Are you for or against Universal Heath Care

[762Russian]

Originally Posted by hal53

What part of this can you not fathom?????...the Universal system takes care of the everyday things...you choose to have more visits, you buy insurance to cover it or pay for it...you are diagnosed with a catasrophic illness, the nanny state kicks in.....fairly simple.

What part of 'Catastrophic sicknesses are magnitudes more expensive to treat than simple doctor's visits' don't YOU get?

What if a person CANNOT afford those extra visits?

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by 762Russian

Catastrophic coverage will not help. If anything, it could make it worse.

If the average person cannot afford to visit the doctor while things are still in the mild stages, guess what happens when they go critical? Three week stay trying to recover, when all they would have needed early on was a prescription and a friggin' lollypop.

Yes, I guess you're right. Too much to expect people to take responsibility for themselves or their children these days. Good point.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Going down from what though? The last 3 years have been a drunken orgy of massive spending. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li0no...layer_embedded

Recucing spending from those levels means nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US...near_graph.svg

I think you can not blame any government current or past any more or any less. To say the Republicans would of done differently...based upon historic Republican spending that would be false.

Pre 1975...Republicans were good. Now...just as bad.

http://www.davemanuel.com/2010/06/20...-1960-to-2010/

Year Party Inflation adjusted spending increase
1960 R -1.65
1961 D 4.99
1962 D 8.25
1963 D 2.76
1964 D 5.13
1965 D -1.82
1966 D 10.65
1967 D 13.55
1968 D 8.59
1969 R -2.2
1970 R 0.77
1971 R 2.81
1972 R 6.48
1973 R 0.15
1974 R -1.16
1975 R 13
1976 R 5.77
1977 D 3.42
1978 D 3.96
1979 D -1.05
1980 D 3.13
1981 R 3.86
1982 R 3.95
1983 R 5.02
1984 R 1.02
1985 R 6.85
1986 R 3.09
1987 R -2.21
1988 R 1.58
1989 R 2.76
1990 R 3.92
1991 R 1.23
1992 R 1.05
1993 D -0.63
1994 D 0.95
1995 D 0.85
1996 D 0.05
1997 D 0.37
1998 D 1.68
1999 D 0.67
2000 D 1.88
2001 R 0.83
2002 R 6.18
2003 R 5.62
2004 R 3.46
2005 R 4.06
2006 R 4.5
2007 R -0.08
2008 R 5.14
2009 D 17.94
2010 D 4.72
2011 D 3.04
2012 D -2.06

Except for the 2009 disaster and anomalous 17.94% increase ..Democrats have not been that far off base. The country wanted the spending...sure they pay the price but over all spending has been rising nicely under the Republicans also. Also under Obama they have been dropping spending sharply after 2009. Everyone blames the current government for anything they do. Don't spend enough...Spend too much. All relative. Lose/lose position.

[762Russian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Yes, I guess you're right. Too much to expect people to take responsibility for themselves or their children these days. Good point.

Yeah, to hell with those people and their children, what with not having the skills to get a high-paying job, or having to suffer from a disability or injury that makes them unable to afford anything.

We should just let all of them die right?

You're all heart man. Right up there with the sociopaths.

[Sundancefisher]

come on people.

friendly discussion.

It is an interesting topic...please don't force the mods to shut it down through insults.

If you don't like what someone posts...ignore them.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Going down from what though? The last 3 years have been a drunken orgy of massive spending.

Recucing spending from those levels means nothing.

2002 R 6.18
2003 R 5.62
2004 R 3.46
2005 R 4.06
2006 R 4.5
2007 R -0.08
2008 R 5.14
2009 D 17.94
2010 D 4.72
2011 D 3.04
2012 D -2.06

last 11 years

Republicans increased spending cumulative 28.43% (over 7 years)

Democrats with 2009 included 23.64% with a decreasing trend (over 4 years). If democrats decreasing spending trend continues again by 2% in the next 3 years they would be at 17.64% over 7 years compared to the Republicans 28.43% over 7 years. Remove the 2009 financial collapse and they would be at zero increase over 7 years.

You say that is failing?

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

2002 R 6.18
2003 R 5.62
2004 R 3.46
2005 R 4.06
2006 R 4.5
2007 R -0.08
2008 R 5.14
2009 D 17.94
2010 D 4.72
2011 D 3.04
2012 D -2.06

last 11 years

Republicans increased spending cumulative 28.43% (over 7 years)

Democrats with 2009 included 23.64% with a decreasing trend (over 4 years). If democrats decreasing spending trend continues again by 2% in the next 3 years they would be at 17.64% over 7 years compared to the Republicans 28.43% over 7 years. Remove the 2009 financial collapse and they would be at zero increase over 7 years.

You say that is failing?

the us budget is set a year ahead of time so the 2009 budget is the republican's aswell.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

the us budget is set a year ahead of time so the 2009 budget is the republican's aswell.

I put up all the budget increases so at least the facts are out there.

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Yes, I guess you're right. Too much to expect people to take responsibility for themselves or their children these days. Good point.

Actually, here is a personal story that could illustrate how routine medical care can save plenty of money and grief later.

When I was newly and very much unexpectedly a single mom, I really struggled to provide for my son. I was left with the mortgage, all the debt, and all of the child costs. (I eventually received child support later, but it took a while and it took the help of the government to get it.)

Anyway, I had left my full-time job permanently as a decision my partner and I had made so that I could care for my son. With our wages, paying daycare didn't justify what I would earn while also being away from my child. I worked part-time to supplement our income.

Of course, when I gave up the job, I gave up our health benefits.
Anyway, I really, really struggled for the first few months after he left. Our son was six months old at the time. I worked as many jobs as I could manage. I was exhausted, but I never missed a mortgage payment. I never received a penny of social assistance.

My son was lactose intolerant and I had to feed him with soy formula, which is much more expensive, and that was a real struggle too.

The lowest point of my life came when I ran out of formula three days before payday. I went to the food bank, and I brought whatever remained of my canned and dry food supplies with me. I refused to give them my name, and I insisted on trading them the food I brought for the formula I took with me. (I knew the value of it, of course.)

I bawled like a baby when I got back to the car with it. It was truly horrible.

We carried on like that for a few months and slowly started to get back on our feet. I had found a full-time job in my field, and I qualified for subsidized daycare. I still worked part-time at a restaurant whenever I could, but we were definitely coming along.

And then I had an even better stroke of luck - I found a way better job, though it took me out of the news realm of media and put me in advertising sales. But it meant much more money.

The weekend before I was supposed to start there, I became very ill. So was my son. God, we were so sick. We got to a walk-in clinic, and were both given prescriptions for antibiotics.

I went to go and fill them, and I only had enough to fill my son's. Filling mine was never even a consideration. I was so embarrassed. And the worst part was I would have had enough had I not bought a new outfit for my job interview. (Though I really did need it.)

Anyway, my son got better, I did not.
And then, because of the whole new job thing, it was a long time before I got paid again. At the time, I actually thought I was feeling better, but the infection has just travelled, I guess. My first few weeks at that job are a fog when I look back on it and I would never have dreamed of calling in sick.

My fourth week in, I ended up in the hospital with viral meningitis because my system was so weak. I had to miss two days of work, I was away from my son, and at first we did not know whether it was viral, or the potentially deadly bacterial variety. Very scary.

And all because of a $30 drug prescription. And I swear on my life I was doing the very best I could to take responsibility for myself and my son.

Sometimes sh*t just happens, and it doesn't mean that people asked for it.

[darius]

those numbers clearly show gov spending increases whilst tax revenue in the us decreases .

im no economist and I can see the problem

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I put up all the budget increases so at least the facts are out there.

right wingers are alergic to facts that don't suit thier agenda.

obama is a big spender and got handed a burning bag of dog s^%t, he ended iraq which was good, george w bush was a big spender on wars and farm subsidies and bridges to nowhere and other buying off elections, bill clinton reduced the defecit and was better on spending that both of the above, but guys like rug want to stick there head in the sand and plug there ears when you bring up facts that the right wing did wrong.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

Actually, here is a personal story that could illustrate how routine medical care can save plenty of money and grief later.

When I was newly and very much unexpectedly a single mom, I really struggled to provide for my son. I was left with the mortgage, all the debt, and all of the child costs. (I eventually received child support later, but it took a while and it took the help of the government to get it.)

Anyway, I had left my full-time job permanently as a decision my partner and I had made so that I could care for my son. With our wages, paying daycare didn't justify what I would earn while also being away from my child. I worked part-time to supplement our income.

Of course, when I gave up the job, I gave up our health benefits.
Anyway, I really, really struggled for the first few months after he left. Our son was six months old at the time. I worked as many jobs as I could manage. I was exhausted, but I never missed a mortgage payment. I never received a penny of social assistance.

My son was lactose intolerant and I had to feed him with soy formula, which is much more expensive, and that was a real struggle too.

The lowest point of my life came when I ran out of formula three days before payday. I went to the food bank, and I brought whatever remained of my canned and dry food supplies with me. I refused to give them my name, and I insisted on trading them the food I brought for the formula I took with me. (I knew the value of it, of course.)

I bawled like a baby when I got back to the car with it. It was truly horrible.

We carried on like that for a few months and slowly started to get back on our feet. I had found a full-time job in my field, and I qualified for subsidized daycare. I still worked part-time at a restaurant whenever I could, but we were definitely coming along.

And then I had an even better stroke of luck - I found a way better job, though it took me out of the news realm of media and put me in advertising sales. But it meant much more money.

The weekend before I was supposed to start there, I became very ill. So was my son. God, we were so sick. We got to a walk-in clinic, and were both given prescriptions for antibiotics.

I went to go and fill them, and I only had enough to fill my son's. Filling mine was never even a consideration. I was so embarrassed. And the worst part was I would have had enough had I not bought a new outfit for my job interview. (Though I really did need it.)

Anyway, my son got better, I did not.
And then, because of the whole new job thing, it was a long time before I got paid again. At the time, I actually thought I was feeling better, but the infection has just travelled, I guess. My first few weeks at that job are a fog when I look back on it and I would never have dreamed of calling in sick.

My fourth week in, I ended up in the hospital with viral meningitis because my system was so weak. I had to miss two days of work, I was away from my son, and at first we did not know whether it was viral, or the potentially deadly bacterial variety. Very scary.

And all because of a $30 drug prescription. And I swear on my life I was doing the very best I could to take responsibility for myself and my son.

Sometimes sh*t just happens, and it doesn't mean that people asked for it.

Wow..that is scary.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by darius

those numbers clearly show gov spending increases whilst tax revenue in the us decreases .

im no economist and I can see the problem

the us debt started going up exponentially when reghan cut the top tax rates, all the charts and graphs say the same thing the debt exploded in the early 80's went down a little under clinton and back up with avengence from 2000-now.

[darius]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

Actually, here is a personal story that could illustrate how routine medical care can save plenty of money and grief later.

When I was newly and very much unexpectedly a single mom, I really struggled to provide for my son. I was left with the mortgage, all the debt, and all of the child costs. (I eventually received child support later, but it took a while and it took the help of the government to get it.)

Anyway, I had left my full-time job permanently as a decision my partner and I had made so that I could care for my son. With our wages, paying daycare didn't justify what I would earn while also being away from my child. I worked part-time to supplement our income.

Of course, when I gave up the job, I gave up our health benefits.
Anyway, I really, really struggled for the first few months after he left. Our son was six months old at the time. I worked as many jobs as I could manage. I was exhausted, but I never missed a mortgage payment. I never received a penny of social assistance.

My son was lactose intolerant and I had to feed him with soy formula, which is much more expensive, and that was a real struggle too.

The lowest point of my life came when I ran out of formula three days before payday. I went to the food bank, and I brought whatever remained of my canned and dry food supplies with me. I refused to give them my name, and I insisted on trading them the food I brought for the formula I took with me. (I knew the value of it, of course.)

I bawled like a baby when I got back to the car with it. It was truly horrible.

We carried on like that for a few months and slowly started to get back on our feet. I had found a full-time job in my field, and I qualified for subsidized daycare. I still worked part-time at a restaurant whenever I could, but we were definitely coming along.

And then I had an even better stroke of luck - I found a way better job, though it took me out of the news realm of media and put me in advertising sales. But it meant much more money.

The weekend before I was supposed to start there, I became very ill. So was my son. God, we were so sick. We got to a walk-in clinic, and were both given prescriptions for antibiotics.

I went to go and fill them, and I only had enough to fill my son's. Filling mine was never even a consideration. I was so embarrassed. And the worst part was I would have had enough had I not bought a new outfit for my job interview. (Though I really did need it.)

Anyway, my son got better, I did not.
And then, because of the whole new job thing, it was a long time before I got paid again. At the time, I actually thought I was feeling better, but the infection has just travelled, I guess. My first few weeks at that job are a fog when I look back on it and I would never have dreamed of calling in sick.

My fourth week in, I ended up in the hospital with viral meningitis because my system was so weak. I had to miss two days of work, I was away from my son, and at first we did not know whether it was viral, or the potentially deadly bacterial variety. Very scary.

And all because of a $30 drug prescription. And I swear on my life I was doing the very best I could to take responsibility for myself and my son.

Sometimes sh*t just happens, and it doesn't mean that people asked for it.

great story , obviously a tough gal and you got it done , hats off to you .

your story should be a wake up call for those that are in a different situation and judge and think every one should just be able to pay .

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by darius

those numbers clearly show gov spending increases whilst tax revenue in the us decreases .

im no economist and I can see the problem

not sure if you are making a point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US...near_graph.svg

Looking at the actual US GDP growth versus Federal spending graph above...looks like you are wrong and GDP is growing and tax is tied to GDP? Blaming spending in 2009 following the the financial debacle after the previous 8 successive years of Republican governing...seems hypocritical. You can't blame the Democrats on the financial disaster brought on by Republican market free for alls? Would you not think? So outside of that...ALL governments were increasing spending about the same pace with a bit more by the Republicans.

Sorry...just looking at the facts

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by darius

great story , obviously a tough gal and you got it done , hats off to you .

your story should be a wake up call for those that are in a different situation and judge and think every one should just be able to pay .

Thanks.

Kind of humiliating to share it, but I really think that sometimes we need to share context in order to bridge to common ground.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Regular Joe taxes are not lower in the US than in Canada. I have compared taxes with friends in Denver, Houston and chatted with some in Hawaii and Washington. Their per capita spending on health care is close to twice that of the rest of the western World. Their debt is scary.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Anyone that thinks that the US way is the best way...ummm...look at the total debt...total debt per person/family... YIKES

So now the Republicans say...decrease tax revenue...see that debt clock increase. At least under Obama the spending is decreasing but successive previous Republican and Democrat governments racked up lots of interest debt.

So back to your thought of lower the taxes...make health care the US style and we save our money...does not compute.

Make it a profit center and see the costs rise like in the US. If the average US citizen spends over $5000 on health care per year...insurance companies are not going to insure you for $100 a month unless you are not getting certain coverage. If our taxes in Canada are similar to the US yet the Americans also pay for their own insurance...how are we so poor off?

The average U.S. citizen has consumptive power that is 30 percent higher than the average Canadian

The U.S. currently has the best health care in North America.

B.O. wants health care socialized. That will reduce comsuptive power and the innovation that results in a free market society.

My world extends beyond knowing someone in Denver and Texas.

BTW. Texas may have no sales tax but makes it up in property taxes.

If health care becomes privatized in Alberta, I want to see a heck of a big tax discount to both the personal and corporate sectors.

Another way to get more money into the health sector is to start cleaning up the Education expenses in this province and start making school teachers working for wages comparable to the U.S.

Then this province will prosper, and prosper if you want to work instead of waiting for a cheque.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

the us debt started going up exponentially when reghan cut the top tax rates, all the charts and graphs say the same thing the debt exploded in the early 80's went down a little under clinton and back up with avengence from 2000-now.

Exactly...but please stop with the facts...with both of us doing that you are going to scare away Republican supporters.

My point is that both governments spend. Republicans however ruined the economy and brought on the 2009 crash...again...based upon the data. Would you agree?

And is this in fact happening? Are we agreeing?

[762Russian]

Originally Posted by greylynx

Then this province will prosper, and prosper if you want to work instead of waiting for a cheque.

Right up until you get sick and your insurance company kicks you out the door.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by greylynx

The average U.S. citizen has consumptive power that is 30 percent higher than the average Canadian

The U.S. currently has the best health care in North America. Canada is well known as a health care leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy shows life expectancy which is a direct indicator of healthcare.

Canada Overall is 80.7 years, male 78.3 years and female 82.9 year
US overall 78.3 years, male 75.6 years and female 80.8 years.

Propaganda by HMO's may state one thing but facts are you live longer in Canada.

B.O. wants health care socialized. That will reduce comsuptive power and the innovation that results in a free market society. Again...US spends twice on health care with similar taxes.

My world extends beyond knowing someone in Denver and Texas.

BTW. Texas may have no sales tax but makes it up in property taxes.

If health care becomes privatized in Alberta, I want to see a heck of a big tax discount to both the private and corporate sectors. Sure let's drop taxes...jack up our insurance premiums by paying for services to make a profit...jack up debt like the US...then when you get sick...lose it all to a hospital...or better yet...your kids get sick...but treatment is against the best interest of shareholders...maybe they can stall out till he dies...then another child gets sick but your insurance is gone...what do you do when insurance does not cover it? Ops...your wife got pregnant but her coverage expires next week.

Another way to get more money into the health sector is to start cleaning up the Education expenses in this province and start making school teachers working for wages comparable to the U.S. Different topic...but attacking one group at the expense of another is a common political ploy. Play two groups off against each other and step back

Then this province will prosper, and prosper if you want to work instead of waiting for a cheque. I know of way more people that want to work...there are always going to be slugs but I am not going to punish people working who are not making enough to pay for health care for their family. In Hawaii...they need a minimum number of hours to legally get health care from employers. So employers keep them 1 hour under the limit and just hire more part timers. Big complaint there. Still...you can't sit by and just let people, men, women, children die just because they don't meet a certain level of quality worker...otherwise...maybe someone harder working than you may feel your life is worthless. I don't look down on people that make less than me...cause there is always someone above you unless your name is Bill Gates...and he gives more to help people in one day than you will make in your lifetime. Maybe he should have a say in your life?

response in red

[darius]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

not sure if you are making a point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US...near_graph.svg

Looking at the actual US GDP growth versus Federal spending graph above...looks like you are wrong and GDP is growing and tax is tied to GDP? Blaming spending in 2009 following the the financial debacle after the previous 8 successive years of Republican governing...seems hypocritical. You can't blame the Democrats on the financial disaster brought on by Republican market free for alls? Would you not think? So outside of that...ALL governments were increasing spending about the same pace with a bit more by the Republicans.

Sorry...just looking at the facts

i was saying tax revenue is out of step with gov spending , $15.5 T in debt clearly shows this .

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by 762Russian

Right up until you get sick and your insurance company kicks you out the door.

When all the money has been spent where are you going to get more Komrad?

More taxes Komrad? Is that the way to go? tax tax tax.

Unfortunately political correctness does not allow me to mention how a major reduction in our health care system can occur.

It is about time the people who paid for the system can use it, and others who have not pay for it.

I will probably be banned for saying this horrible statement.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by darius

i was saying tax revenue is out of step with gov spending , $15.5 T in debt clearly shows this .

And I am saying tax revenue is tied to GDP... but unfortunately the massive unemployment caused by the Republican economic crash left many unemployed. When that happens you still have the people needing roads, schools, hospitals, police, firefighting etc. Services don't just stop...just like you can't just stop eating. You can stop eating out...eating fancy...but there is a delay as things wind down and change direction. A government is a massive, massive company and change is slow obviously.

After 2009...Obama has been decreasing spending. Now spending has decreased and is no longer growing.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by 762Russian

Yeah, to hell with those people and their children, what with not having the skills to get a high-paying job, or having to suffer from a disability or injury that makes them unable to afford anything.

We should just let all of them die right?

You're all heart man. Right up there with the sociopaths.

First of all, I have no problem with the government helping people that truly need help. Arachnodisiacs story clearly illustrates a point where the gov should have covered her drug costs and I would have zero problem with that. Too many people show up for free health care for problems that just don't exist or don't require a hospital visit (colds, flu, etc) ...I have a couple friends (who are doctors) that complain about it all the time.

And yes in fact, I am all heart, because I can see that if we continue down the path we are on the entire system is unsustainable.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by greylynx

When all the money has been spent where are you going to get more Komrad?

More taxes Komrad? Is that the way to go? tax tax tax.

Unfortunately political correctness does not allow me to mention how a major reduction in our health care system can occur.

It is about time the people who paid for the system can use it, and others who have not pay for it.

I will probably be banned for saying this horrible statement.

No but saying someone out of work should just die kinda...ignores Arachnodisiac's example. But maybe that is not what you meant.

And seriously...need to start calling people less than subtle names? Please don't get this shut down...

If you can not discuss nicely...leave.

Thanks

Sun

[avb3]

Whether healthcare is publically or privately funded, the best measure is the percentage of GDP spent and the outcomes obtained.

Canada wins by far.

U.S spends about 15.3% of its GDP on healthcare, Canada 10%. These are 2006 figures, I believe now it is something like 20% and 13%.

Life expectancy? U.S. is in 50th place in the world, Canada in 12th. Reference CIA factbook.

So, for those of you who want U.S. style healthcare, I have one question.

Really?

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

And I am saying tax revenue is tied to GDP... but unfortunately the massive unemployment caused by the Republican economic crash left many unemployed. When that happens you still have the people needing roads, schools, hospitals, police, firefighting etc. Services don't just stop...just like you can't just stop eating. You can stop eating out...eating fancy...but there is a delay as things wind down and change direction. A government is a massive, massive company and change is slow obviously.

After 2009...Obama has been decreasing spending. Now spending has decreased and is no longer growing.

I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this again. How did the Republicans cause the economic crash?? Matt Taibbi...not going to even bother posting the link anymore...google it if you really want to know. AND the Democrats controlled spending from 2006 on when they took control of the house.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by avb3

Whether healthcare is publically or privately funded, the best measure is the percentage of GDP spent and the outcomes obtained.

Canada wins by far.

U.S spends about 15.3% of its GDP on healthcare, Canada 10%. These are 2006 figures, I believe now it is something like 20% and 13%.

Life expectancy? U.S. is in 50th place in the world, Canada in 12th. Reference CIA factbook.

So, for those of you who want U.S. style healthcare, I have one question.

Really?

There is a lot wrong with US style healthcare and a lot of it lies with government regulation of insurance industry. To hold them up as THE example of private health care is not really fair. At any rate, Canada is one of few countries that has a totally socialized system of healthcare, most other countries have a hybrid system. All I know, is the path we are on with our current healthcare system is not sustainable and major changes need to be made sooner than later.

Unfortunately, health care like so many other things costs money. Doctors don't work for free, nor do nurses, radiologists, or MRI techs, and hospitals don't build themselves. Some major efficiencies need to be found in the system, (which is highly unlikely given the progress in that area in the last 20 or so years), or cuts to services will have to occur. (and I would argue we are already seeing cuts to services, with waiting lines, shortage of family docs, etc etc etc.

[greylynx]

I am sorry Mister Russian. I will never call you Komrad again even though I have had relatives murdered who were part of the 23million under Lazar Kaganovich who wore the same star as your avatar.

I am very very sorry for insulting you.

Mr. Sundancer:

I am also very very sorry because I do not agree with you. I will never never argue with you or any moderator again. You moderators will now become my friends that I will glorify and praise.

Thank you Mr Sundancer for allowing me on this forum. I will now be your most humble servant.

I was so very stupid to argue with a moderator.



Thank you Thank you God bless you sir

[beansgunsghandi]

I lived for almost ten years in the USA. Loved it, had a great time, learned a lot. I was young and had a catastrophic health insurance policy for my high-risk sports, that was it, then excellent insurance through my job that I co-payed 100/month for or something, reasonable. When I quit my job to start a new business I had to pay the full cost of the insurance, which was something like $300/month for a healthy young buck, still tolerable. But then my insurance wouldn't cover me for some of the sports I do, and wouldn't cover a knee injury because it was "pre-existing." I paid for MRIs etc out of pocket, several thousand dollars despite already paying 3k/year +. Eventually I moved back home to Canada, and got a whole bunch of stuff taken care that I had just put off in the US. My brother still lives down there, and pays over $1800/month for family insurance that's not as good as my insurance here. We buy asthma drugs here in Canada for his son and bring them down to him because they cost way less here, and my brother's insurance won't cover the drugs because, yep, his son's asthma is a pre-existing condition... My brother is one bad asthma attack and hospital stay from being broke, that's US health care for you.

When my American friends, especially those with families, hear about what I pay and what my family gets they are almost always envious, we have it good here. If you're working at a really high-end job with great benefits and no pre-existing conditions for you or your family then the US healthcare system rocks. Otherwise it pretty much sucks.

And yet so many Canadians and Americans blast the Canadian system. They have bought into the for-profit propaganda... Our system isn't perfect, but it is truly one of the great things about Canada. So I'm fully for universal health care, and that's even ignoring the economic arguments for it! I simply can't see why anyone would be for a US system, it's a waste of money compared to what we have here, and it sucks if you're an active person like many of us on here are--if you've ever had any sort of injury or health issue forget about getting covered in the US. Although it looks like Obama has made some progress there, despite the idiocy of many.