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12-13-2018, 04:33 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Yes they can. Pudelpointers are excelled swimmers.
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Thanks so much for the insight. Might have to look into them a bit more. My research since today looks very promising. Know any Albertan Breeders?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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12-13-2018, 04:37 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: SJ, NB
Posts: 410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandlockedIslander
Can they hunt waterfowl as well?
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My dog loves the water, but I would not use a smoothcoat PP for cold weather waterfowl. The breeder stiplified this at the time of sale.
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"The majority is never right."
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12-13-2018, 06:12 PM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: SJ, NB
Posts: 410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandlockedIslander
Thanks so much for the insight. Might have to look into them a bit more. My research since today looks very promising. Know any Albertan Breeders?
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This member here had dogs in Alberta the last I spoke with him a couple yrs ago.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/member.php?u=17354
There are only 3 or 4 breeders in Canada. I bought mine in Ontario and had it shipped here to NB.
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"The majority is never right."
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12-13-2018, 09:42 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,927
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Probably the top PudelPointer breeder in North America is in Idaho. Bob Farris. It would be easy to drive down to pick up your pup.
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12-13-2018, 09:56 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatile
Probably the top PudelPointer breeder in North America is in Idaho. Bob Farris. It would be easy to drive down to pick up your pup.
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exactly
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12-13-2018, 10:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandlockedIslander
Thanks so much for the insight. Might have to look into them a bit more. My research since today looks very promising. Know any Albertan Breeders?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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With that type of investment don't limit yourself to Alberta. A couple of days driving, or having a pup flown , are well worth it to get a top quality pup.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-14-2018, 07:06 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,462
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The craziest thing a guy could do when making a lifetime investment is limit yourself to a local breeding. If that is the best you can find, fill your boots, but if not, you may regret it down the line.
I will never again personally buy, or allow a friend to buy a pup that is not from parents who are not field trialed or tested. Field trialing and hunt testing shows a commitment to producing the best dogs possible and bettering the breed. Sure there are great hunting dogs whose parents aren't, but this is the very best way of maximizing your chances of getting a dog with the natural drive, instincts, and biddability to do the job you are hoping it can eventually do.
Kijiji is full of BS artists out to make a buck on their backyard breeding whereas a plane ride for a puppy from an outstanding kennel is cheap. End of story.
Take it from one who has lived to regret not searching out what I have described, the cheapest money you will spend is the initial price of the dog.
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12-14-2018, 07:14 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,462
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If I were getting a Pudelpointer, I would be contacting Bob Farris for sure and be willing to wait a year.
If I were getting a Visla, I would be contacting these folks...
http://www.crimsonskyvizslas.com/
or
contact Dean Orosz of Ohaza Vizslas in Saskatoon
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12-14-2018, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Since he is in no hurry, I invited the OP to come out to a NAVHDA chapter field day, and watch some Pudepointers, WPGs, and possibly a Visla in action. He can at least see some of these dogs up close, instead of just looking at pictures.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-14-2018, 09:17 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alberta
Posts: 3,650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
The craziest thing a guy could do when making a lifetime investment is limit yourself to a local breeding. If that is the best you can find, fill your boots, but if not, you may regret it down the line.
I will never again personally buy, or allow a friend to buy a pup that is not from parents who are not field trialed or tested. Field trialing and hunt testing shows a commitment to producing the best dogs possible and bettering the breed. Sure there are great hunting dogs whose parents aren't, but this is the very best way of maximizing your chances of getting a dog with the natural drive, instincts, and biddability to do the job you are hoping it can eventually do.
Kijiji is full of BS artists out to make a buck on their backyard breeding whereas a plane ride for a puppy from an outstanding kennel is cheap. End of story.
Take it from one who has lived to regret not searching out what I have described, the cheapest money you will spend is the initial price of the dog.
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I do agree to do your research on breeders, but to think one needs to purchase their dog from a field trial or tested breeder is crazy.. I bet over 95% of those who own hunting / sporting breeds could never bring an average dog to their full potential.. The remaining 5 % who are experienced handlers may want to pursue the field trial line to satisfy their own personal needs.
To the original poster, good luck on your new addition.
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12-14-2018, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71
I do agree to do your research on breeders, but to think one needs to purchase their dog from a field trial or tested breeder is crazy.. I bet over 95% of those who own hunting / sporting breeds could never bring an average dog to their full potential.. The remaining 5 % who are experienced handlers may want to pursue the field trial line to satisfy their own personal needs.
To the original poster, good luck on your new addition.
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Read my post. I said it is insurance against falling prey to a backyard breeder. It is the best way to ensure you get a dog that has the traits that make for a good hunting dog. Field trials are a game, but the dogs that run in them typically have the genetic makeup to do things the average hunter is looking for. While trials are not hunting, it as as close as you can get, and the skills are very much transferable. I clearly said that there are many great dogs who don't match what I am saying, but I am giving advice that increases the odds of getting a good dog.
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12-14-2018, 09:56 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,112
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I have dog allergies but mostly to the dogs with oily coats labs and such. 10 min with a lab and I can feel my lungs clamping down.
The sniff test is very good idea, I did it with Large Munsterlanders and just about 7 years later my allergies mostly just bug me during turnover. My LM for most of the year sort of sheds, but twice a year the shedding is pretty epic.
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12-14-2018, 10:24 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Read my post. I said it is insurance against falling prey to a backyard breeder. It is the best way to ensure you get a dog that has the traits that make for a good hunting dog. Field trials are a game, but the dogs that run in them typically have the genetic makeup to do things the average hunter is looking for. While trials are not hunting, it as as close as you can get, and the skills are very much transferable. I clearly said that there are many great dogs who don't match what I am saying, but I am giving advice that increases the odds of getting a good dog.
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One reason I chose a Drahthaar breeder over a GWP breeder, is that in order for a pup to be registered as a Drahthaar, both parents must have passed the German system tests.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-14-2018, 02:40 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 1,529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
One reason I chose a Drahthaar breeder over a GWP breeder, is that in order for a pup to be registered as a Drahthaar, both parents must have passed the German system tests.
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Seems you have extensive experience with all types of dogs,when I read your posts. Wondering how many dogs you have raised and trained yourself?
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12-16-2018, 09:31 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rocky View County AB.
Posts: 3,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandlockedIslander
hey guys, been researching both breeds for a while and looking at getting one of each, however, my wife has allergies and we are hoping to hang out with one for a bit and see how bad they are. Does anyone have one?
thanks.
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Never had a Visla but all the years I ran a water fowl guide service a lot of clients would want to bring their dogs. I stopped the V because my observation was they were a one person dog and more than once had them take a chomp out of another hunter or go after another dog. I know it is mostly the trainer not the dog but that is just my experience. That being said I am a die hard Lab fan.
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12-16-2018, 10:43 AM
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: SJ, NB
Posts: 410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TROLLER
Never had a Visla but all the years I ran a water fowl guide service a lot of clients would want to bring their dogs. I stopped the V because my observation was they were a one person dog and more than once had them take a chomp out of another hunter or go after another dog. I know it is mostly the trainer not the dog but that is just my experience. That being said I am a die hard Lab fan.
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It's not always the the trainer or the lack of socialization. My PP has met with literally hundreds of dogs over the last 5yrs all with positive reinforcement. He has not been neutered and I've found that in the last 2yrs he will not suffer other male dogs in "his space". He is not aggressive and will not go after them but will turn on them if they approach him and bother him. Females are another story.
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"The majority is never right."
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12-16-2018, 11:26 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sylvan Lake
Posts: 3,423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71
I do agree to do your research on breeders, but to think one needs to purchase their dog from a field trial or tested breeder is crazy.. I bet over 95% of those who own hunting / sporting breeds could never bring an average dog to their full potential.. The remaining 5 % who are experienced handlers may want to pursue the field trial line to satisfy their own personal needs.
To the original poster, good luck on your new addition.
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X2 Field trial bloodlines can be too much for the vast majority. They are pushing genetics to make dogs faster, stronger and more aggressive. Dogs excelling are an absolute joy under the right guidance and an absolute nightmare for those limited for time, space and ability.
The other extreme is of course every bit as dangerous as some designer breeders have bred the brains and bird sense right out of their dogs.
Fortunately, many breeders have come to realize that a larger market exists for those willing to have a nice mix of hunting genetics and pet/show quality dogs.
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12-16-2018, 11:52 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sylvan Lake
Posts: 3,423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
I have a Drahthaar, and they most certainly do shed. Nowhere near a much as my friends Lab did, but they do shed. WPGs are supposedly hypoallergenic, and non shedding, but I don't have one, and can't confirm that. Temperament wise, bloodlines are the key factor, my dog is full of energy in the field, but very calm in the house, yet some GWPs are hyper in the house. The Vislas, GSPs, and GWPs and the similar breeds all require a lot of exercise, a 15 minute walk on a leash isn't enough for them. My dog runs off leash in a field for 45 minutes every day that he isn't hunting, which may also be a factor in him being so common in the house. As for getting two dogs, I would get one and train that dog, before getting a second one, training one at a time is enough for a new handler.
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You spent a lot of time on this dog, did extensive research, joined hunting clubs and sought out mentors to help you along the way.
As with most dogs, you get out what you put in. You obviously have put lots in and are reaping the rewards. I would suspect with this effort and commitment you could have had excellent results from several different breeds, including a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Temperament can vary drastically within a litter and even more so from different breeding. To suggest, from a cross section of one, that a Deutsch Drahthaar is a completely different and better animal than a German Wirehair Pointer is speculation at best. I am sure there are as many (probably more considering American ego) owners of GWPs that have the opposite view with much more experience.
The German Wirehaired Pointer was developed through decades of crossbreeding dogs such as Stichelhaars, Pudelpointers and German Shorthairs. They are strong, athletic, and physically designed to run and swim with exceptional control. They can find and point birds, track wounded game, and retrieve equally well on land or water. Personality-wise, German wirehairs can be intense, but they also are extremely biddable and learn quickly. Rarely are they “soft” dogs, which means novice trainers can make mistakes and the dogs will easily recover and relearn.
The Verein Deutsch Drahthaar is the breed’s parent club in Germany. Dogs bred under the VDD breeding regulations are called “Deutsch Drahthaars” to differentiate them from those bred outside the VDD under other registries such as the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association or the American Kennel Club. Beyond that, the German Wirehaired Pointer and the Deutsch Drahthaar are essentially the same.
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12-16-2018, 12:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: near Calgary
Posts: 6,651
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I am only one trainer
but over the years I have had 5 or 6 German Wirehair Pointers here and only 2 DD dogs. Butch included.
My finding is that although generalized GWPs can be very independent and some to the point of being headstrong.
Both DD dogs were very people orientated and looked for direction rather than resisting direction (as in stubborn). Again it is not clear how much of that people orientation and trainablility was trained or if inherited but both DD dogs were night and day easier to work with.
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a hunting we will go!!!!!!
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12-16-2018, 12:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK2750
You spent a lot of time on this dog, did extensive research, joined hunting clubs and sought out mentors to help you along the way.
As with most dogs, you get out what you put in. You obviously have put lots in and are reaping the rewards. I would suspect with this effort and commitment you could have had excellent results from several different breeds, including a German Wirehaired Pointer.
Temperament can vary drastically within a litter and even more so from different breeding. To suggest, from a cross section of one, that a Deutsch Drahthaar is a completely different and better animal than a German Wirehair Pointer is speculation at best. I am sure there are as many (probably more considering American ego) owners of GWPs that have the opposite view with much more experience.
The German Wirehaired Pointer was developed through decades of crossbreeding dogs such as Stichelhaars, Pudelpointers and German Shorthairs. They are strong, athletic, and physically designed to run and swim with exceptional control. They can find and point birds, track wounded game, and retrieve equally well on land or water. Personality-wise, German wirehairs can be intense, but they also are extremely biddable and learn quickly. Rarely are they “soft” dogs, which means novice trainers can make mistakes and the dogs will easily recover and relearn.
The Verein Deutsch Drahthaar is the breed’s parent club in Germany. Dogs bred under the VDD breeding regulations are called “Deutsch Drahthaars” to differentiate them from those bred outside the VDD under other registries such as the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association or the American Kennel Club. Beyond that, the German Wirehaired Pointer and the Deutsch Drahthaar are essentially the same.
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I am not suggesting that the Drahthaar is a superior dog, I am pointing out that the strict breeding standards employed by the VDD system, weeds out the substandard dogs, which reduces the odds of pups with less than desirable traits. There is no such requirement with GWPs.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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12-16-2018, 02:59 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatile
I would disagree. Bring a shorthair or Pointer into your house for a week, then bring an english setter in your house. HUGE difference in manners AND disposition when that door bell rings or someone tries to come in when they shouldnt (especially with the german breeds). The setter is happy to lay down and be quiet, the other 2 pace.
There is even a large difference inside breeds, american GWP is the xanax version of its German counter part.
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You havent owned enough of these dogs to assume that. That may be your experience but not mine. I have lived with 20 gwps at once. Calmest dog I’ve been around are EPs in the house
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12-16-2018, 03:53 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rocky View County AB.
Posts: 3,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TROLLER
Never had a Visla but all the years I ran a water fowl guide service a lot of clients would want to bring their dogs. I stopped the V because my observation was they were a one person dog and more than once had them take a chomp out of another hunter or go after another dog. I know it is mostly the trainer not the dog but that is just my experience. That being said I am a die hard Lab fan.
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My error, I mistook the Visla for what I thought was a Weimriner (sp)
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12-16-2018, 04:33 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto
You havent owned enough of these dogs to assume that. That may be your experience but not mine. I have lived with 20 gwps at once. Calmest dog I’ve been around are EPs in the house
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Out of curiosity, please tell the circumstances that saw you living with 20 GWPs?
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12-16-2018, 06:21 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Calgary
Posts: 227
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Is re-homing the wife an option?
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12-16-2018, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Out of curiosity, please tell the circumstances that saw you living with 20 GWPs?
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Haha. I use to live with Ryan McNally who got me into to pointers and field trialing. I was docking tails, tattooing ears, breaking g out dogs, and learning my way around Tennessee Walkers.
Fun fact, Ryan McNally had the first ever FT CH and NAVDHA UT1 dog in NA. By many many years.
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12-18-2018, 07:29 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK2750
X2 Field trial bloodlines can be too much for the vast majority. They are pushing genetics to make dogs faster, stronger and more aggressive.
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This is true, breeders are looking to make them faster and stronger, no different than race horses. However that last part is flat out wrong. Any sort of aggression in a field trial will get your dog thrown out, no questions asked.
A top field trial competitor makes for a poor house dog is thats what your after, they just cant handle the inside do nothing and really are more happy outside in a kennel. However the dogs that dont make.it as trial dogs male for some of the best hunting dogs and if you look at some of the closer working trial lines such as NSTRA, NBHA, and Gun Dog you wont end up with a wired mess.
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12-18-2018, 07:40 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71
I do agree to do your research on breeders, but to think one needs to purchase their dog from a field trial or tested breeder is crazy.. I bet over 95% of those who own hunting / sporting breeds could never bring an average dog to their full potential.. The remaining 5 % who are experienced handlers may want to pursue the field trial line to satisfy their own personal needs.
To the original poster, good luck on your new addition.
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You should really do some research or get some experience before you say stuff like this. This biggest problem with most breeds today are your at home "breeders" who think they have a good dog and the neighbor down the road has a dog so lets breed them together; this is a huge drag on a breed.
Competition will ensure breeds are always getting better and when breeding for that in mind only a small percentage will make the cut, the rest are well suited for hunting homes.
If you have say 100 puppies, think of them as a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid you have the very top competition and the bottom is hunting dogs. Thats what it is like breeding dogs. At the top its very small, only a small percentage of your 100 puppies will be the quality to be a top competitor, if your lucky 10 will be quality and 1 or 2 will actually do anything. However as you work down the pyramid it gets larger, more of your puppies start to fit in.
As a hunter what you should be looking for is something of that hunting and walking trial dog quality. They wont be crazy, they wont run off on you, and if you put a little time into them (its the same amount of time for any dog) you are going to end up with something you can be proud of and a dog all your buddies are going to want to hunt over.
All the dogs we own in our family and our hunting group are competition dogs or competition bred. We have everything from walking gun dogs, to a big running prairie horseback dog. All are fantastic house dogs and tear it up when we put them on the ground. Its what they are bred to do.
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12-18-2018, 08:43 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto
Haha. I use to live with Ryan McNally who got me into to pointers and field trialing. I was docking tails, tattooing ears, breaking g out dogs, and learning my way around Tennessee Walkers.
Fun fact, Ryan McNally had the first ever FT CH and NAVDHA UT1 dog in NA. By many many years.
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My son and I visited Ryan several times over the years before he moved, very knowledgeable man.
REALLY nice set up, too bad he did not have more room.
Something else to see a whole herd of puppies running around free range with older dogs and the odd beagle!
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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12-18-2018, 08:47 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alberta
Posts: 3,650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatile
You should really do some research or get some experience before you say stuff like this. This biggest problem with most breeds today are your at home "breeders" who think they have a good dog and the neighbor down the road has a dog so lets breed them together; this is a huge drag on a breed.
Competition will ensure breeds are always getting better and when breeding for that in mind only a small percentage will make the cut, the rest are well suited for hunting homes.
If you have say 100 puppies, think of them as a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid you have the very top competition and the bottom is hunting dogs. Thats what it is like breeding dogs. At the top its very small, only a small percentage of your 100 puppies will be the quality to be a top competitor, if your lucky 10 will be quality and 1 or 2 will actually do anything. However as you work down the pyramid it gets larger, more of your puppies start to fit in.
As a hunter what you should be looking for is something of that hunting and walking trial dog quality. They wont be crazy, they wont run off on you, and if you put a little time into them (its the same amount of time for any dog) you are going to end up with something you can be proud of and a dog all your buddies are going to want to hunt over.
All the dogs we own in our family and our hunting group are competition dogs or competition bred. We have everything from walking gun dogs, to a big running prairie horseback dog. All are fantastic house dogs and tear it up when we put them on the ground. Its what they are bred to do.
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Good lord man, read my post.... You sound as if you know what you are doing regarding the gun dogs, the majority do not. As I said originally, do your research and avoid the pit falls of back yard breeding. But, to think everyone needs a competition line is asinine.
By the way, my current GSP I imported from the states with competition lines, the previous two were not. All were great in the field and home. All my buddies wanted to hunt over ALL the GSP's I have had
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12-18-2018, 08:56 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71
Good lord man, read my post.... You sound as if you know what you are doing regarding the gun dogs, the majority do not. As I said originally, do your research and avoid the pit falls of back yard breeding. But, to think everyone needs a competition line is asinine.
By the way, my current GSP I imported from the states with competition lines, the previous two were not. All were great in the field and home. All my buddies wanted to hunt over ALL the GSP's I have had
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Do you still have the one that we met when we visited a few years back?
That was a great dog!
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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