Lets summarize the ballistics discussions of late then...

[Don_Parsons]

I agree, what went wrong with the shot, shooting to far, shot placement, flintch, not enough range time. Shooting past ones abilities, angle of critter, terrain, the outdoor elements,,, ect...

I'm sure the odd animal has eluded capture in the quest of harvesting, I had this happen with a 243 at 87 yards,,, nice hit.

Right threw the thing they call the empty zone.
Didn't find it to the next day as the Coyotes finished it up, crap happens, so I jumped into the big bore world and went into a 25 year stretch of shoot and gather. LOL.

It become so boring I headed to the archery side for 14 years, now at year 22 in the part time now.

Last year was a total miss on a medium size buck last year after putting in lots of bench time.

Not my shooting skills on that total miss,,, SFP optics. Ha,,, my OCD got the best of me on that one. Ha.

FFP from here on in.

If a person hunts enough, there will the days when things aren't perfect with the precision we hope for, that's part of being human I guess.

We can only hope that we've give it our all with the limits and tools we have.

I hope this crappy winchester 22 ammo works for me today, once it's burnt up,,,.I'll make sure I don't buy any more for my 22. I hope other folks are having better luck with it then I.

All about good times as the camp spot is all rigged up. Ye Ha. Bent arrows work up close, this we know. Ha

[catnthehat]

Guys, it was a bad shot, nothing to do with anything else - Kurt has mentioned this several times on various threads , why obsess about something that he did so long ago?
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Looking at the characteristics and limitations of 6.5 Grendel i think i would be better off introducing kids with self loaded 110 grain 308 bullets. Between cheap hornady Vmax and monometal Barnes TTSX. Can start mild and then load up to 3150fps. They would have the same recoil as 243 win and 6.5 grendel. Barnes TTSX at 3150 would do very well deer hunting and the trajectories and energy absolutely destroy 6.5 grendel. After they get used to 110s, can bump up to 130s, 150s, and then to 165s for the proper elk hunting round. I think ill stick to 308 as the do everything cartridge.

i don't reload

but agree that the versatility of any cartridge is multiplied exponentially if one does reload, i gots so many pies my finners are into

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by KodiakHntr

Your argument is that sd rules penetration though, so how could three bullets with identical sd have different penetration characteristics by your theory?

at some point you have to lump any controlled expansion bullets into a group...the scale goes from solids to explosive frangible, our varmint bullets will be more on the explosive frangible end of things, the hunting bullets we choose range from rapid expansion to delayed expansion, the closer to a solid you get is the max depth it can go, so if a 139 gr solid is 100% then maybe your 3 bullets described range anywhere from 70-90% of that depth, depending on impact velocity (distance away from shooter)...and ballistic tips or other rapid expansion bullets maybe only penetrate 40-70% the depth of a solid as they often lose a fair bit of weight, rapidly expand and then shed the weight etc. so they don't go as deep

where s.d. comes into play is comparing penetration potential to another bullet, either a different weight, or a different caliber etc.

hope that helps

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Slicktricker

I can’t believe this has gone on 5 pages listening to stinky coyotes about as interesting as a Justin bieber song you can go on all for months about cartridges who cares about bc or sd or size of bullet. If you can’t put said bullet where it belongs does it really matter? I know I’m not as experienced as most but I’ve shot a lot of game with different bullets and couldn’t tell a lick of difference from 140 to 175 grain bullets

beautiful! 100% with this...sorry i'm boring

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

LOL .. i must have missed that one. It's amazing how they come up with these rationalizations... and from guys who profess to know what goes on. Ballistics are ballistics. Interpretations vary and real world results vary. Pick a winner and run with it. I don't think anyone really cares anyway. Interesting topic though.

out of context, you didn't miss it, it was about either through the lungs inside 300 yards, if there was a different degree of dead? anyway...

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

No, it makes me think you talk out of both sides of your mouth with your fingers planted knuckle deep in your ears. You got a mean case of selective learning and at this point in your life there nothing I can do to help you out.

lmfao

coffee everywhere

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

I disagree Salavee. The comment of 243 win being equal to 300 Win mag was probably more extreme than comparing 6.5 Grendel to 308 win.

lol, this was the one out of context, if only doing 300 yard work and was discussing boiler room shots then was curious how much more dead the animal would be with the 300 win mag over the .243? i'd love for a couple guys i know that only hunt with .243 for decades to hear the answer to this one...their walls would burst out laughing too

so if one is good with a tool the question might be what are you compensating for? here's a good analogy we could all relate, will your regular 4x4 half ton get you into where you need to go to recover your animal, or do you need a lifted super duty on 37's to go get it?

be as efficient as you like, but both are going to get the job done just fine, if shooting a cartridge that says magnum makes you feel...well....magnum, then have at er lol, we have the choices, but laughing at anyone that says one won't get the job done in the context given (0-300 yard boiler room shots)

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Im curious about those barnes ttsx and what kind of expansion they get at said velocities. Id like to hear more about the 300 wsm 165 ttsx shot. I dont remember if you mentioned the distance, Do you think it was at an impact velocity to get proper expansion?

It was 398yds according to my range finder, the shot was quartering towards me and it busted his front shoulder. As far as I knew the shot was perfect. After the shot it was a bang flop, he layed flat, not a twitch for about 10 minutes. I started walking back to the truck because I was positive he was dead ( biggest mistake of my hunting career). As I was walking back I got a text from my friends who were parked about 3/4 mile away saying he got up! I was in a low spot at the time so I made my way to higher ground and sure enough he was there. He could only hobble about 15-20 feet and then he'd stop. Now I was about 700 yards from him and legal Igbo was pretty much over. I was sure he was going to die judging from his actions so I left him for the night. The field I was hunting was on the banks of the athabasca river and he crossed the river over night (it was mostly frozen over). After about a 2 hour drive I crossed the river by bridge and started following the river bank to find his track. I found about a dozen beds where he was bleeding from his front left shoulder but never caught up to him. The next day it snowed and it was game over.

I think the bullet deflected but never recovered the deer so can't say for sure. If I had missed the shoulder I'm pretty sure I would have recovered him. My son shot a buck at pretty much the exact same distance with a 90gr accubond out of his 243 and after 60yds the buck dropped dead. All this crap guys are yapping about one cartridge being better than another is bs, and this I know for a fact.


If a 243 can drop a buck at 400yds and a 300wsm can wound one at 400yds, if you think it's not all about bullet construction and shot placement you're wrong. After experiencing this it was an eye opener and forever changed my way of thinking when it comes to cartridge and bullet choice.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Do you think it was at an impact velocity to get proper expansion?

According to Barnes the minimum performance velocity is 1800fps and on the chart (since I was using factory ammo at the time) it says Ithe bullet should have been going around 2300fps so it should have still been well within its proper expansion range.

[Don_Parsons]

Thanks for sharing Kurt, yes,,, I agree.

The old guy that took me under his arm showed me the second thing that needs doing after the the game is down.

Much like on the farm.

Ain't going no where till it's been bled.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

According to Barnes the minimum performance velocity is 1800fps and on the chart (since I was using factory ammo at the time) it says Ithe bullet should have been going around 2300fps so it should have still been well within its proper expansion range.

Thanks for sharing your info. I didnt intend to draw out a negative experience. Im still curious about the velocity needed to properly open up the ttsx, as well with any bullet type construction. As SD goes up, i think you need a lot more velocity to initiate expansion.

You said you used a monometal 2.48 SD. My experience with using 165 gr accubonds in 308 win, I get 2300 fps at about 250 yards. On deer at that distance i get near perfect penetration stopping on the far hide, sometimes getting an exit. Barnes website says their ttsx bullets penetrate 30% deeper than lead and copper jacket bullets. Accubond are about 10% better weight retention and penetration than standard bullets. Using Barnes website claim, a ttsx would have 20% more penetration than my accubonds. So i bet your shot exited and 80% of your energy got put into the animal before the bullet was out the other side.

I think based on barnes website claim of 30% more penetration with monometal bullets, the typical weight you would use in lead, should be dropped by 30%. If i use 165 accubond, i am going to try 130gr ttsx and 150gr ttsx. Between the lower sd and the higher velocity, i expect similar penetration... we will see one day down the road when i load some up and how they go.

Thank you for sharing your shot and distance info. No idea why animals do certain things sometimes.

[Stinky Coyote]

not to derail but i think i'd be inclined to see deflection inside the animal after hitting bone as what happened there too

i shot an elk with a 20 gauge federal barnes expander load from a savage 220f slug gun at 100 yards broadside and i have a perfectly barnes pedal expansion to about 1" diameter under offside hide through the lungs, and head was still up when i walked up to it and put one in the face and recovered that one about second vertebrae down neck and it didn't open at all, it had a bend in the tip a bit but interesting that i think it went along the nasal, then through brain got down spine a bit but the initial impact along side of nasal didn't let the tip push and start those pedals back properly? none of the pedals opened up, with a point blank shot to the head of an elk, yet the broadside shot the pedals opened perfectly from 100 yards....original bullet was 278 grains(from recollection) and .50" diameter, the broadside pedal open to 1" diam and lost only the plastic tip weight (2 grains)

so i like your guess Kurt with that mono metal possibly doing a similar deflection but also not opening up properly! just penciled along somewhere it didn't get the vitals but initial shoulder damage enough to slow him down for awhile, i've had an arrow do this also, steeper angle, ran along rib cage and jammed in under shoulder, finished that deer 200 yards away a few hours later after stiffened up but could have lost it, i'd bet something similar on your barnes buck experience

i like that theory enough to say that had you hit that buck with an accubond or ballistic tip/amax, that you'd have found him where he dropped initially, something fishy with those mono's

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

So i bet your shot exited and 80% of your energy got put into the animal before the bullet was out the other side.

I don't think the bullet exited the deer, in all the beds the blood was only on the front left shoulder area. That deer bled so much I am at a loss as to how it survived as long as it did.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I don't think the bullet exited the deer, in all the beds the blood was only on the front left shoulder area. That deer bled so much I am at a loss as to how it survived as long as it did.

deflected on shoulder, ran along ribs, maybe tucked into flank...see above, i've had a barnes fail to open and initial impact on an angle so to speak, i got to recover mine though and can send pics, they were posted on here quite some time ago

just points out bullet construction can play a huge factor, my experience prefers more rapid expansion bullets for slower impact velocities period

accubond as tough as i like personally

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I don't think the bullet exited the deer, in all the beds the blood was only on the front left shoulder area. That deer bled so much I am at a loss as to how it survived as long as it did.

Hmm that is interesting. I was just going to add to my message. I wonder if using monometal bullets are kind of a drawback. They give better penetration for light bullets. But lighter bullets have poor BC and would lose velocity quickly at distance, and now youve lost your expansion at distances closer than with lead. Maybe monometal is more for a specialized situation, say when im interested in introducing kids to hunting and they want to use something lighter than 165 gr accubond. The 110gr and 130gr ttsx would work well to maybe maximum 300 meters... after that theyve lost their speed.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Hmm that is interesting. I was just going to add to my message. I wonder if using monometal bullets are kind of a drawback. They give better penetration for light bullets. But lighter bullets have poor BC and would lose velocity quickly at distance, and now youve lost your expansion at distances closer than with lead. Maybe monometal is more for a specialized situation, say when im interested in introducing kids to hunting and they want to use something lighter than 165 gr accubond. The 110gr and 130gr ttsx would work well to maybe maximum 300 meters... after that theyve lost their speed.

Kurt can respond too, but i think if you read enough about guys who drive them at super speeds and only care about pbr killing ranges, like hot magnums 32-3400 fps etc. seem really happy with them and they drop stuff like lightning 0-400 yards type thing, you hear it a lot, i know a guy who runs a .308 and and the lighter barnes(i believe 130's) hot loaded and loves it for elk inside 400....but most reports i hear of guys really liking them seem to be from the guys running em really hot, you get the penetration as they will keep their s.d. relatively high as they don't shed weight where a regular bullets may end up with a finished weight near the lighter barnes as they shed weight at those impact speeds, it's just inefficient driving less s.d. at super speeds is all, it works though, the slower the speeds the more reason to get away from the tough super delayed expansion bullets imo, you have to find the balance that makes you happy for the game you intend to hunt

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Kurt can respond too, but i think if you read enough about guys who drive them at super speeds and only care about pbr killing ranges, like hot magnums 32-3400 fps etc. seem really happy with them and they drop stuff like lightning 0-400 yards type thing, you hear it a lot, i know a guy who runs a .308 and and the lighter barnes(i believe 130's) hot loaded and loves it for elk inside 400....but most reports i hear of guys really liking them seem to be from the guys running em really hot, you get the penetration as they will keep their s.d. relatively high as they don't shed weight where a regular bullets may end up with a finished weight near the lighter barnes as they shed weight at those impact speeds, it's just inefficient driving less s.d. at super speeds is all, it works though, the slower the speeds the more reason to get away from the tough super delayed expansion bullets imo, you have to find the balance that makes you happy for the game you intend to hunt

Im very happy with 30 cal 165 gr accubonds. Launching at 2750 fps, getting deer from as close as 6 meters and out, havent had any failed bullets. Ill definitely keep using them as my main load.

[Kurt505]

Like I had mentioned, after losing that buck with a 300wsm and a Barnes ttsx, and then the same year see my son shoot his buck at the same distance with a 243 and Nosler accubond it was an eye opener, made me rethink things.

These days my bullet choice matters way more than cartridge. I used to use a 140gr ballistic tip in my 280 and kill everything I shot at with them. Then I read on AO forum how terrible ballistic tips are so I switched bullets.

A lot of guys like the penetration you get with Barnes monometals but I prefer the explosion of the ballistic tips for quick kills. Controlled expansion like with accubonds and partitions are another option I like. No matter what bullet I use, and no matter what gun it comes out of, if I poke a hole in a lung or the heart the animal dies. If I don't poke the hole there then all bets are off.