Sheep on a Draw?

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The difference being is with an election we all get the same government whether we vote or not.
Currently 16% of hunters buy archery tags, should they dictate to the other 84% what the seasons and limits are going to be? No of course not, I could see having to explain this slowly to someone like sheepguide but you I suspect have let your passion over ride your judgment. That is something I can understand.

OK, I agree with you there however that 16% who buy archery tags and hunt a specific bow zone/s would have a much better idea of the number of animals and mangement the zone/s contains than myself who never gets out with a bow anymore... Yes I may pick that bow up in the future but I am willing to let them make decisions for managing bow opportunities in that zone/s at this time as they are more in touch with that zone/s. Your comparison is valid but your comparing apples to oranges.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

You are right. We The sheep hunters are the ones that realy make the difference anyway not the deer hunter.Do you really think he cares what we are doing or even talking about?.No they dont.So why change anything in the general season.Why not add a draw for a november hunt in all zones and give out 1 archery tag and 1 rifle tag(full curl only).no priority just luck of the draw.after drawing that tag you cant put in for life or lets say 10 years in on that draw. So all the people that want a big ram will have a better chance.But you are not eligable for this tag unless you have bought a tag for a 5 concecutive years or have killed a ram in the past.Also If you are on your year off after killing a ram the year before on a general you are not aloud to take or help in any way of another hunter.

What do you guys think of this????

No, there are a limited amount of tags available and one groups benefit is at another's loss. How many times do we have to divide ourselves before we realize how detrimental it is to the sport. You also might be surprised at what the results of polling 93% unsuccessful hunters might be. Do you think they will vote to make it harder to get a sheep? I doubt it. As Long Draw said be careful what you wish for.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

No, there are a limited amount of tags available and one groups benefit is at another's loss. How many times do we have to divide ourselves before we realize how detrimental it is to the sport. You also might be surprised at what the results of polling 93% unsuccessful hunters might be. Do you think they will vote to make it harder to get a sheep? I doubt it. As Long Draw said be careful what you wish for.

Whao said I was wishing? I gave an Idea and ask everybody on here. All that you guys have done lately is put everybodies comments down.I dont agree in the ageing the animals to be the way so I came up with this one.I simply asked your opinion.Never wished for anything.Also who said it makes it harder? Read it again.

[walking buffalo]

I'll have to quite work to be able to keep up with this thread!

B.C. has tried adjusting curl size/age to increase the age of harvested sheep. For those interested, take a break, and read this long thread.

It may give insight to what is being discussed here.


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...spences+bridge

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

No, there are a limited amount of tags available and one groups benefit is at another's loss. How many times do we have to divide ourselves before we realize how detrimental it is to the sport. You also might be surprised at what the results of polling 93% unsuccessful hunters might be. Do you think they will vote to make it harder to get a sheep? I doubt it. As Long Draw said be careful what you wish for.

So then who is really getting affected by trying a longer wait Rich. It only changes after you shoot a ram. And since you said "Most" guys only want their one and only ram then it doesnt affect them either. So really it only affects mainly the dedicated yearly sheep hunters. It doesnt take anything away until your successful. So why would they feel its making it harder to get a ram. To me the possibility of maybe a few less hunters out there would make the unsuccessfull hunters vote in agreement with the 5 year proposal, or a few others on here.

[JustinC]

Sheepguide what do you think of my Idea?

[Setterman]

I emailed Rob Corrigan with regards to my concerns about the 5 year wait time this is his response.

Any thoughts???


Setterman,

Thank you for your question regarding sheep management in Alberta, specifically as it relates to a 5-year wait after harvesting a trophy sheep. Alberta Fish and Wildlife participates in extensive consultation regarding game management and hunting regulations that support game management decisions. For the past number of years there has been concern raised at local post-hunting season meetings and from a variety of provincial conservation organizations regarding the lack of mature rams. As well, recent aerial surveys conducted post-hunting season in some bighorn sheep populations has demonstrated a decrease in the number and percentage of mature rams within a population. The trophy sheep harvest has also decreased from the 1990’s while the number of sheep hunters has remained relatively constant.

Numerous proposals have also been proposed and supported by a variety of conservation organization and stakeholder groups to amend hunting season regulation aimed to increase the number of mature rams. The following options have been discussed as a means to increase the number of mature rams;

1. Longer wait periods after killing a ram,
2. Putting trophy sheep on draw provincially,
3. Limit the number of rams a hunter is entitled to in a lifetime, and
4. Amend the 4/5 size regulation to full curl.

Initiating a longer wait time between harvesting a ram would be the option which would have the least impact on recreational opportunity while still providing a reasonable opportunity to harvest a ram. At this point Fish and Wildlife is taking forward for further consultation increasing the wait time between harvesting rams to five years. If this option proceeds it will be evaluated to determine if it achieves the desired effect before looking at more restrictive options.

Thanks

Rob

Rob Corrigan, MSc.
Provincial Big Game Specialist
Wildlife Management Branch
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
2nd Floor, Great West Life Bldg.,
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, Alberta T5K 2M4
Phone: (780) 644-8011 Fax: (780) 422-9557

________________________________________

[bonedogg]

Make it a once in a lifetime acheivement. You can hunt them every year,general or draw, but only kill one in your lifetime.
-Maintain the same draws, possibly add a few or split some up( Example-410-1st three weeks of Nov. 25 guys, and extend the season to include the last week of november and the first two weeks of Dec. the other 25 of 50 tags given out at this time.) Split up 408 as well.
-Add november/december draws (Rifle and archery) to all mountain zones. Sheep tag still general, but only after you kill and register a ram will you be excluded from killing another big horn in Alberta.
-Same applies to any non resident hunting in Alberta under a guide. One ram only. This would eliminate the big money guys hunting here yearly from out of country.

I beleive this will make most hunters pass on younger/squeeker rams in search of their trophy, others will be satisfied with their young rams and the accomplishment that it is in itself. Hunters will still help others to obtain their goals once they have satisfied their own as that is what friends or family do!

Just my two cents.

[Swarovski]

Great thread walking buffalo! Not quite finished reading it yet
Setterman good job on the email!
Rumor is now confirmed... looks like some of us were right in trying to come up with a better solution as it seems they are now moving forward on the issue!

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by JustinC

You are right. We The sheep hunters are the ones that realy make the difference anyway not the deer hunter.Do you really think he cares what we are doing or even talking about?.No they dont.So why change anything in the general season.Why not add a draw for a november hunt in all zones and give out 1 archery tag and 1 rifle tag(full curl only).no priority just luck of the draw.after drawing that tag you cant put in for life or lets say 10 years in on that draw. So all the people that want a big ram will have a better chance.But you are not eligable for this tag unless you have bought a tag for a 5 concecutive years or have killed a ram in the past.Also If you are on your year off after killing a ram the year before on a general you are not aloud to take or help in any way of another hunter.

What do you guys think of this????

I gotta say I dont like your idea at all of not being able to help another hunter when someone is on their year off. That would be very hard to ever enforce and also VERY limiting for hunters in the field. What about all the people who carry a sheep and elk tag at the same time? It would pretty much limit successful hunters to stay out of the mountains comletely with friends, or else hunt by themselves....

Also, if you wanted only successful sheep hunters or hunters who have had a sheep tag for 5 years to be eligible for the draw, I could see a lot of guys shooting very young legal rams just to be eligible to apply in the November draw...

Overall I cant say I like either of those suggestions myself....

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Bulletproof

Even though I dont really think anything needs to be done my suggestion would be to adopt a modified system of the mature bc ram areas.

Leave the 4/5 rule in effect. Any hunter that shoots a ram under full curl or 8+ years old has to wait 5 years for a tag. If you meet the full curl/8+ requirement then the regular year wait is applied.

I know it is difficult to age rams but seperating them into eiter older then or younger than 8 will be a lot easier then trying to class every one by a specific year.

You could also adjust the age up or down if 8 isnt the best number.

Brett

This is a pretty interesting idea man. I like it.

Again, its really hard to make a lot of decisions based on rumour, opinion, etc but if a change was coming this one seems well thought out.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

This is a pretty interesting idea man. I like it.

Again, its really hard to make a lot of decisions based on rumour, opinion, etc but if a change was coming this one seems well thought out.

I would buy into this modified system as well! It is definitely less onerous compared to the point system I brought up earlier. Kind of the best of both worlds.

[209x50]

Thanks for the email Setterman. By the looks of the email we are about to embark on an experiment with our sheep regulations.
Swaro you should send Rob your proposal for feedback, see what he thinks.
It is depressing how the government only thinks of how to further restrict the existing seasons and WMUs rather than reopening some of the hunting land we have lost.

[bowhuntercam]

If it can be determined that our current system can sustain sheep populations (at current harvests rates) then any loss of opportunity is a tremendous loss to all hunters. 5 year waits, putting general areas on draw are ideas that will reduce opportunity. Instead of cutting back opportunity we should be fighting for longer seasons, new areas and seasons to be opened. Anyone who supports a reduction in the opportunity now available is harming the sport of hunting and the opportunity of fellow hunters.
Cam

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Thanks for the email Setterman. By the looks of the email we are about to embark on an experiment with our sheep regulations.
Swaro you should send Rob your proposal for feedback, see what he thinks.
It is depressing how the government only thinks of how to further restrict the existing seasons and WMUs rather than reopening some of the hunting land we have lost.

I am just typing the email up now!
But wondering if Bulletproofs modified might system might stand a better chance as it would probably mean less work for them?

[Setterman]

Any legislation that restricts hunting oppurtunities is something that I would not support but...... out of all the suggestions that I have read on this board and talked about with friends and family I would be most likely to support BulletProofs idea centered around 8 year old sheep. I think I will email Rob again as well and suggest this proposal. Cheers SM

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

If it can be determined that our current system can sustain sheep populations (at current harvests rates) then any loss of opportunity is a tremendous loss to all hunters. 5 year waits, putting general areas on draw are ideas that will reduce opportunity. Instead of cutting back opportunity we should be fighting for longer seasons, new areas and seasons to be opened. Anyone who supports a reduction in the opportunity now available is harming the sport of hunting and the opportunity of fellow hunters.
Cam

A very big X2 Bowhunter cam! Well said.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

I am just typing the email up now!
But wondering if Bulletproofs modified might system might stand a better chance as it would probably mean less work for them?

Dunno, it is simpler.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

If it can be determined that our current system can sustain sheep populations (at current harvests rates) then any loss of opportunity is a tremendous loss to all hunters. 5 year waits, putting general areas on draw are ideas that will reduce opportunity. Instead of cutting back opportunity we should be fighting for longer seasons, new areas and seasons to be opened. Anyone who supports a reduction in the opportunity now available is harming the sport of hunting and the opportunity of fellow hunters.
Cam

So if there already is a low number of mature rams then what is longer seasons, new areas and new seasons gunna do for us?
You guys say us wanting more big rams out there is us looking for an easy book ram? Well by adding this stuff arent you guys looking for the easier little ram?

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by bonedogg

Make it a once in a lifetime acheivement. You can hunt them every year,general or draw, but only kill one in your lifetime.

No offense, but IMO that's a terrible idea. If they brought that in I'd be willing to bet you'd see the number of hunters buying sheep tags increase dramatically. There would be a whole lot of wives, girlfriends, aunts, uncles, ect. (you get the idea) who suddenly decide to take up sheep hunting, or least go along on the hunt with a tag in their pocket, if you get my drift.

[steve]

What is Rob Corrigans email adress

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by delburnedave

No offense, but IMO that's a terrible idea. If they brought that in I'd be willing to bet you'd see the number of hunters buying sheep tags increase dramatically. There would be a whole lot of wives, girlfriends, aunts, uncles, ect. (you get the idea) who suddenly decide to take up sheep hunting, or least go along on the hunt with a tag in their pocket, if you get my drift.

Great point!

[steve]

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

If it can be determined that our current system can sustain sheep populations (at current harvests rates) then any loss of opportunity is a tremendous loss to all hunters. 5 year waits, putting general areas on draw are ideas that will reduce opportunity. Instead of cutting back opportunity we should be fighting for longer seasons, new areas and seasons to be opened. Anyone who supports a reduction in the opportunity now available is harming the sport of hunting and the opportunity of fellow hunters.
Cam

Like or not decreased oppurtunity = more mature rams


Increased oppurtunity is not what anyone is after on here

[sheepguide]

I like bulletproofs idea also and the opening of a single draw tag(maybe one rifle and one archery) in the zones with a park or sanctuary influence would also work and them draws could be once in a lifetime like the goat. Still be able to get a general tag just not late season draw tags. There are also some zones that have no park or sanctuary influence that could be open to a late archery season after general season.

[Setterman]

Rob Corrigan [Rob.Corrigan@gov.ab.ca]

[decker]

I don't think waiting five years after you get a Ram would be such a bad Idea. It would relieve some pressure on the amount of hunters after a ram,

[Gulo gulo]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Thank you.
IF it was determined by a sanctioned study that hunting was affecting the overall age of the herd, THEN I'd be willing to look at strategies to change the hunt. Right now I’m dead against any off them.
If hunting was effecting the age of the herd then we are killing too many rams. Correct? Do we all agree on that?
So we would need a system to reduce the numbers of rams killed.
The 5 year wait plan MIGHT work IF we were at a 20% success rate for hunters. Then by the 6th year around 80% of the hunters wouldn’t be able to hunt and the number of rams killed might go down. Might. With our current success rate of 5 to 7% the wait would need to be in the neighbourhood of 20 years and even then with the uncontrollable factors of hunter numbers and the so many other things that can happen over that time period the outcome is far from certain.
So the 5 year plan doesn’t reduce rams killed - doesn’t put more sheep on the mountain.
Swaro’s plan to reward the guy who just won the lottery with no punishment to the sliding scale through the age classes is fraught with its own perils but overlooks the fact that most guys just want one sheep and are going to shoot the first legal ram they see, so what if there is a 6 year penalty attached.
This plan doesn’t guarantee any reduction of ram kills so no more sheep on the mountain. In addition either of these systems have been tested or proven anywhere that I’ve been able to discover.
A draw is the only certain way to control how many sheep are killed each year and we have plenty of evidence how well draws work with our other species in Alberta. However with a draw most people would be lucky to draw one tag or two in a lifetime.
As I said above I’m not in favour with any of these plans and until there is some hard evidence that we need to do something I think it is counter productive to meddle with the system.

209
The only study I am aware of is Geist's that was done in Banff. I don't have the book in front of me but the stats on rams went something like this. 83% or rams made it to 6 years of age, 50% made it to 10 years of age. They basically start to die when they start to breed and fight. So hunting obviously effects the overall age of the herd.



Setterman, thanks for the post
I'm a little frustrated with the lack of transparency with F&W. Why was there no public consultation on this change? I think it has been agreed on this board that the 5 year wait will not put older rams on the mountain. A little communication goes along ways sometimes

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

209
The only study I am aware of is Geist's that was done in Banff. I don't have the book in front of me but the stats on rams went something like this. 83% or rams made it to 6 years of age, 50% made it to 10 years of age. They basically start to die when they start to breed and fight. So hunting obviously effects the overall age of the herd.



Setterman, thanks for the post
I'm a little frustrated with the lack of transparency with F&W. Why was there no public consultation on this change? I think it has been agreed on this board that the 5 year wait will not put older rams on the mountain. A little communication goes along ways sometimes

No matter how you look at it a 5 year wait is gunna take a few hunters out of the equation and if it doesnt work its not gunna hurt the sheep population. I think with them picking this as a possability then it must have a little merrit. Im sure they didnt just out of the blue say lets try this im sure they did some numbers and looked at some stats that we dont have and figure it will provoke some change. If not why wouldnt they do a straight draw like they did with all other species? Makes no difference to them in the long run if you wait or you draw.
SG

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Setterman

As well, recent aerial surveys conducted post-hunting season in some bighorn sheep populations has demonstrated a decrease in the number and percentage of mature rams within a population. The trophy sheep harvest has also decreased from the 1990’s while the number of sheep hunters has remained relatively constant.

Seems that they dont agree with your idea that sheep populations are as good as they have been 209. Guess them Biologists that you refered to didnt learn to count since the Grizz study. Either that or they only share the true numbers with you.

It also states that hunter numbers has remained fairly constant so if so many new guys are taking up sheep hunting as you stated wouldnt these numbers rise a little?

Hmmm and sheep harvests are down. Guess that is no reason for improvment like you have been bashing this whole thread.

If your gunna say and implement that im unintellegent you should straighten a few of your facts out.
SG

[Tundra Monkey]

WOOOHOOOOO!!!

Post # 600

Thanx for the ride

tm