Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Trapping Discussion

View Poll Results: Would you support two tiered Trapper training?
Yes, I would support a resolution like that. 14 45.16%
No, I would not support a resolution like that. 14 45.16%
Not sure or have a different idea. 3 9.68%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:07 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default Trapping Resolution Input

I'm working on an ATA resolution and I'm looking for input from Trappers wrt it.

The newest agreement wrt acquiring an RFMA or being a Junior on on one, makes it mandatory for individuals who have not attended a Basic Trapping course in the past 10 years, to attend one. This seems redundant to me. Does a Trapper with years of experience really need to re-learn how to trap and put up muskrats all over again? By the same token, does a Resident Trapper who'll never trap Class A furbearers really need to know everything about them?

What I'm considering is how much more effective and efficient a two tiered Trapper training system would be. What I'm contemplating submitting is a resolution to revamp the Basic Trapping course to exclude Class A furbearers thus reducing the length of the course by one day and lowering the cost of the course to make it more accessible for entry level Trappers. A one day RFMA course specifically for Class A furbearers could be developed for more experienced Trappers who will be trapping them. This would also reduce the duration and cost for the course.

I am soliciting the input from Trappers about this idea and would like to know your thoughts on the pro's and con's of a two tiered training system for Trappers and value any and all input from you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:22 PM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default

On another thread it was suggested that many new trappers don't know how to or don't care to put in the effort to properly prepare a pelt for market.

I have never taken a trapping course but if three days is all that is required I would suggest that such a course is woefully inadequate.

I learned trapping by first watching my dad, then making sets for small fur-bearers, Weasel and Squirrel. From there I graduated to preparing pelts my dad had caught. Just the badly damaged ones. Then on to making sets for Beaver, Lynx, and the rest, with dad critiquing my work.

And that was just the beginning of my trapping education. Over the years I learned from others and I learned from books. I also learned from trial and error but that's not usually the best way to learn.

The whole process took years and continues to this day.



I do agree that it makes no sense to require a experienced trapper to take a course, however, a test of basic knowledge and pelt handling ability might make some sense.

As for your resolution, I can't support it because I believe the whole program doesn't go nearly far enough.

I think making it easier will only attract more lazy people to the profession and I think that will ultimately turn public opinion against us and that will spell the end of trapping, forever.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:46 AM
dugh dugh is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WMU 250
Posts: 745
Default

Dave, you may have a great idea. Perhaps more importantly is that you are starting a dialogue now, with plenty of time for discussion before the ATA AGM in September. I'm not an expert on ATA governance and could be very wrong but I think every resolution I have seen has been brought forward by a local.
That's my shameless plug for the Greater Edmonton Local meeting this Sunday at 2pm at Lloyd's place. It could be our last meeting before the AGM and would be a good time to have possible resolutions on the agenda.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:37 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,230
Default

Dave respect your effort to resolve the trapping course issue. However believe Dugh is correct on how to move a resolution forward. Lastly we still need a mechanism to respect guys like Keg who have enormous 40 years of real trapline experience with good mentors, then being told now need to take a 3 day course to buy a RFMA. Biologists need to recognize 5+ years of previous good fur numbers and previous trappers license as equivalent to 3 day course.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-08-2017, 11:16 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
AO Sponsor
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,468
Default

I think change is already in the air, and a double tiered system might be in the works? Im not sure, but I think the second level would be based more upon ensuring trappers receive advanced training ie snaring vs boreal/agriculture region species.

We need to be careful or else we could end up with UK style law where you cant even pee outside without a permit.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:35 PM
dugh dugh is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WMU 250
Posts: 745
Default

Ironically someone like Keg would likely be welcomed as a course instructor but not be eligible to purchase a line if the Province moves ahead with all their proposed changes. But keep in mind that this is only in the discussion stage, as far as I know there have been no changes yet. So support the board and remember, in any negotiation there is give and take and in any battle you have to pick the hill you're willing to die on. Is this requirement the hill? Or is there something else maybe a bigger issue at hand? The ATA has a history of promoting education and I think the Province will respect that. That being said, the discussion has to start somewhere and like I said before, now is a good time. Just food for thought, I don't know any more than folks here.
Thanks for listening.
Doug
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-08-2017, 02:03 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default

There is nothing in the bylaws that states that resolutions have to be submitted through a Local. There are a lot of members that don't belong to a Local so that makes sense to me. It would be great if Locals discussed this issue among themselves and develop their own resolution.

Short of creating a longer, more expensive Basic Trapping course, I don't think that the course is designed to produce Trappers who are immediately proficient with trapping and putting up fur for all furbearers. How many days would be required just for beaver, for example? The course is merely a foundation to build upon and new Trappers still need mentoring and hands on experience after taking the course. This is where experienced Trappers need to step up and offer guidance to new Trappers. IMO making the course longer and more expensive would be detrimental to ensuring that the course is affordable and accessible to everyone that wants to start trapping. Alberta already has the most expensive Basic Trapping course of all the provinces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty S View Post
I think change is already in the air, and a double tiered system might be in the works? Im not sure, but I think the second level would be based more upon ensuring trappers receive advanced training ie snaring vs boreal/agriculture region species.

We need to be careful or else we could end up with UK style law where you cant even pee outside without a permit.
If change is in the air I haven't heard anything about it and I have contacted both the President and the VP about the new trapline relinquishment system. The ATA is making great progress in keeping the membership informed and if this is something that's in the works then perhaps it would be good to communicate that to the membership. Regardless, I think that a formal resolution is best as casual conversation about issues like this don't seem to go anywhere.

I hear you loud and clear wrt the over regulation in the UK, Amen to that. I lived in Germany for 5 years and I experienced it first hand. Want to hunt, fish or even just ride an ATV.......Take a course! The end result is that only people well off with the disposable income can afford to participate in those activities. I don't think that we need that anywhere in Canada.

The big issue now is ensuring that RFMA's are being used as actual traplines. So, who is going to put in the most effort to trap them? A Trapper who can afford these courses and who is not dependent on the income that trapping generates, or a Trapper who NEEDS the income but can't afford to take the courses? I think that streamlining the course(s) and making them more affordable is in the best interests of trapping in Alberta.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-08-2017, 05:11 PM
CF8889's Avatar
CF8889 CF8889 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 517
Default

You bring up some interesting thoughts for me. I'm interested in learning trapping. Like all aspects of the outdoors, it's a huge part of our heritage. But I can't learn. I don't get enough time off for the mandatory course, nor can I afford the $400 course cost + time off + travel from calgary. Seems like there's no way to slowly learn over time. It's either you're all in or you're out. Seems odd to me I need more training to snare a muskrat then I do to hunt a black bear with a high powered rifle. I'll be keeping an eye on this progression

Edit: two tiers would also allow people to learn the basics then later on advance to the second course if it was of interest to them.
__________________
Let er buck!

Last edited by CF8889; 03-08-2017 at 05:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:31 PM
drake's Avatar
drake drake is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,553
Default

I support the resolution .....I'll bring up for conversation at this weekends meeting.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:22 AM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default Another trapper, gone to his rewards.

It is with profound sadness that I say, another old trapper went to the big forest in the sky this week.

I wish you all could have know Jack Christian of Carcajou. I know no one who could flesh a beaver hide as fast or as clean as Jack could, but Jack was so much more the a trapper.
He was an incredible fellow. He could call Moose better then anyone I know. He worked hard and played hard and he loved people, especially kids.

Jack taught a lot of young guys in this area to trap and to be the best they could be.
To give you a glimpse into his character, one day I was grading the Carcajou road and I see a pickup coming up fast behind me flashing it's lights.
It was Jack and his big issue was that he was teaching is young nephew to trap and the lad had just caught his first Lynx.
Jack just had to tell someone he was so proud. That someone happened to be me. I felt incredibly honored.


I was thinking about Jack today and about how he love to teach trapping.
Guys like Jack are becoming scarce.
Many have already gone and those of us who remain don't have a lot of time left.

I get the need for the course to be affordable. And obviously there aren't enough old trappers left to mentor the new guys.

I do what I can locally but I'm on a fixed income and can't afford to travel far.
Not even for my business, which BTW isn't turning a profit yet.

I'll have to think about this more, maybe your way is the best avenue at this time. I do know that there are times when a compromise is better then nothing at all.
Moreover, those who refuse to accept change are doomed to become a footnote in history.

I'll change my stance to undecided at this time.

I have to say, from what I see here, the future of trapping is in good hands.
You young fellas are every thing a good trapper should be. Open to new ideas, willing to get involved, willing to do the hard work, and most of all, you care about the animals you catch.

Ultimately, even if I decide to not support your resolution, I have no doubt that you guys are in it for the long haul and in the end you will make it work.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:35 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drake View Post
I support the resolution .....I'll bring up for conversation at this weekends meeting.
Being that it was originally your idea I thought that you might.

Just to be clear......What I'm proposing is to shorten the Basic course by eliminating the Class A furbearers and develope an RFMA course with class A furbearers. I see this as an opportunity to make both courses more affordable for everyone and I hope that it doesn't evolve into an opportunity to generate more revenue by developing another $400 RFMA course.

Making the Basic course mandatory was supposedly the "Bios" idea so hopefully people don't suddenly decide that a whole bunch more that is not in the trapping manual is required.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:52 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default

Sorry to hear about your trapping buddy, Keg. My condolences.

Times certainly have changed with people only passing on knowledge if you pay them for it. Fear not, there are many of us that are keen on attracting new Trappers and mentoring them. Creating a formal mentoring system for new trappers has been discussed amongst ourselves and pursuing a program like that within the ATA may be something worth considering. Imagine a network of volunteer Trappers throughout Alberta ready to mentor new Trappers coming off of the Basic course. I think that it would be great!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:04 PM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
Imagine a network of volunteer Trappers throughout Alberta ready to mentor new Trappers coming off of the Basic course. I think that it would be great!
I would sign up for that in a minute.

There is program for bird watchers that one can volunteer for, to guide bird watchers in areas not familiar to those bird watchers.

It lists volunteers who are willing to give of their time to show other bird watchers the best places to find birds in the volunteers area.
It is a world wide list accessible to anyone, for free.

I am one of it's local volunteers.

I tell you this to show that your idea can work very well. It's a great idea.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:22 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default

It sure would be nice to know the reasons for not supporting a resolution like this. Nine people are opposed to it but no reason as to why?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:39 PM
H380's Avatar
H380 H380 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WMU 108
Posts: 6,286
Default

Dave , I hope this training idea is not a step toward having "ALL" trappers required to take the course . Hardly fair for those of us that have trapped for 40 + years to be required to take it .
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:00 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by H380 View Post
Dave , I hope this training idea is not a step toward having "ALL" trappers required to take the course . Hardly fair for those of us that have trapped for 40 + years to be required to take it .
I hear ya. I would rather that the whole idea of having to take an extra course just to work on an RFMA be quashed completely however that is what the ATA agreed to, so to me, that ship has sailed and there isn't much point in trying to get rid of it.

IMO the best bet is to ensure that it doesn't develop into another expensive mandatory course, which I know some people will lobby for. There are people out there lobbying to make the Basic Trapping course mandatory for everyone that hasn't taken it in the past ten years AND making the course mandatory to attend periodically (ie every ten years?). No thank you.....total baloney!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.