Sheep on a Draw?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

So you think a longer wait would make a sheep hunter that has not harvested a ram pass on the 5, 6, and 7 year olds?

I just figure that 600 guys sitting out during a 5 year wait will decrease the amount of rams shot which in turn should alow a few rams the time to get a little more age on them.
our total sheep hunters in the field with tags will decrease by 120 per year roughly and unless 120 new hunters come in every year then it cant do anything but help a little. After the first 5 years guys will alternate back in and hopefully there are a few more rams running around out there.
Id rather wait the 5 years and be quarenteed a tag than have it go on draw and take my chances there.
SG

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ya thats my issue TJ im jealouse of the guys killing rams, superstars such as you and Rich. And I do know of 3 or 4 guys that have killed 3 - 5 rams all 2-3 years apart all under 165 and all under 7 years old. But I guess if you dont know of any than its not an issue.
Im not saying that our sheep hunting isnt good and yes every year some great rams are shot. Some guys would just like to see an improvment in mature rams being shot. If your against that its your right.
Im not saying the 5 year wait is for sure gunna help but 600 guys having to wait 5 years has got to do something!
Sure our sheep populations are decent but sure arent at or near the carrying capacity of the land.
SG

LOL, I'm hardly a superstar...I've killed far less than a ram every five years. I"ll likely kill one or two more rams in my life so this proposed new regulation would have zero effect on me. I just don't like the fact that those that work hard for sheep and those that have honed their skills through hard work and dedication are being punished. When did we start managing game by punishing good hunters. Should we do the same with mule deer? Trophy quality is unquestionably sliding there and I know some guys that kill bucks every year. If they weren't hunting but once every five years it sure would be easier for me to kill a big buck. I guess the other option is I could get off my butt and work as hard as them.


Please do not put words in my mouth Darcy, it's a really annoying habit you have when you are running out of things to say. I've never said that I'm against more mature rams but I know that this isn't the way to acheive it. Is this five year wait really about putting more mature rams on the mountain or is it about punishing the successful and making it easier for the unsuccessful. I only see the latter.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I just figure that 600 guys sitting out during a 5 year wait will decrease the amount of rams shot which in turn should alow a few rams the time to get a little more age on them.
our total sheep hunters in the field with tags will decrease by 120 per year roughly and unless 120 new hunters come in every year then it cant do anything but help a little. After the first 5 years guys will alternate back in and hopefully there are a few more rams running around out there.
Id rather wait the 5 years and be quarenteed a tag than have it go on draw and take my chances there.
SG

I think the thing that you are missing is that resident success runs about 5% in non-draw areas. Sure if success rates were high and you took hunters out of the field, harvest would go down but right now, you've got several thousand hunters looking for 140 rams. Do you really think that taking a small percentage of hunters out of the field is going to change the number of rams killed. Is that small group of elite sheep hunters so effective and the remainder so inept that sheep won't be killed. Come on...harvest numbers won't change a fraction. It will just be easier for the 95% that are unsuccessful to be successful.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL, I'm hardly a superstar...I've killed far less than a ram every five years. I"ll likely kill one or two more rams in my life so this proposed new regulation would have zero effect on me. I just don't like the fact that those that work hard for sheep and those that have honed their skills through hard work and dedication are being punished. When did we start managing game by punishing good hunters. Should we do the same with mule deer? Trophy quality is unquestionably sliding there and I know some guys that kill bucks every year. If they weren't hunting but once every five years it should would be easier for me to kill a big buck. I guess the other option is I could get off my butt and work as hard as them.


Please do not put words in my mouth Darcy, it's a really annoying habit you have when you are running out of things to say. I've never said that I'm against more mature rams but I know that this isn't the way to acheive it. Is this five year wait really about putting more mature rams on the mountain or is it about punishing the successful and making it easier for the unsuccessful. I only the latter.

You know this wont help how? Back what you say! Your dead against everything that has been brought up on here as to suggestions for improvment(hence me stating that you must be against any improvment). They have been nothing more than suggestions.
And as far as comparing sheep to the mule deer id say in alot of zones there is a 5 year or better wait to get a big mule deer. Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

No, they provide equal opportunity, regardless of how successful you are. Draws are a tool used to manage populations and in some cases trophy quality. With the priority system we have in Aberta, everyone has equal opportunity. Yes, there could be some tinkering on the super long odd draws but for the most part, draws are the most equal way to provide opportunity while still meeting the population goals of the game managers.

The reason I'm dead against everything right now is no one has shown there's a problem. Prove the problem and then let's find a solution. If the problem is anything other than improving odds for the unsuccessful, I don't see a five year wait being the answer regardless of what the problem is. There are too many sheep hunters trying to kill a small number of sheep. Take a few out of the pool and there are lots more to take their place. Simple math says it ain't going to help. Unless you feel that 95% of sheep hunters are too inept to kill a ram......there's no way it can make a difference. Each year it will just be a different 140 guys killing rams....how does that improve population or age structure?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think the thing that you are missing is that resident success runs about 5% in non-draw areas. Sure if success rates were high and you took hunters out of the field, harvest would go down but right now, you've got several thousand hunters looking for 140 rams. Do you really think that taking a small percentage of hunters out of the field is going to change the number of rams killed. Is that small group of elite sheep hunters so effective and the remainder so inept that sheep won't be killed. Come on...harvest numbers won't change a fraction. It will just be easier for the 95% that are unsuccessful to be successful.

We can argue about this forever and get no where. All im saying is that killing so many young rams every year isnt the answer.
What do you think B.C would be like if guys shot every young full curl stone ram? Why do outfitters in B.C, Yukon and NWT set strict age limits? So that them big rams have a chance to grow. They know that if you shoot all the young rams that reach full curl then them big old twister rams wont be around.

What do you think B.C would be like if guys shot every young full curl stone ram? Why do outfitters in B.C, Yukon and NWT set strict age limits? So that them big rams have a chance to grow. They know that if you shoot all the young rams that reach full curl then them big old twister rams wont be around.

Huh? You can kill any full curl ram in BC or the Yukon regardless of age. We are talking resident hunters in Alberta...not outfitters. Some BC and Yukon outfitters have the luxury of remote areas and can manage herds to some degree but residents can come in and shoot any full curl they want...plus I think we've already discusseed the difficulty of field aging bighorns versus thinhorns.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No, they provide equal opportunity, regardless of how successful you are. Draws are a tool used to manage populations and in some cases trophy quality. With the priority system we have in Aberta, everyone has equal opportunity. Yes, there could be some tinkering on the super long odd draws but for the most part, draws are the most equal way to provide opportunity while still meeting the population goals of the game managers.

The reason I'm dead against everything right now is no one has shown there's a problem. Prove the problem and then let's find a solution. If the problem is anything other than improving odds for the unsuccessful, I don't see a five year wait being the answer regardless of what the problem is. There are too many sheep hunters trying to kill a small number of sheep. Take a few out of the pool and there are lots more to take their place. Simple math says it ain't going to help. Unless you feel that 95% of sheep hunters are too inept to kill a ram......there's no way it can make a difference. Each year it will just be a different 140 guys killing rams....how does that improve population or age structure?

I do beleive that a small percentage of sheep hunters account for a high percentage of rams killed. And there are a good number of guys that are out there hunting that will probably never kill a ram but buy a tag everyyear. You see them driving around your K country every year driving around west of Nordegg and quading in the humming bird. Some of these guys will never be successful.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I do beleive that a small percentage of sheep hunters account for a high percentage of rams killed. And there are a good number of guys that are out there hunting that will probably never kill a ram but buy a tag everyyear. You see them driving around your K country every year driving around west of Nordegg and quading in the humming bird. Some of these guys will never be successful.

I totally agree but so what, you take out the small percentage of successful sheep hunters and the small percentage that will never be successful and it still leaves a whole lot in the middle capable of killing those same 140 rams. It's simple math.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Huh? You can kill any full curl ram in BC or the Yukon regardless of age. We are talking resident hunters in Alberta...not outfitters. Some BC and Yukon outfitters have the luxury of remote areas and can manage herds to some degree but residents can come in and shoot any full curl they want...plus I think we've already discusseed the difficulty of field aging bighorns versus thinhorns.

Im using the outfitters as an example of them trying to manage for trophy quality. To get better quality you need age. I used BC and them as an example as most areas have lower resident pressure so it works. The areas with high resident pressure has way lower quality of rams. Sure residents can shoot alot of rams in BC when they are 6 but in the zones that this is happening there are very few good rams around. Kinda like Alberta.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Im using the outfitters as an example of them trying to manage for trophy quality. To get better quality you need age. I used BC and them as an example as most areas have lower resident pressure so it works. The areas with high resident pressure has way lower quality of rams. Sure residents can shoot alot of rams in BC when they are 6 but in the zones that this is happening there are very few good rams around. Kinda like Alberta.

Again, no arguement but how is taking a small percentage of sheep hunters out of the field going to change that in Alberta? We've got a lot of sheep hunters competing for a small number of rams. Someone is going to kill them, regardless of age.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

Myself and everybody I know that hunts sheep had no one showing us anything. As for sheep hunting none of us have ever got a ram.Sheep hunters are like a secret society.They dont tell anybody anything.And no we are not the guys in the truck or on the quad. Lots of hard miles on the foot.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You know this wont help how? Back what you say! Your dead against everything that has been brought up on here as to suggestions for improvment(hence me stating that you must be against any improvment). They have been nothing more than suggestions.
And as far as comparing sheep to the mule deer id say in alot of zones there is a 5 year or better wait to get a big mule deer. Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

No not the rich non resident that payed a guide. He can come every year.

[Gulo gulo]

Sheepguide: I guess I didn't explain myself very well, my bad.
The proposed change that came from apos is to improve quality of hunt and less competition from residents. It has nothing to do with trophy potential. Please remember the SRD does not manage or want to manage for trophy quality. It is simply mathamatically impossible for it to change the number of sheep killed by residents. The number of hunters would have to go down by half to have a difference. Only 5-7 percent of residents get sheep that number would just increase a percent or 2 but the same sheep would die. Please try to understand this.

I/we all want to increase trophy potential but a five year wait will not do this. Here are some ideas:
1 Open up some more area for us to hunt (white goat, siffleur ect)
2 Reduce the amount non-resident allocations. Since they have the highest percentage of success it would mathematically put more sheep on the mountain by effecting the fewest amount of people.
3 Yukon full curl. Correct me if I am wrong(sure somebody will) but doesn't the Yukon have a different full curl rule than us, that is inbetween our 4/5 and full curl? A 4/5 and half curl.

These are just off the top of my head ideas, so don't smash me too much. I just think there must be something better than this redonkulous idea that apos is pushing.
cheers

[ram crazy]

I'm going to take a guess here and say that the people in SRD that are wanting to make these changes don't even hunt sheep. Just by taking sheep hunters that are successful out of the field for 5 yrs isn't going to change the size in an area. It is the genetics that determines that. And what are they going to do about the cougars, wolves and mother nature taking sheep as well. Why fix something that isn't broke.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The reason I'm dead against everything right now is no one has shown there's a problem. Prove the problem and then let's find a solution.

That is the simple point that has been missed in this entire thread. There can't be a solution until a problem is identified. Without it everything is either rumour, speculation, or personal agendas.

[ishootbambi]

darcy, i am with you on wanting more big rams in this province. i agree with tj who actually makes the strong argument that is the root cause of so many small sheep out there. too many hunters chasing too few available legal rams. the vast majority die as soon as they are legal to do so. that is a simple fact of numbers. 140 seems to be the average provincail harvest, and that is very unlikely to change by removing that many hunters every year. it is unlikely to change how many rams are killed, just who kills them. i dont believe it will increase trophy size at all, but now thats opinion. darcy, again you are right in saying that most of the big rams taken are very near sanctuaries and for whatever reason, weather or rut the most common, they get caught where they dont normally spend much time. thats obvious as well. ksteed's huge ram from this past fall has horns stained black from coal dust. despite the rumors otherwise, i believe he shot it where he says he did. great sheep, great story, and a lucky dude. that ram got caught where he normally did not hang out. congratulations kyle. i would like to see more guys have the chance to tell a story like that, and the only way i see that happening is to take some areas and put them on a draw. thats the only effective way to cap the number of sheep killed in a given area, and that is the way to allow more rams to grow up. clearly some guys want bigger sheep, and some guys are cool with how it is now. everyone has their arguments as to what they think is best and most guys have some reasoning behind it. everyone has their opinion and thats what the entire discussion is about. everyone that is but rich. i dont mean to single out anyone, but i really have to ask you....what the heck are you talking about? you are rambling about sheep in parks and somehow we are going to overpopulate them? i read your post 4 times, and i really dont understand what you are trying to say. could you please clarify what you're point is .

[ishootbambi]

oh, and by the way, since we are all on a first name basis here...I'm dale.

[Okotokian]

I like to check back on this thread every few days. Seems mostly to be a pizzing match between two guys, and it's gone ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON FOR 12 PAGES.

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The reason I'm dead against everything right now is no one has shown there's a problem. Prove the problem and then let's find a solution.

Apos fiqures there is a problem that is why they are lobbying SRD for change. Seems like the squeaky wheel is getting the grease.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

That is the simple point that has been missed in this entire thread. There can't be a solution until a problem is identified. Without it everything is either rumour, speculation, or personal agendas.

This is the big thing, no one said there is a problem just a few guys thinking it could be better. Like I said Alberta has some good sheep hunting. and not looking to lower kill pecents or number of guys hunting. As Ive said many times on AO I would just like to see a more mature bunch of rams being shot. If everyone is happy with the majority of rams being shot at 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 then thats fine. Some of us just arent happy with that. If wanting a older bunch of huntable rams is wrong well then I guess im wrong. Not one guy on here knows how this can be obtained but sure alot of guys willing to shoot down any suggestions.
Sheep hunting is gunna change in the near future and that is a guarentee.
Either with a draw, size restriction(maybe more full curl zones), or the longer waites. Id just rather(as im sure most other guys) wait AFTER shooting a ram rather than having to wait TO shoot a ram. At least give something a try b4 going to a straight draw so that there is no ryme nore reason as to who gets a tag(some guys will get drawn 3 times b4 some get drawn 1).
SG

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I like to check back on this thread every few days. Seems mostly to be a pizzing match between two guys, and it's gone ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON FOR 12 PAGES.

Hang out in different thread and you wouldnt have to see it!!

If your so interested in this thread to keep coming back then lets see what your ideas and thoughts are.
At least some of us are putting ideas out there whether they are liked or not, we try. Not like some that sit back just to come in and say why they dont like the thread!!
SG

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This is the big thing, no one said there is a problem just a few guys thinking it could be better. Like I said Alberta has some good sheep hunting. and not looking to lower kill pecents or number of guys hunting. As Ive said many times on AO I would just like to see a more mature bunch of rams being shot. If everyone is happy with the majority of rams being shot at 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 then thats fine. Some of us just arent happy with that. If wanting a older bunch of huntable rams is wrong well then I guess im wrong. Not one guy on here knows how this can be obtained but sure alot of guys willing to shoot down any suggestions.
Sheep hunting is gunna change in the near future and that is a guarentee.
Either with a draw, size restriction(maybe more full curl zones), or the longer waites. Id just rather(as im sure most other guys) wait AFTER shooting a ram rather than having to wait TO shoot a ram. At least give something a try b4 going to a straight draw so that there is no ryme nore reason as to who gets a tag(some guys will get drawn 3 times b4 some get drawn 1).
SG

Some people would like a chance at a chance at more mature (read bigger) rams. Lets look at the main area producing these mature rams - Cadomin. There are a number of reasons, a main one being quality of feed on a reclaimed mine site. So rather than looking at changes to the hunt, how about people discuss and look at changing environmental impacts for sheep in other parts of the province. ie controlled burns and maintaining & improving their ranges, improve the quality of their feed (obviously other animals would also benefit). Read the Willmore book and a consistant theme is the change in the plant growth and feed available to wildlife. IMO if in fact there is an actual problem it is related to habitat. So if that is the case then why not focus on the root cause.

[crazyfish]

If we take sheep and put them on a draw, just like MD a bunch of years ago, yes there would be less people in the mountains, the numbers and quality may go up. The outfitters would love that, less compition, so 50 % goes to 75% ? who knows, maybe not , but i've never heard about tags being reduced for them ! The other side is that look what happened with the MD,there are still lots of people not happy with the system right now ! If it goes to a draw , i believe that just about everyone across the province will throw a name in the hat, because we've all learned from 437 that if you don't , you may never see a tag ! That might be alot of people in line for alot more than 5 yrs !

The original discussion was also about short rams, maybe a better education process for hunters would solve that side of it ! There are also a bunch of small elk shot every year, but that isn't up on the radar either ! Some people are just a tad too trigger happy, and i'm afraid thats hard to fix !

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

As Ive said many times on AO I would just like to see a more mature bunch of rams being shot. If everyone is happy with the majority of rams being shot at 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 then thats fine. Some of us just arent happy with that.
SG

x2 I for one do not like seeing immature rams being taken.
Have we now identified the underlying problem?
That being said I don't want to see it going to draw as we have discussed many times...

At least give something a try b4 going to a straight draw so that there is no ryme nore reason as to who gets a tag(some guys will get drawn 3 times b4 some get drawn 1).

So let's assume for a minute we need more and bigger sheep...explain to me again how the lengthened wait period will fix that. I'm not willing to give it a try just for the sake of trying. Simple math says it won't work.

Priority draws are totally based on fairness, someone gets drawn once, they go behind those that have never been drawn. Again, simple math.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Some people would like a chance at a chance at more mature (read bigger) rams. Lets look at the main area producing these mature rams - Cadomin. There are a number of reasons, a main one being quality of feed on a reclaimed mine site. So rather than looking at changes to the hunt, how about people discuss and look at changing environmental impacts for sheep in other parts of the province. ie controlled burns and maintaining & improving their ranges, improve the quality of their feed (obviously other animals would also benefit). Read the Willmore book and a consistant theme is the change in the plant growth and feed available to wildlife. IMO if in fact there is an actual problem it is related to habitat. So if that is the case then why not focus on the root cause.

Ok ill go with you on the enviromental changes. I agree more can be done here also but you still need mature animals.

Look at the ages of most of the rams killed in Cadomin.
The average age of all the rams shot in November(or any of the big rams through out the year) will be way over 6.

Then guys get into the genetics, I.E bigger bases. Well if my memory is right the world record bighorn was averaged at 15 7/8 inches on the bases!
Alot of guys on here seem to think that a ram has to have bases way over 16" to become big.

Originally Posted by Swarovski

x2 I for one do not like seeing immature rams being taken.
Have we now identified the underlying problem?
That being said I don't want to see it going to draw as we have discussed many times...

But is it really a problem? While you and I would love the opportunity to harvest more mature rams, is that what the average Albertan wants? Considering that most first-time sheep hunters are happy to shoot any ram, possibly it's not a problem. We have loads of breeding rams that call the parks home so that's not really and issue and from what I can ascertain, populations are stable. What you and I perceive as a problem may not be a problem to the general hunting public. Quite honestly, from a personal perspective, short of opening new areas, I'd love to see sheep go on draw and managed for age/size but I have a hard time convincing myself that that's the best for all Alberta hunters. I have no doubt that a draw would quickly increase age structure but I can't for the life of me fathom how an extended wait period will do that. It will just be diffent guys shooting the same rams. There's too many of us out there looking for a small number of legal rams for it to ever make a difference.

If you truly want more bigger/older rams out there....you are lobbying for a draw. There's no way around it.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So let's assume for a minute we need more and bigger sheep...explain to me again how the lengthened wait period will fix that. I'm not willing to give it a try just for the sake of trying. Simple math says it won't work.

Priority draws are totally based on fairness, someone gets drawn once, they go behind those that have never been drawn. Again, simple math.

Ya fairness, and I have seen numerous times where guys with less priority
have been drawn b4 another with more. Im not gunna argue about the draw system. It is flawed just like everything.I know guys that are a priority 3 on cow elk in 324 and my wife gets a tag every year. But I guess it all fair.

Id rather have a system where I can take my boys out when they are old enough to hunt and see them get a bighorn. Not have to wait a bunch of years because a bunch of greedy hunters needed 4 or 5 rams on the wall and they have to go through 10yrs of draws so that guys like you TJ can get drawn for their 6th ram. Why should they be punished. Sure they havent put in their dues and worked as hard as most guys yet but how can they if they dont get a tag till they are 24! They are only 7 and 10 now but have as much PASSION for the mountains as you or I and spend just as many days out there !!
And did anyone say TJ that we "NEED" more big sheep. Just a few that would like to see it.
SG

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ok ill go with you on the enviromental changes. I agree more can be done here also but you still need mature animals.

Look at the ages of most of the rams killed in Cadomin.
The average age of all the rams shot in November(or any of the big rams through out the year) will be way over 6.

Then guys get into the genetics, I.E bigger bases. Well if my memory is right the world record bighorn was averaged at 15 7/8 inches on the bases!
Alot of guys on here seem to think that a ram has to have bases way over 16" to become big.

I'm not a biologist so I won't be able to put up facts on this other than speculation. From what I understand bighorns throughout their range here in Alberta have different physical traits - ie some areas are known to have larger bases, some have tight curls, some have loose loopy curls, body sizes vary over the range etc. If I assume that is correct then I'd assume that certain areas have a higher likelyhood of producing these big mature rams. So right off the get go this will be a factor.
As for the age of the Cadomin rams they have the mine as a sanctuary (as do some southern rams with parks) but the one major difference is quality of feed. Essentially the Cadomin rams have the added benefit of premier feed which will aid in horn growth. I'd bet if you reclaimed and burned feed areas outside of parks in areas of Alberta other than Cadomin over time you'd see an increase in horn growth due to the improved feed.
Now when are most of these big sheep in the Cadomin area shot? November would be the majority of them I believe. Now if we look at the rest of the province I think the only other areas you can hunt sheep in November is 408 and 410 - both archery zones on a draw basis. No doubt during Sept and Oct people are hunting prime sheeps areas - just not with the added benefit of being able to hunt in November when those big rams are on the move.

So perhaps 2 issues come to light - habitat/feed, and the inability to hunt during November.