bullet I used, never mind what weight. Didn't pull out a digital scale to measure retention. Didn't have a camcorder to post it on YouTube. Didn't have a McGowen barrel, nor special bottom metal, a NightForce scope, custom made rings, a GPS, an iPhone to contact deary, a 6500 cc quad with auto reverse, heated boots, an SUV. Heck, as far as I can remember, I shot that WT up the arse with an SMLE .303 jungle carbine that dad got me for $60.00 at Sears in Lethbridge when I was in LCC. Darn it anyways, what a looser.

ROFL That's about the size of it.

[KegRiver]

Years ago I built a sweet little Swedish Mauser sporter for my daughter.
I loaded up some 120gr ammo for her and we went hunting for a Moose.

Soon enough we found four Bulls all standing in a friends field. Take the little one at the end I advised, he'll be the best eating. Aim just behind the front leg about 3/4 down the body I told her.
So she loaded up, took aim and fired. Nothing. I look over and she is standing there holding her broken glasses. Kissed by her rifle.
Well says I, do you think you hit him? I don't know she says.
Okay I say, do it again. This time pay attention to where the cross hairs are at the moment you fire. Maybe you pulled the shot.
So she lines up again and BOOM, down goes the Moose, but I see snow fly above and beyond him. It took a second for me to realize what had happened.

The first shot had been perfect. It just took a few moments to take effect.
Her second shot had gone over his back while he was on his way to the ground. That Moose literally died in his tracks. The ones he made when we first was him.

Sometimes it all comes together. Sometimes things doesn't go as planned.
Each situation is different.

Good shot placement takes into account the rifle, the bullet, the range, the species, the weather, the shooter, the angle to the target and the angle of the target. And other variables.

The way I see it, no one shot is the best shot all the time.
One can wait for the right time for the shot one wants to employ, or one can learn to employ all options effectively. Or as too many hunters do, one can blase away at what they think is the best placement, without any consideration to the variables or the consequences.

Spray and pray!

[name]

no shot no good. then the stalk begins

[equanuck]

The first shot had been perfect. It just took a few moments to take effect.
Her second shot had gone over his back while he was on his way to the ground. That Moose literally died in his tracks. The ones he made when we first was him.

The very last sentence explains everything that you have written thus far. We need to look at everything you have written and translate it to the opposite so that we know what it is you wanted to say.

Just wondering if you believe in dog?

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Sorry. I was being a little devious there.

Truth is a do not consider myself a professional hunter.
I don't have the sort of experience that someone like Jim Shockey has.
I have no formal training in the matter.

But I do have more experience the the average hunter does. I think.

About the guiding thing, well, let me explain.
The guide thing is something often touted as the realm of professionals.
And maybe in other parts of the World it is, but not here.

Fact is, here, anyone can be a guide. Real hunters know that, fools in easy chairs don't. So I like to toss that in once in a while to see if I dealing with a real hunter or an armchair expert.

Average hunter has one season per year. Two if you include spring bear. How much more do you think you have over the average hunter?

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by equanuck

The first shot had been perfect. It just took a few moments to take effect.
Her second shot had gone over his back while he was on his way to the ground. That Moose literally died in his tracks. The ones he made when we first was him.

The very last sentence explains everything that you have written thus far. We need to look at everything you have written and translate it to the opposite so that we know what it is you wanted to say.

Just wondering if you believe in dog?

That was for KegRiver in case anyone was wondering.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I have said many times that I am a 200 yards and less hunter.

You jump to a lot of false conclusions. The man was as experienced as any average hunter.
And it was not a Black Bear hunt. It was a Moose hunt, we happened upon a Bear and he had a tag. In fact it was his tenth annual Moose hunt with this outfitter.
I would not be the least surprised to find that he had taken as much or more game then you have.

You are right, he could not shoot with "that" gun. With other guns he was a crack shot. He was afraid of "that" gun. We called him Big Mike, stood 6'4" weighed in around 280. Not a little wimp, but afraid of that gun none the less.

And by the way, the words used in the OP were, potentially dangerous.
Deer can be dangerous. They have the potential.

Some would laugh at our so called dangerous game. Closest thing we have to dangerous game is Grizzly and last I heard Grizzly hunting is on a very limited basis right now. And it has been that way for a very long time.
Not a lot of folks get to hunt a Griz, legal.

WTF??? You consider 1 (one) conclusion "a lot of false conclusions"????? And then you actually agree that he could not shoot which puts the issue of shot placement at "ZERO"! If you can't hit where you want to then there is really no point in stating where the best place to hit is. Is there????
You cannot argue over the best place to place a shot by using an example of a poor shooter to make your claim.

You might have better luck arguing with the arm chair hunters that you wrote of in your reply to Gitrdun!

[big-river]

Keg River,
You nailed this one. Absolutely.
I am like you, very little hunting experience, only about 45 years. You have the jump on me.
I have killed grizzlies, brown bears, and far far too many black bears to count. Guided many many more.
I hunt with a 30-06 most days.
I have followed far too many blood trails from sports who knew about the magical kill zone in the shoulders, or fellows who figured they could slide one in quartering away up into the off shoulder.
Never followed a lung/heart shot bear very far, and always had good blood to do so.
Did see a couple bears drop instantly from a high shoulder shot, but I saw far more bears leave town on the quick from guys who missed this magic spot with their magnums. By the way, why do we know that a broken shoulder is a wound, and these other fellows figure they will anchor their bear? Don;t they know a bear doesn't hang around long wounded, they can cover ground pronto. So hard to get in a good follow up shot on a running bear. I did see some wounded bears shot thru both shoulders a couple times, pathetic sight, them pushing their front ends with their back ends, trying their best to get away. Seems foolish to shoot them anywhere else except the chest. Plus for those saving meat, the lung shot animals bleed out so much better.
I never did figure out the fuss of all these guys trying to re-invent the wheel and finding new and improved places to shoot animals. Dad tells me that back in his day, there was always some dude trying to tell everyone to shoot their moose in the hump, it would knock it down quick. True enough, but he failed to mention that they would usually leave right after.
Oh well.
Anyways, Keg River, I figure we are right on this issue, but with only about 100 years of hunting experience between us, what the hell would we know anyways?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by big-river

Keg River,
You nailed this one. Absolutely.
I am like you, very little hunting experience, only about 45 years. You have the jump on me.
I have killed grizzlies, brown bears, and far far too many black bears to count. Guided many many more.
I hunt with a 30-06 most days.
I have followed far too many blood trails from sports who knew about the magical kill zone in the shoulders, or fellows who figured they could slide one in quartering away up into the off shoulder.
Never followed a lung/heart shot bear very far, and always had good blood to do so.
Did see a couple bears drop instantly from a high shoulder shot, but I saw far more bears leave town on the quick from guys who missed this magic spot with their magnums. By the way, why do we know that a broken shoulder is a wound, and these other fellows figure they will anchor their bear? Don;t they know a bear doesn't hang around long wounded, they can cover ground pronto. So hard to get in a good follow up shot on a running bear. I did see some wounded bears shot thru both shoulders a couple times, pathetic sight, them pushing their front ends with their back ends, trying their best to get away. Seems foolish to shoot them anywhere else except the chest. Plus for those saving meat, the lung shot animals bleed out so much better.
I never did figure out the fuss of all these guys trying to re-invent the wheel and finding new and improved places to shoot animals. Dad tells me that back in his day, there was always some dude trying to tell everyone to shoot their moose in the hump, it would knock it down quick. True enough, but he failed to mention that they would usually leave right after.
Oh well.
Anyways, Keg River, I figure we are right on this issue, but with only about 100 years of hunting experience between us, what the hell would we know anyways?

I like the way you write ! You have a way with words.
I may have a few years on you but I suspect you have more experience then I do, at least more hunting experience.

I know I'm right, problem is I'm not very good at presenting my thoughts into words, not on paper and not in person.

Thing is I know shoulder shots work. Sometimes. So do heart/lung shots.
It seems to me that one is best served by choosing the shot to suit the situation.

I realize that the OP was really looking to get people to say that a shoulder shot with a super magnum would be the choice they would make.

That is all well and good for armchair hunting. But in the real world things seldom go according to plan.
My point is, in the real world you had better be flexible if things get ugly or you are going to be in a heap of trouble.

Let me tell you, when you have a bear coming at you from fifty feet out, there isn't a lot of time for shot placement, and you might well have the wrong gun in hand if your only way of dealing with such animals is with a canon without wheals.

I'll tell you all something else. when it happens, you won't even know if that bear is a yearling or the biggest bear you ever saw. You have time to shoot and nothing else. I stopped him, but it wasn't with a well placed shot. The shot was instinctive. I take no credit for where that bullet hit.