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  #91  
Old 11-20-2017, 12:57 AM
normstad normstad is offline
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Originally Posted by HyperMOA View Post
There isn't one near Regina. So I guess you can take one path from Edmonton to Florida. I hope you didn't plan on seeing Iowa I guess.
Going through Montana is not the worst thing in the world. The point is, already there is an infrastructure in place that one doesn't have to be concerned. Tesla is going to increasing that infrastructure.

One sure sees a lot of them in Arizona and California. Imagine all that A/C that needs to be run, and does. Are they answer for every situation? Not yet, but don't be surprised to see many electric vehicles on the road within 10 years. Want free power? Put in a solar panel at home.
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  #92  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:04 AM
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Well I can. A close friend has a Tesla with the 85KWH battery. He regularly travels from North Van to Vernon to ski. He stops in Hope to get a coffee and at the same time plugs into a super charger while he's getting his coffee and then drives to Silver Star resort.He then plugs into the outside outlet everyone uses for their block heaters. He says it's the best winter vehicle he's ever driven.
It strikes me as rather immoral to be powering up wherever these drivers find an outlet on someone else's building. At Tesla charge points sure it's perfectly fine, but that's not the case everywhere; someone else winds up paying for their energy consumption. Those things must be a freeloaders dream car..... Not a lot different morally comparing that to to siphoning from someone else's tanks in the dead of night. Who even needs to plug in their vehicle anymore? Those can be set on timers to kick in 20-30 minutes before starting the vehicle so as not to waste power unnecessarily overnight. I suspect the Tesla crowd rationalizes "Well anybody else could be plugged in there all night and blah, blah, blah so I'm not stealing". But it is, and they are. If nobody else is plugged in because the weather is anywhere from -12 to plus 35 they are stealing if they are plugged in during those temperatures because nobody with a gas or diesel vehicle is plugged in then. Block heaters are there for extreme temp use, not for refueling. It not the intent to provide free energy where there is not even any road maintenance taxes buried in the energy cost. Now there's another freeloading aspect! Where's my burning pitchfork??

Pretty soon people will have to lock up or entirely remove their outdoor outlets to curtail electricity thieves. If they throw on credit card/debit actuated meters then that would be a fair solution for both parties. The brazen power theft by people who could obviously afford to pay for said power just rubs me the wrong way. Now just like with dedicated bicycle lanes and dedicated car share service parking there will need to be more 'special people' parking spots for those charging their EV's.

I'm gonna harangue JT's son or daughter for reparations when the Liberals appoint one of them PM in 32 years.
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  #93  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:20 AM
hilt134 hilt134 is offline
 
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The charge time must be terrible. Not to mention that the battery packs still up aren't up for long term and that is a huge replacement cost. I also would enjoy to know how bad the production of these trucks are to the environment. Personally I do not like Tesla at all. I think the only way to make electric cars viable is to make them dirt cheap.
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  #94  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:30 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
It strikes me as rather immoral to be powering up wherever these drivers find an outlet on someone else's building. At Tesla charge points sure it's perfectly fine, but that's not the case everywhere; someone else winds up paying for their energy consumption. Those things must be a freeloaders dream car..... Not a lot different morally comparing that to to siphoning from someone else's tanks in the dead of night. Who even needs to plug in their vehicle anymore? Those can be set on timers to kick in 20-30 minutes before starting the vehicle so as not to waste power unnecessarily overnight. I suspect the Tesla crowd rationalizes "Well anybody else could be plugged in there all night and blah, blah, blah so I'm not stealing". But it is, and they are. If nobody else is plugged in because the weather is anywhere from -12 to plus 35 they are stealing if they are plugged in during those temperatures because nobody with a gas or diesel vehicle is plugged in then. Block heaters are there for extreme temp use, not for refueling. It not the intent to provide free energy where there is not even any road maintenance taxes buried in the energy cost. Now there's another freeloading aspect! Where's my burning pitchfork??

Pretty soon people will have to lock up or entirely remove their outdoor outlets to curtail electricity thieves. If they throw on credit card/debit actuated meters then that would be a fair solution for both parties. The brazen power theft by people who could obviously afford to pay for said power just rubs me the wrong way. Now just like with dedicated bicycle lanes and dedicated car share service parking there will need to be more 'special people' parking spots for those charging their EV's.

I'm gonna harangue JT's son or daughter for reparations when the Liberals appoint one of them PM in 32 years.
A little dramatic comparing plugging in to stealing gas from a vehicle in the middle of the night. Hotels are providing plug ins in the same way as they provide free breakfasts, newspapers or internet services. If you don't have a EV plug in that Tesla owner will stay at a different hotel that does provides one.
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  #95  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Ford is talking about a hybrid half ton in the next 2 years or so, looks like that is the next vehicle I buy, if I can plug in at the school for free!

I work at a school board,we turn the circuit breakers off to all the charging stations (charging stations are a Leeds requirement ). The outside car plugs only get turned on at minus 18 for a 30 minute period every 90 minutes during school hours.
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  #96  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:06 AM
normstad normstad is offline
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A little dramatic comparing plugging in to stealing gas from a vehicle in the middle of the night. Hotels are providing plug ins in the same way as they provide free breakfasts, newspapers or internet services. If you don't have a EV plug in that Tesla owner will stay at a different hotel that does provides one.
Exactly. In fact, most of the destination charging stations are at hotels. It is a benefit that is just like wifi. Hotels used to charge for it, today to be competitive, it has be free. It is a competitive advantage to have those chargers at those hotels.

The reality is that electric vehicles are real, they are here, and their use is growing. The GM Volt is almost as common as a Tesla in some US markets. All the major manufacturers have either existing models, or planned models, to be available.

BMW, Volkswagen, GM, Ford, Fiat, and Mercedes are already in this field. Does anyone think that billions are being invested by these companies because they are chasing a fad?
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  #97  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:30 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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Does anyone think that billions are being invested by these companies because they are chasing a fad?
I think everyone knows that electric vehicles are the future, but to claim that they are already a better option is foolish, and makes one look ridiculous.

And just because they are going to be mainstream at some point, it doesn't mean that its for the better. Electricity rates will skyrocket because of the general shift.
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  #98  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:43 AM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
A little dramatic comparing plugging in to stealing gas from a vehicle in the middle of the night. Hotels are providing plug ins in the same way as they provide free breakfasts, newspapers or internet services. If you don't have a EV plug in that Tesla owner will stay at a different hotel that does provides one.
Not the least bit dramatic.
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  #99  
Old 11-20-2017, 07:46 AM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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I work at a school board,we turn the circuit breakers off to all the charging stations (charging stations are a Leeds requirement ). The outside car plugs only get turned on at minus 18 for a 30 minute period every 90 minutes during school hours.
No charging stations at our school, but the heater plugs are on a timer the same as that. Good luck charging your car on those. I stayed in a hotel one time where there was no power at the block heater plug and when I inquired at the desk they said they were on a timed cycle and would be on and off all night enough to keep the vehicle warm - so the hotel industry is certainly concerned about the cost of the "free" service they are providing.
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  #100  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:26 AM
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Road construction and maintenance comes largely out of fuel taxes, when people are not paying into that but are using the roads it needs to be amended, after all, user-pay is the most fair system possible. How do people propose the EV users contribute their share? Have a tax built into their purchase price that represents 250,000-350,000 km of use and what that would have equated to in gas or diesel taxes?

And no, for those who noted drama please re-read my post and the fellow I quoted. He mentioned his pal plugged into a standard outlet at Silver Star, though the rapid charge earlier in the trip would have been fine, he specified the other one was not a rapid charger but a block heater plug. If you're fine with that then surely you're also fine with your neighbor plugging their EV into your house. Fair is fair, right?

If a business installs a rapid charger then of course they're OK with EV's charging there, but for those who simply had pre-existing electrical outlets it's a bit of a stretch to assume they endorse people drawing 15 amps of current for a full day. Their power is metered going in you know, that becomes a cost. Who knows if the person charging up even patronizes the particular business that's had block their block heater plugs installed 15 years ago when EV's weren't a thing. It's unadulterated theft, why defend it?? If they go in and get permission or reimburse something for the power cost that's fine, but I doubt many do.

I can see this trend costing businesses money just to prevent the theft as now they'll have to install some form of timers, switches or meters on any exterior outlets. Still, you know some knob will have an extra long extension cord with him to find the outlets so rudely not put near parking spots.

Here is a scenario for some to contemplate: a government building with many government employees and subcontractors; the place has no profit motive and does not need to attract consumers due to its nature. Every employee there buys an EV so they can recharge for free at work and they rarely if ever plug it in at home, now how do you feel about the taxpayer footing those employees fuel bills? Let's step that up and note the building is parliament or a city hall where you're already footing the bill for their Gucci retirement package, so it's nothing for you to also to pay for their travel energy expenses, right? And for all of the people endorsing EV's as the savior of the environment, don't you think that people will drive and waste more energy if they're getting it for free? That's absolutely counter to conservation. Explain to me how that will save the environment when more power plants need to be built and fuel need to be burned in them to cover the consumption and travel increase ? I've got all day and then some to hear that explanation.

How many Tesla's drivers are against Site C? No new hydro means the energy powering them won't all be that clean.
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  #101  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:45 AM
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Wow ! Well wait if you old men want to try and catch up. Technology is rapidly changing to address all the negatives you talk about. Big oil is buying into the green tech because they know its inevitable. Perhaps you should start to get on board and save YOUR energy fighting it.
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  #102  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:55 AM
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The power grid will not handle charging Ev's. It will need to be totally rebuilt with say 138Kv lines, substations etc being replaced with 240 kv system. Who is going to pay for the enormous rebuild. Similar situation to Trump not rebuilding Puerto Rico grid!!
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  #103  
Old 11-20-2017, 09:22 AM
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The idea that electricity is going to be "free" going forward is ridiculous. That model is no more sustainable than having GM give free gas for life. Sounds great and take it if you can get it. But how is Tesla doing financially again...sustainable?

Electricity costs money to produce in any form and will never be free. And the opposite is likely to be true when more usage is shifted to electric. A boom in demand rarely leads to lower prices. I keep hearing about how the costs keep coming down but there is a limit. Sure you have efficiencies as things scale up but then things plateau and generally start to go the other was as supplies are constrained. If we were to believe the "continually get cheaper" mantra then why aren't ICE cars virtually free given that car companies have been mass producing and optimizing for years?

As far as wind and solar go. Their cost has been greatly underestimated when it comes to baseload generation. Sure on a small scale it works okay when you can push out reliable baseload generators during peak production and then slink into the night when the sun goes down while the fossil fuel plants do the heavy lifting. But what is the price when you factor in the buildout of generating capacity to supply a steady amount of power. 1GW of Natural gas generating name plate capacity does not equal 1GW of solar nameplate cause solar don't shine all the time. In order for solar to supply the same steady 1GW of power at 1/3 intermittency factor you will need 3X the solar power generating infrastructure in order to supply current needs plus store the energy for the other 2/3 of the time. To store a massive amount of power (not to mention you also have to overcome storage inefficiencies when put in and taking out to get that 1GW to the customer) is NOT cheap. If you run the numbers on the cost of batteries or any other large scale storage schemes that'd allow for smooth contribution from wind and solar the cost for those changes radically. I expect its +75% the cost to obtain a steady baseload.

Also as solar is scaled up there are some knock on effects starting to be seen as a result of solars wave like intermittency with high peaks. Solar is being given preferential treatment at peak generating time so that means gas generators are being forced to cut back for part of the day. The intermittency of gas generators having to scale back from running 24/7 is cutting sales and hurting the bottomline and making them uneconomic and ultimately undesirable to build even though they are still very much needed MOST of the day. hmmmmm Most countries who are claiming to be 100% renewable are doing it by generating more power than is required at peak and dumping that energy sometimes for free but then importing power at non-peak times from non-renewable sources. This is not doable if every country is intermittent wind and solar. At some point massive storage becomes the only option and it costs lots.

Here is a good site that has some excellent articles on this type of discussion.

http://euanmearns.com/
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  #104  
Old 11-20-2017, 09:27 AM
HyperMOA HyperMOA is offline
 
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
Going through Montana is not the worst thing in the world. The point is, already there is an infrastructure in place that one doesn't have to be concerned. Tesla is going to increasing that infrastructure.

One sure sees a lot of them in Arizona and California. Imagine all that A/C that needs to be run, and does. Are they answer for every situation? Not yet, but don't be surprised to see many electric vehicles on the road within 10 years. Want free power? Put in a solar panel at home.
Yep, infrastructure is being built but its still paltry. You have to choose routes carefully and rent $200 a night hotel rooms; where I can switch off drivers and travel 24 hours straight, and not give a second thought about where I need to fuel.

Your second paragraph I 100% agree with wholeheartedly. It has been my very point in most of my posts on this thread. Which is why I find it so strange that people tell me its already better than a conventional vehicle, yet nobody owns one on this thread?????
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  #105  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:08 AM
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Good points Elkster, but many will bury their heads in the sand when confronted with physics that counters their idealism. Sure these things will come about, but the cost to upgrading the electrical grid will be immense. We have people who tout their environmental superiority who also don't want to build parts of the necessary infrastructure to support such paradigm shifts. People are against the site C dam that could help power their idealism-mobiles.

With the intermittent nature of solar and wind power of course there needs to be built-in redundancy in the form of natural gas power generation, I could predict that when those power plant outputs are scaled back during times when the alternate sources are at peak output that government officials will calculate their produced output when noting percentages produced by the other sources so as to make the alternative source percentages look better.

My big question is why aren't these cars covered with solar panels in the first place?
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  #106  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:20 AM
Spooner Spooner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
It strikes me as rather immoral to be powering up wherever these drivers find an outlet on someone else's building. At Tesla charge points sure it's perfectly fine, but that's not the case everywhere; someone else winds up paying for their energy consumption. Those things must be a freeloaders dream car..... Not a lot different morally comparing that to to siphoning from someone else's tanks in the dead of night. Who even needs to plug in their vehicle anymore? Those can be set on timers to kick in 20-30 minutes before starting the vehicle so as not to waste power unnecessarily overnight. I suspect the Tesla crowd rationalizes "Well anybody else could be plugged in there all night and blah, blah, blah so I'm not stealing". But it is, and they are. If nobody else is plugged in because the weather is anywhere from -12 to plus 35 they are stealing if they are plugged in during those temperatures because nobody with a gas or diesel vehicle is plugged in then. Block heaters are there for extreme temp use, not for refueling. It not the intent to provide free energy where there is not even any road maintenance taxes buried in the energy cost. Now there's another freeloading aspect! Where's my burning pitchfork??

Pretty soon people will have to lock up or entirely remove their outdoor outlets to curtail electricity thieves. If they throw on credit card/debit actuated meters then that would be a fair solution for both parties. The brazen power theft by people who could obviously afford to pay for said power just rubs me the wrong way. Now just like with dedicated bicycle lanes and dedicated car share service parking there will need to be more 'special people' parking spots for those charging their EV's.

I'm gonna harangue JT's son or daughter for reparations when the Liberals appoint one of them PM in 32 years.
Me thinks your nose must be a little red if you actually believe this ridiculous nonsense.
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  #107  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:27 AM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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When Tesla goes under I think the first thing we'll see is pay as you charge at charging stations. Someone brought up the issue of block heater outlets. That electrical demand is a far cry from the demands of charging a car year round. When demand/cost is high enough everyone is going to pay. Whether its at each individual outlet is anyone's guess but power is not going to be free. One option would be to pay for the charging infrastructure through a tax but then the charging becomes "free" like our medical system...so not really.
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  #108  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:30 AM
Spooner Spooner is offline
 
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It's amazing that we've ever had technical progress given all the ways you've identified it's impossible.

How did we ever get the Internet? Cell Phones?

Imagine how many people are charging their phones in small businesses and stealing from them. Might as well wear a mask and use a sawed-off.

Centralized power generation allows us to take advantage of "economies of scale". It's far superior than having small internal combustion engines in every vehicle. It allows us to produce that power more cleanly.

Solar and wind will never replace fossil fuels. There are however great changes we can make with respect to efficiency, cost, and impact.

You can either profit or be left behind.
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  #109  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:45 AM
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I have not seen anyone note things are impossible, but plenty are pointing out where infrastructure improvement is needed and of course this will happen. What needs to happen is users paying for their personal consumption, without that there will certainly be no conservation. Use will only increase if anything.
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  #110  
Old 11-20-2017, 12:50 PM
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This is a pretty good thread.
I think its a classic cat/dog mentality though.
Some people see EV being the near future, some dont.

I bought my kid a hoverboard and i was quite impressed. It weighs 20 pounds and can transport 170 pounds for a range of 8 km on one charge. Charge takes 1 hours on 120v at 2.5a.
So .24kwh to get someone to work. Less than your fridge running.

Internal combustion engine, sure has an unlimited range, but you look at rush hour and 95% of the time, you have a ICE moving 3 tons of weight to get one person 10km.

Think of the power savings in that. I think overall, we are just hardwired for efficiency.
The only thing that stalls efficiency, to economics. Soon, it will be more cost efficient to be energy efficient.

Tesla will just be a blip in time, but it did put another player on the market that could care less about ICE and that will make the big car companies stand up and take notice to EV.
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  #111  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:06 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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If you take a look at a airbnb adds you will find many that point out that they have EV plug ins ( many are just 110 V like the one my friend uses in his Silver Star rental). I do the same on my airbnb property but as it's in QCI it mainly gets used for freezers in the back of trucks. Either way it's the cost of doing business. Losing out on a rental because you don't have some place for someone to plug in seems like a very poor business decision.
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  #112  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Map Maker View Post
This is a pretty good thread.
I think its a classic cat/dog mentality though.
Some people see EV being the near future, some dont.

I bought my kid a hoverboard and i was quite impressed. It weighs 20 pounds and can transport 170 pounds for a range of 8 km on one charge. Charge takes 1 hours on 120v at 2.5a.
So .24kwh to get someone to work. Less than your fridge running.

Internal combustion engine, sure has an unlimited range, but you look at rush hour and 95% of the time, you have a ICE moving 3 tons of weight to get one person 10km.

Think of the power savings in that. I think overall, we are just hardwired for efficiency.
The only thing that stalls efficiency, to economics. Soon, it will be more cost efficient to be energy efficient.

Tesla will just be a blip in time, but it did put another player on the market that could care less about ICE and that will make the big car companies stand up and take notice to EV.
You got it. Tesla may or may not make it but he did put EV's on the map. He forced every car company to build the products and there will be a new group of drivers in the very near future that will have never driven an ICE powered car and will look back and laugh at the arguments being made at this time.
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  #113  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:20 PM
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Doesn't it take something like 54 hours to fully charge a tesla off a standard 110v (amps?) circuit? So 2 and a 1/4 days of being plugged in to a hotel/ whatever/ wherever to drive how far again? Geez you had better hope for a supercharge station where ever you are going.
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  #114  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:38 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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I give props to Tesla on the electrical infrastructure front. IMO that push will be their biggest legacy in the end. A supercar is all fine but relatedly meaningless.

I agree we should be using this time to be moving forward on an expanded electrical system that can support things when oil and gas run short (which is going to happen sooner than most think at 100mmbbl/d). But I do think decisions should be based on sound reasoning and facts of the day not wishful thinking and dependant on "maybe" future battery advances like with wind and solar.

As a base load source nuclear is the only viable option with todays technology. And while its relatively expensive by todays standard, oil and gas are depleting and as such they are not going to be cheap forever. There will come a day that I think nuclear is going to look pretty darn cheap and certainly more stable and able to supply long term energy in the way we need it. Is it smart to wait for a supply crunch before we get started building the alternative? They ain't going to be built in a day. Best to move towards nuclear and save some oil and gas for items that can't be adapted well to electric like airplanes and heavy duty machinery.

If I were in charge I'd be pushing for research on cleaner safer nuclear to replace the dirtiest hydrocarbons first (coal) maybe use some carbon tax money to fund an experimental thorium reactor. And also keep funding battery research in the hopes of better storage solutions. IF there is a massive game changing advance in batteries then maybe move toward large scale solar and wind as well. Could place some of the reactors where coal used to be so that there is a transfer of jobs rather than total job loss.
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  #115  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:56 PM
normstad normstad is offline
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Doesn't it take something like 54 hours to fully charge a tesla off a standard 110v (amps?) circuit? So 2 and a 1/4 days of being plugged in to a hotel/ whatever/ wherever to drive how far again? Geez you had better hope for a supercharge station where ever you are going.
Where did you get this piece of misinformation? You're not even close but I'll let you do your own bit of research.

Here, I'll give you an assist in doing so.

http://bfy.tw/F8tH
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  #116  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:02 PM
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Me thinks your nose must be a little red if you actually believe this ridiculous nonsense.

Please highlight and detail your perspectives on what I noted that seems like nonsense to you. Perhaps you'll have a point and you'll enlighten me, or perhaps you're simply being contradictory without being able to back up the statement whatsoever. The floor is yours.

Red nosed characters are renowned for being helpful and dependable, even after being taunted & shunned
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  #117  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:15 PM
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Doesn't it take something like 54 hours to fully charge a tesla off a standard 110v (amps?) circuit? So 2 and a 1/4 days of being plugged in to a hotel/ whatever/ wherever to drive how far again? Geez you had better hope for a supercharge station where ever you are going.
Honestly, there really is not much searching involved. Those cars are so connected they let you know where all the charging stations are. They are popping up everywhere. I was in Fort Macleod and was surprised to see one even there! I think Tesla is being very smart in where they are establishing stations and making sure that you are covered in all directions.

The other thing that people are often bringing up that really is not as big a thing as it may seem initially is the cost of replacing the battery when it finally dies. Yes a battery is expensive, but people forget, or are not aware, that these cars have virtually no maintenance compared to a gas vehicle. Over 100,000kms, you will likely upwards of 10K on similarly priced European cars. On the Tesla there is no engine or transmission work to do, so in the end the battery cost is offset when compared to a normal car.

One of my Tesla clients with the crazy S model that has that insanity mode (P90D) and he uses his car a normal amount. He has the good charger at home and says his highest bill increase he calculated costing him around $29.00 for a month. A similarly priced Euro sport sedan would have probably been at least $300 for the same thing.

Again, I am not saying the overall cost is less to own, but more that it isn't more to operate when all things are considered.
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  #118  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:25 PM
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I personally think that we will never see 100% renewable energy and 0% fossil fuel. Once the dust settles each will find it's place in our world where they make senses.

The way technology is advancing who knows what will be the flavor of the month.

The issue I have is the politicians actions are not well thought out and they will fail. They are more interested in the votes renewable energy will get them than having a realistic long term plan to success.

Now some people will blindly follow what they are told and can see an EV in every drive way and no or little use of fossil fuel in the very near future.

Some people do see the advantage of new technology and advance of alternate energy, EV, and reduction of Fossil fuel. However they question the time line and amount this technology will have in the end.
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  #119  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:26 PM
Crankbait Crankbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
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if tesla isn't careful, news like this story can help the competition immensely;
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/1...down-the-road/
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  #120  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:33 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROA View Post
Doesn't it take something like 54 hours to fully charge a tesla off a standard 110v (amps?) circuit? So 2 and a 1/4 days of being plugged in to a hotel/ whatever/ wherever to drive how far again? Geez you had better hope for a supercharge station where ever you are going.
You're right it's pretty slow on a 110 V. It is all my friend uses however when at home. When he parks he plugs it in (just like a cell phone) so it's never fully uncharged. When he's out he will park at EV parking spots and plug in to there level 2 chargers (240 V) and he uses superchargers when traveling on the highway. His GPS on the dash (virtually a full laptop screen) constantly shows where there are charging stations (not just superchargers). They are so inconspicuous that you would never know there were that many around unless you were looking at the screen.
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