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  #121  
Old 11-20-2017, 04:22 PM
Spooner Spooner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Please highlight and detail your perspectives on what I noted that seems like nonsense to you. Perhaps you'll have a point and you'll enlighten me, or perhaps you're simply being contradictory without being able to back up the statement whatsoever. The floor is yours.

Red nosed characters are renowned for being helpful and dependable, even after being taunted & shunned
Your rant on the morality of charging EV's was nonsense.

The scenario you created (a blatant strawman) isnt a real thing.

Using that strawman to try and discredit EV's is a disingenuous way to debate, and clearly a logical fallacy.
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  #122  
Old 11-20-2017, 04:53 PM
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Again with you and your misapplication of strawman terminology. So electricity is free in your universe? People don't consume more when things are 'free' (or in some cases, stolen).

I'd debate you, but you've yet to offer a single point so I guess you've conceded.
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  #123  
Old 11-20-2017, 04:57 PM
Spooner Spooner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Again with you and your misapplication of strawman terminology. So electricity is free in your universe? People don't consume more when things are 'free' (or in some cases, stolen).

I'd debate you, but you've yet to offer a single point so I guess you've conceded.
Your strawman was the immoral epidemic of electricity theft for EV's.

It's not a real thing.
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  #124  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:01 PM
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Scott H already noted the practice of random plugging in, so there goes your point.
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  #125  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:27 PM
HVA7mm HVA7mm is offline
 
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I have a friend who purchased a 2015 Model S this year, and another who is looking at a new Model X SUV for his wife. If I were in the market for a luxury vehicle (read-had enough cash) that sees mostly urban driving I would seriously consider a Tesla, especially with the current supply of/demand for free electricity working in my favor. The "freebie" re-charging is bound to change over time (think of current extra charges on any utility bill).

But currently I own and rely on a 19yr pickup truck on a fairly regular basis, but only put on about 10K km per year. Although it is far from efficient, I calculated that at current fuel costs I could afford to re-fuel it for 30+ years for the price of a used Model S. I know that is not realistic as I won't be driving it for that long, but as long as maintenance costs are low, and the truck remains reliable I can't see replacing it (likely keep 5-7 years as it only has 178K on it). When that time comes and there is a viable EV that can perform the same tasks, I may consider it. But in the mean time I'll stick to what makes the most economic sense for me.
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  #126  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:23 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Scott H already noted the practice of random plugging in, so there goes your point.
Actually I mentioned that he plugged in at Silver Star. He uses the 110 V plug in supplied at the airbnb condo he rents up there with the knowledge of the owner. He doesn't use his car while there and leaves with a full battery. The owner has re-rented to him many times so the costs can't be that bad.
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  #127  
Old 11-20-2017, 09:31 PM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Actually I mentioned that he plugged in at Silver Star. He uses the 110 V plug in supplied at the airbnb condo he rents up there with the knowledge of the owner. He doesn't use his car while there and leaves with a full battery. The owner has re-rented to him many times so the costs can't be that bad.
Well, that is a quite different story than the original post
Quote:
then drives to Silver Star resort.He then plugs into the outside outlet everyone uses for their block heaters
No mention of knowledge and permission in there, or in the follow up post you made on it.
The action as you originally described it is immoral - no other way to spin it.
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  #128  
Old 11-20-2017, 10:22 PM
Spooner Spooner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by FCLightning View Post
Well, that is a quite different story than the original post

No mention of knowledge and permission in there, or in the follow up post you made on it.
The action as you originally described it is immoral - no other way to spin it.
This is insane.

Just my opinion.
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  #129  
Old 11-21-2017, 05:14 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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This is insane.

Just my opinion.
I find it pretty funny
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  #130  
Old 11-21-2017, 05:22 AM
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I find it pretty funny
I find it funny that the left wingers definition of "free" is what ever they can get that somebody else is paying for
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  #131  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Spooner View Post
This is insane.

Just my opinion.
Agree with you there.

Paying to stay in a hotel and then plugging into the vehicle plug-in is stealing (seriously guys, paying and then plugging your vehicle into the vehicle plug-in is stealing?!?)? Wait till they find out that likely every single person staying in the hotel, with the exception of themselves of course, charges their cell phone overnight!! Dare I say, ludicrous....
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  #132  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:49 AM
ROA ROA is offline
 
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
Where did you get this piece of misinformation? You're not even close but I'll let you do your own bit of research.

Here, I'll give you an assist in doing so.

http://bfy.tw/F8tH
Ok, I googled it and the first thing that poped up said 52 hours. So I was out by 2 hours soooorrrryyy!
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  #133  
Old 11-21-2017, 07:57 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
Agree with you there.

Paying to stay in a hotel and then plugging into the vehicle plug-in is stealing (seriously guys, paying and then plugging your vehicle into the vehicle plug-in is stealing?!?)? Wait till they find out that likely every single person staying in the hotel, with the exception of themselves of course, charges their cell phone overnight!! Dare I say, ludicrous....
It's not the fact that people are stealing by charging their car, but when enough people start doing so, it won't be so "free" .
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  #134  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:27 AM
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It's not the fact that people are stealing by charging their car, but when enough people start doing so, it won't be so "free" .
Agree with that. Like the old promotion, first 100 are free.
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  #135  
Old 11-21-2017, 09:32 AM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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I suspect people will still claim its free as there is a good chance charging cost will just be rolled into the cost of the hotel room rather than paying at the point of charge each time. To do all that individual metering would be a PITA I would think. It may be the same with workplaces where employers treat charging as a work benefit rather than try to micro meter everyone. Again their would be a cost that'd take away from salary money but the employee wouldn't see the line item. So the myth of "free" may go on.
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  #136  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by The Elkster View Post
I suspect people will still claim its free as there is a good chance charging cost will just be rolled into the cost of the hotel room rather than paying at the point of charge each time. To do all that individual metering would be a PITA I would think. It may be the same with workplaces where employers treat charging as a work benefit rather than try to micro meter everyone. Again their would be a cost that'd take away from salary money but the employee wouldn't see the line item. So the myth of "free" may go on.
I find it hilarious that there is a group that are so scared of change that they will look at any possible reason to find fault or some way that they are getting screwed. They are probably the same guys that use vehicles or gas that are supposed to be for work that get used for work that somehow end up out hunting or driving kids to school or wives to the store.
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  #137  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:14 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
It's not the fact that people are stealing by charging their car, but when enough people start doing so, it won't be so "free" .
Of course when 10 or 20% of the vehicles are EV there will have to be a different system for payment. So what if you are paying for electricity if you don't have to pay for gasoline?

These are all over the Vancouver area already;
http://moneyinc.com/chargepoint-says...ar-800-faster/
https://www.chargepoint.com/en-ca/dr...SAAEgI9N_D_BwE

Last edited by Scott h; 11-21-2017 at 10:24 AM.
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  #138  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:48 AM
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Anyone actually own an electric car on this thread?

Last edited by ROA; 11-21-2017 at 10:56 AM.
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  #139  
Old 11-21-2017, 12:03 PM
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I find it hilarious that there is a group that are so scared of change that they will look at any possible reason to find fault or some way that they are getting screwed. They are probably the same guys that use vehicles or gas that are supposed to be for work that get used for work that somehow end up out hunting or driving kids to school or wives to the store.
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  #140  
Old 11-21-2017, 12:27 PM
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With Scotts additional info about permission then of course that then makes it fine, his original explanation left out pertinent details. As I already noted I'm fine with people charging their vehicles so long as they have consent from whomever pays the electricity bill. With what one witnesses about human nature its easy to see the potential for abuses.

Some people seem to have the idea that I'm against EV's, but they're misinterpreting my observations about the existing power grid and some aspects of human nature as being criticisms of EV's. I think EV's are fine, a good thing even though like anything else they have strengths and weaknesses. The big factor is maintaining user-pay scenario for the electricity they're using as well as figuring out a way for the EV users to contribute their fair share to road maintenance and construction.

I was thinking yesterday about some time in the future where young people might not know the frustration of starting a cheap 'high school car' with an internal combustion engine and a crappy battery in frigid weather. I guess I'll be jealous of them never experiencing that particular joy.....

One thing I find rather contradictory is that many people are blocking the Site C project are also proponents of EV's. Where do they think clean power comes from? I say bring on EV's and bring on Site C and other power generation capability.
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  #141  
Old 11-21-2017, 12:40 PM
Bighorn River Bighorn River is offline
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Anyone actually own an electric car on this thread?
Probably not, given that they are only about 1% market penetration in North America, but give it time. Up to 30% of new sales in Norway right now.

To be fair, I do think that Alberta will be one of the last places to adopt in North America, but that doesn't mean changes elsewhere won't impact us. We are a pretty insular place and what Europe and California does we will follow eventually. Remember it took us about a decade of lag time to catch up with all those crazy young people texting overseas.

I don't live in the city, but I did, and was in Ontario, BC or Quebec with their big rebates on a Bolt or Kia Soul, I'd buy one now. Give it a few years, and once they have 300km range, I'm in.
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  #142  
Old 11-21-2017, 01:04 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
With Scotts additional info about permission then of course that then makes it fine, his original explanation left out pertinent details. As I already noted I'm fine with people charging their vehicles so long as they have consent from whomever pays the electricity bill. With what one witnesses about human nature its easy to see the potential for abuses.

Some people seem to have the idea that I'm against EV's, but they're misinterpreting my observations about the existing power grid and some aspects of human nature as being criticisms of EV's. I think EV's are fine, a good thing even though like anything else they have strengths and weaknesses. The big factor is maintaining user-pay scenario for the electricity they're using as well as figuring out a way for the EV users to contribute their fair share to road maintenance and construction.

I was thinking yesterday about some time in the future where young people might not know the frustration of starting a cheap 'high school car' with an internal combustion engine and a crappy battery in frigid weather. I guess I'll be jealous of them never experiencing that particular joy.....

One thing I find rather contradictory is that many people are blocking the Site C project are also proponents of EV's. Where do they think clean power comes from? I say bring on EV's and bring on Site C and other power generation capability.
I have to agree with you on the site C group. As much as I dislike the idea of damming rivers you can't play both sides of the coin. If you agree that electric vehicles are going to get more popular then the power has to come from somewhere. Once you start charging hundreds of thousands of EV's the power required will be massive.
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  #143  
Old 11-21-2017, 01:07 PM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
I find it hilarious that there is a group that are so scared of change that they will look at any possible reason to find fault or some way that they are getting screwed. They are probably the same guys that use vehicles or gas that are supposed to be for work that get used for work that somehow end up out hunting or driving kids to school or wives to the store.
Not scared of anything in this space. If I had the money there would be a Tesla sitting in my yard right now - but I don't have that kind of money. I know of a few people who were let go from real good jobs because of just what you have put up for the example of work trucks and expense claims for such. Wrong is wrong no matter how you sugar coat it.
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  #144  
Old 11-21-2017, 01:39 PM
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Scott, I agree with your mention of drivers of company trucks or those who expense their fuel, that scenario also leads to waste in the form of excess idling and increased driving. People who are paying for their fuel have the general tendency to conserve it, of course many with higher incomes might not bother to conserve but at least then the cost is borne the individual responsible for it. I run my own small company and I am quite conscious of my fuel expenses, every litre of fuel that I don't burn is money saved. I've recently had a job where I included a fairly significant (for me) fuel expense in my quote and I'm trying to be frugal with that too. Check my tire pressures, try to minimize cargo weight, drive the speed limit or even slightly below (trailering).


Compare this to a person used to 'free charging' and who is going to be more conscious of their usage? That electricity still has emissions embedded in it regardless of its source and the more consumption there is those emissions naturally increase.

I'm still wondering why the roof, hood and trunks of EV's aren't covered in solar panels.
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  #145  
Old 11-21-2017, 01:47 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Scott, I agree with your mention of drivers of company trucks or those who expense their fuel, that scenario also leads to waste in the form of excess idling and increased driving. People who are paying for their fuel have the general tendency to conserve it, of course many with higher incomes might not bother to conserve but at least then the cost is borne the individual responsible for it. I run my own small company and I am quite conscious of my fuel expenses, every litre of fuel that I don't burn is money saved. I've recently had a job where I included a fairly significant (for me) fuel expense in my quote and I'm trying to be frugal with that too. Check my tire pressures, try to minimize cargo weight, drive the speed limit or even slightly below (trailering).


Compare this to a person used to 'free charging' and who is going to be more conscious of their usage? That electricity still has emissions embedded in it regardless of its source and the more consumption there is those emissions naturally increase.

I'm still wondering why the roof, hood and trunks of EV's aren't covered in solar panels.
I think I saw that they had solar roof in Japan but that it didn't qualify for North American safety (???).
That Tesla semi would definitely seem like a no brainer to have a solar roof.
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  #146  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:13 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
I find it hilarious that there is a group that are so scared of change that they will look at any possible reason to find fault or some way that they are getting screwed. They are probably the same guys that use vehicles or gas that are supposed to be for work that get used for work that somehow end up out hunting or driving kids to school or wives to the store.
Its hilarious that you think keeping to the facts is somehow indicative of fear. If we look at all the facts and consider ALL the costs and remove all subsidies and electrics are better then sobeit. If they are so great people are going to buy them and go about their days as they always do. If however electrics are shoved under peoples noses and federally mandated under the guise that they are better and more economical when the "better" is only on paper after certain costs are ignored. That is where I have a problem. When Elon is talking about fix electricity costs for semi's and Depending on platooning to reach some number I really start to wonder. No fear just some real skepticism. If you want to accept everything blindly go ahead though.
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  #147  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:17 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
I think I saw that they had solar roof in Japan but that it didn't qualify for North American safety (???).
That Tesla semi would definitely seem like a no brainer to have a solar roof.
Do you have any clue what output a solar roof that size would contribute to the needs of a semi when you say its a no brainer? I suspect about 1% on a good day. Money well spent? But hey its something LOL
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  #148  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:25 PM
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Trochu Trochu is offline
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Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
Where do they think clean power comes from?
Site C? Nope, floods the worlds most productive farmland;
Nuclear? Nope, the waste is incredibly hazardous and the risk is to great;
Wind Farms? Nope, kills to many birds and bats;
Natural Gas? I hope you're joking;
Solar? Doesn't meet the architectural standards of my neighborhood (isn't the best solution for Canada anyways...)
Somewhere far away that doesn't affect you? Okay, sounds good.

That's the conclusion I've arrived at anyway.
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  #149  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:38 PM
The Elkster The Elkster is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
Site C? Nope, floods the worlds most productive farmland;
Nuclear? Nope, the waste is incredibly hazardous and the risk is to great;
Wind Farms? Nope, kills to many birds and bats;
Natural Gas? I hope you're joking;
Solar? Doesn't meet the architectural standards of my neighborhood (isn't the best solution for Canada anyways...)
Somewhere far away that doesn't affect you? Okay, sounds good.

That's the conclusion I've arrived at anyway.
That sounds great when do we start Will your solution have thermonuclear resistant glass?
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  #150  
Old 11-21-2017, 02:47 PM
Buckhead Buckhead is offline
 
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The economics on EV's just don't work. They may at some point in the future but not currently.

For instance:
A Chevy Bolt or Tesla Model 3 is going to set you back around $45K.
A comparable car with a gas engine would be the Chevy Sonic at $20K.
This is assuming no government incentives.

Assuming that I do the comparison I have $20K to buy fuel and the other $5K for maintenance. The Chevy Sonic will average around 8L/100 km. Using an average price for regular fuel of $1.20/L I am going to have to drive 208,000 kms just to break even with the EV.

And this assumes that I am getting the electricity for free and doing zero maintenance on the EV - which is not realistic.

So the real break even point is probably closer to 350,000 kms.
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