Wild sheep

[RZR]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

No it doesn’t lie at all.
It Merely indicates that Ram harvest numbers have fluctuated since the 70’s
Habitat, predation, loss of hunting areas, not taking enough ewes, or something as simple as a it could have been a very cold wet spring 6-8 years prior which resulted in high lamb mortality.
Bluedog

The hard winter with all the flooding in the spring of 2013 really changed the numbers of harvests on your chart. The hard winter of 1995 and the flooding in the spring changed the harvest numbers as well. Now if you broke it down by zones you’d see an even further decrease in harvest numbers in some zones

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

Wow. Perhaps I learned to write at a different school too. What are you trying to say moose.

We look at the same data and see two different things. Harvest rates are stable. Smoke early season has slowed down harvest the last few years. There is no need for change to bighorn sheep hunting.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Thinking your having vision problems. Can’t yourself killing another ram and trying to lay blame.

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

We look at the same data and see two different things. Harvest rates are stable. Smoke early season has slowed down harvest the last few years. There is no need for change to bighorn sheep hunting.

What was your first comment meant to say?

Harvest numbers are stable at a lower level than the past after a long decline?

We used to harvest a significantly higher number of rams. Thats what the data says. I don’t understand how anyone can interpret the numbers in any other way.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

What was your first comment meant to say?

Harvest numbers are stable at a lower level than the past after a long decline?

We used to harvest a significantly higher number of rams. Thats what the data says. I don’t understand how anyone can interpret the numbers in any other way.

We’re looking at the data and seeing two different things. Your having vision problems!

[bdub]

How is your math moose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Looks cyclical to me. 1970 and 1999 you could have been jumping up and down as well.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Looks cyclical to me. 1970 and 1999 you could have been jumping up and down as well.

Ok, if that's how you want to look at it I guess. The down part of this cycle has lasted about 30 years now.

We had a steady uptrend after 1970 when they changed it to 4/5 curl from 3/4.

I get why outfitters are so dead against any changes.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

Ok, if that's how you want to look at it I guess. The down part of this cycle has lasted about 30 years now.

We had a steady uptrend after 1970 when they changed it to 4/5 curl from 3/4.

I get why outfitters are so dead against any changes.

Lots have changed since back then and none of it in the favour of hunter or the sheep. Think about access, habitat, predators. If we made an effort on these fronts and harvest rates did not trend in the right direction . Then changes to hunting opportunities would have to happen and would have my full support.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Lots have changed since back then and none of it in the favour of hunter or the sheep. Think about access, habitat, predators. If we made an effort on these fronts and harvest rates did not trend in the right direction . Then changes to hunting opportunities would have to happen and would have my full support.

Absolutely agree lots has changed. We went through a boom of easy access due to the acceptance of almost unlimited atv access through out the mountains. Thankfully that is starting to change for the better. We have been fighting fires rather than letting nature do it's thing with fire for far to long. Predators, I'm all for thinning them down a lot but the overall population numbers don't point to extreme predation on our sheep. If it did we would see a declining population rather than a stable one over many years.

Sheep hunters nowadays think nothing of walking in 20 miles to hunt sheep. we have had an explosion in equipment allowing us to do that with ease. Optics are better, equipment is better. We can communicate in the back country via inreach and even cell phone in many spots. Things have definitely changed, we are overharvesting 5-7 year old rams consistently over the last thirty years.

We are not erring on the side of caution in our harvest strategy, we are managing for maximum harvest. It's nuts I think and screwing it up for the future.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Lots have changed since back then and none of it in the favour of hunter or the sheep. Think about access, habitat, predators. If we made an effort on these fronts and harvest rates did not trend in the right direction . Then changes to hunting opportunities would have to happen and would have my full support.

Lots of guys say that but then go on to discount any evidence that things are on the decline. if we did in fact go to something like full curl it would be a big change. The outfitters would be rightfully crapping about a change to full curl, residents would see minimal harvest for a few years before things caught up. Lots of reasons to maintain the status quo and that's probably the way it will remain until it is overwhelmingly evident things need to change. It seems that is the way we manage wildlife in this province, politically.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

Lots of guys say that but then go on to discount any evidence that things are on the decline. if we did in fact go to something like full curl it would be a big change. The outfitters would be rightfully crapping about a change to full curl, residents would see minimal harvest for a few years before things caught up. Lots of reasons to maintain the status quo and that's probably the way it will remain until it is overwhelmingly evident things need to change. It seems that is the way we manage wildlife in this province, politically.

I don’t care what the outfitters or residents would think. Hopefully everyone would embrace a change if deemed necessary. But again let’s try and manage habitat and predators. Help the sheep out.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I don’t care what the outfitters or residents would think. Hopefully everyone would embrace a change if deemed necessary. But again let’s try and manage habitat and predators. Help the sheep out.

If you recall they deemed it necessary a couple years ago and there was such a crap show that nothing got done. Outfitters tried to throw residents under the bus, residents sheep hunters were going bananas.

Where do you draw the line on deeming something necessary. When the biologists think something is wrong, when we aren't meeting measures of the management plan? Or when residents and outfitters think it's necessary. If it is the latter than nothing will ever change I don't think. Sheep hunting quality will continue to decline.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

If you recall they deemed it necessary a couple years ago and there was such a crap show that nothing got done. Outfitters tried to throw residents under the bus, residents sheep hunters were going bananas.

Where do you draw the line on deeming something necessary. When the biologists think something is wrong, when we aren't meeting measures of the management plan? Or when residents and outfitters think it's necessary. If it is the latter than nothing will ever change I don't think. Sheep hunting quality will continue to decline.

I draw the line when we’ve exhausted every effort to help the sheep out ol son.

[Bluedog]

Back in the 90’s you could travel for days before you found a Cougar tack to chase. Now we tree a Cougar almost every time we go out. This year the CMAs for the mountain zones stayed open for males all season. We should see an increase in harvest numbers in 6-8 years. I’d be all for a 100% ATV or Motor vehicle BAN in all Mountain zones during Sheep season.
Bluedog

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

What was your first comment meant to say?

Harvest numbers are stable at a lower level than the past after a long decline?

We used to harvest a significantly higher number of rams. Thats what the data says. I don’t understand how anyone can interpret the numbers in any other way.

Your arguing for what, you want less sheep harvested and that's what has happened since the 70's

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

If you recall they deemed it necessary a couple years ago and there was such a crap show that nothing got done. Outfitters tried to throw residents under the bus, residents sheep hunters were going bananas.

Where do you draw the line on deeming something necessary. When the biologists think something is wrong, when we aren't meeting measures of the management plan? Or when residents and outfitters think it's necessary. If it is the latter than nothing will ever change I don't think. Sheep hunting quality will continue to decline.

But yet they say our sheep numbers are stable!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by RZR

Your arguing for what, you want less sheep harvested and that's what has happened since the 70's

You are unreal. You got to do a little better job of following on their RZR if that's what you got from my posts.

I have always said we need to harvest fewer 5-7 yr old rams.

[bdub]

Check your data but this is what I come up with. We got to do a better job and stop harvesting this many young rams. It's idiotic.

Last two years legal res/nonres harvest averaged 132.5 rams.
Legal harvest composed of rams 7.5 years or younger averaged 75 rams a year.
Percentage of harvest that consists of young rams is 56.6%

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

You are unreal. You got to do a little better job of following on their RZR if that's what you got from my posts.

I have always said we need to harvest fewer 5-7 yr old rams.

Don't the two go hand in hand. Few sheep being harvested means fewer 6-7 yr. Old rams being harvested.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

Check your data but this is what I come up with. We got to do a better job and stop harvesting this many young rams. It's idiotic.

Last two years legal res/nonres harvest averaged 132.5 rams.
Legal harvest composed of rams 7.5 years or younger averaged 75 rams a year.
Percentage of harvest that consists of young rams is 56.6%

I’ve consistently seen rams aged a year younger by f&w.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I’ve consistently seen rams aged a year younger by f&w.

I think they are paying closer attention the last couple years. These are 2017/18 numbers. They aged all my rams bang on and any rams that I have been involved with bang on.

Maybe just your luck.

[medicmoose]

What is it that you think you are going to achieve by doing this? biologists have already said that by the time a ram is 6 years old they are in a decline of heath and decline in breeding. is anyone listening you cant stock pile rams to make them older. it does not work.
Harvest numbers in the 80-90s were higher. access was allot better and he had 1/3 more hunters buying tags than we do today.
harvest stats can be bent how ever you want them. They go up and down all the time. bad hunting years tough springs all play a role into how many rams make the legal 4/5 by end of august.
What if I told you 2015 there was 230 rams killed?
the agv age of rams killed in Alberta is 8 so thats saying just as many 10 year olds are being taken as 6 year olds.
what you are trying to do is re-define what a mature ram is.
Bios have already said what mature is end of story.
The only reason APOS wanted change was so they can start charging more residents lucky enough to a have sheep tag a guiding fee. and allocation holders perhaps more $$ for their tags.

Originally Posted by bdub

Check your data but this is what I come up with. We got to do a better job and stop harvesting this many young rams. It's idiotic.

Last two years legal res/nonres harvest averaged 132.5 rams.
Legal harvest composed of rams 7.5 years or younger averaged 75 rams a year.
Percentage of harvest that consists of young rams is 56.6%

[MooseRiverTrapper]

I don’t know if there is any point medic. Scary part is bdub is the enemy of the general season broomed ram hunter.

[Bluedog]

What is the average life expectancy of Big Horn Rams in Alberta Bdub?
I’ve read that the average Big Horn lives until he is 7-8 I believe this to be true and here’s why. In 2000 I shot a Ram out of a Band of 53 Rams over 30 were legal 6-9 years old. I watched them for 2.5 hours before I shot what I thought was the biggest. The Ram was 8.5 years old.
I told this same story to an old time Sheep hunter a few years later. I hunted the same area hard for the next few years and never seen any rams over 5-6 years old. So I ask him were they went, he told me most had passed away at 7-8 years old, hard Rut and hard winter they have turned to dirt.
Bluedog

[bdub]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

What if I told you 2015 there was 230 rams killed?
the agv age of rams killed in Alberta is 8 so thats saying just as many 10 year olds are being taken as 6 year olds.

If you are talking resident and nonresident harvest I would say your you are full of crap. Your number includes all known mortality in 2015. Try to compare apple to apples moose and come back with the correct answer. Just a hint, it's less than 230.

And your math sucks if you think that since the average age = 8, then just as many 6yr olds are being taken as ten year olds. Go check your numbers. Harvest of ten yr old plus rams in 2015 by licenced res/non res was 20 rams, under 12% of the total legal res/nonres harvest. And an almost identical percentage in 2017/2018. That what I see with a quick look at the spread sheet.

You guys are brutal, at least get your ducks in a row when you want to debate something. Quit passing off BS as facts and misrepresenting the data.

[medicmoose]

I would say 6 is the average age

Originally Posted by Bluedog

What is the average life expectancy of Big Horn Rams in Alberta Bdub?
I’ve read that the average Big Horn lives until he is 7-8 I believe this to be true and here’s why. In 2000 I shot a Ram out of a Band of 53 Rams over 30 were legal 6-9 years old. I watched them for 2.5 hours before I shot what I thought was the biggest. The Ram was 8.5 years old.
I told this same story to an old time Sheep hunter a few years later. I hunted the same area hard for the next few years and never seen any rams over 5-6 years old. So I ask him were they went, he told me most had passed away at 7-8 years old, hard Rut and hard winter they have turned to dirt.
Bluedog

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I don’t know if there is any point medic. Scary part is bdub is the enemy of the general season broomed ram hunter.

WTef does this even mean? Enemy of the general season broomed ram hunter? That's the second whacked out comment you made about me that makes zero sense. Why don't you explain it and the other one.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

WTef does this even mean? Enemy of the general season broomed ram hunter? That's the second whacked out comment you made about me that makes zero sense. Why don't you explain it and the other one.

I’m done here bdub. Thankfully your not in charge.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

What is the average life expectancy of Big Horn Rams in Alberta Bdub?

That depends on where you are looking. Obviously outside the parks it is much lower because of hunting pressure.

From V. Geist book Mountain Sheep the average he got in the Banff study area the mean age at death was calculated at 10.12 years with a standard deviation of 3.2 years. 95% of the rams that make it through the first year live had a minimum life expectancy of 3.7 years, 50% survived until age 10. Mortality is low between age 2-8.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

I think they are paying closer attention the last couple years. These are 2017/18 numbers. They aged all my rams bang on and any rams that I have been involved with bang on.

Maybe just your luck.

And just how did they age your ram? Don’t go by counting rings, that isn’t a tried and true way of aging. If you think it is you’ve been living a dream.