crossbow season?

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Sharpedge

The “Cross-bow Licence” (often erroneously referred to as a handicapped permit) is frequently touted by those who believe one is readily obtainable from Alberta Sustainable Resource Development Fish and Wildlife Division. Apparently, those mistaken contributors also believe that this special licence provision should be enough to address the legitimate needs of anyone afflicted in a demonstrable way, such that conventional bows are beyond their confident physical ability.

Personally I see the Alberta Cross-bow Licence as being condescending, and virtually impossible to obtain. And I have serious doubts that it was ever drawn up with the true intent of accommodating anyone who has the slightest chance of participating in a meaningful way. The qualifying conditions are such that they can be perplexing to one’s family doctor, and should not require an applicant to seek expensive second opinion from a specialist either!

The Important Note to Physician on the application form reads as follows: “Please note that a license or permit of this kind in (sic) not issued for age-related or therapeutic reasons. Rather, these are issued to ameliorate certain conditions for applicants who meet the eligibility requirements set forth in the regulations.”

To be disallowed because of age and ‘age related reasons’ in this day and age is nothing short of defining intolerance. We are not protecting the public by such a denial; as in when an incapable senior has to surrender their motor vehicle operator licence! If hunting is not a sport, it is most definitely a bona fide and health promoting recreation, and one that some groups openly encourage if you meet “their” rules. I believe that any type of exclusive discrimination deserves being brought to the attention of the Canadian Human Rights Commission who might just ‘order a solution’.

But from what my research shows, this special Cross-bow Licence is being infrequently granted. An average of 241 such licenses per year were issued between 2000 and 2006 according to stats provided by the Hunting for Tomorrow Foundation. But the numbers vary from a high of 291 in 2001 to a low of 197 in 2006. The license issuing process is evidently inconsistent, possibly unfair, and apparently very much depends upon the mood or will of the signing F&W Officer. Despite that our Canadian wildlife belongs to all of us, there are some who apparently believe it belongs to them exclusively, and that “they” alone will dictate how it is killed and allocated.

Meanwhile, when an otherwise genuine applicant is refused a Cross-bow Licence that would allow them to stay in the game and play: What is being protected or saved by such a dismissive action?

Respectfully,

Sharpedge

When I get old one day (maybe I'm there already) I'm going to bow out gracefully (I hope). I'm not going to whine and complain that younger, fitter people can run a marathon, draw a bow, climb a mountain or drive a car........when I can't do that anymore. I fully understand that I will age and that I may not be able to do any of these things. There is no intolerance or discrimination towards age here? You are not dis-allowed because of age? What is being said is, a handicap cannot be "he's old and can no longer draw a bow". Age is not part of the equation yet you contrive it to be so. You sound bitter. You believe it a right to hunt with a crossbow based on age? That can be called discrimination (or another social re-engineering scheme meant to appease a special interest group - namely the elderly).

Yes, I hope when the time comes, I bow out gracefully......and reach for my gun

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why should have archery always been on draw??

The same reason that any tags are on draw.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The same reason that any tags are on draw.

You have to get drawn to bowhunt for some seasons/species. Same reasons that any other tags are on draw.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

You have to get drawn to bowhunt for some seasons/species. Same reasons that any other tags are on draw.

BUT, there still are tags/seasons that are general over the counter for archery that are on draw in the same wmu for rifle.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

BUT, there still are tags/seasons that are general over the counter for archery that are on draw in the same wmu for rifle.

The success rate of bowhunting does not warrant a draw for many species and/or WMU's. Where the bowhunting harvest rate dictates a draw there is one.

[tthomas]

"When I get old one day (maybe I'm there already)" I hope you don't get there too soon. One reason the crossbow folks advocate for their use is for the weak. Well I have seen 85 pound kids draw a 40# bow and shoot it well. I wonder if a person is too weak or old to do that you then how can you hunt with a crossbow or even climb a treestand or get yourself out into a ground blind or even walk around.

When you get that old, let me know, I'll be there to help you draw your bow. That will keep the gun in the case for a few more years.

Seniors used to be 65 now they are 50. WOW I became old in a hurry. My how time flies but folks never get over arguing about crossbows.

Now order up one of those primitive muzzleloaders and start shooting critters at 250 yards. Those seasons are going to come under pressure someday as well.

I would agree that if crossbows become archery equipment and those numbers swell then the obvious solution is to take away 30 - 40 % of the rifle tags and allocate them to the archery allocation. Might be a win for the old and feeble.

[209x50]

I would agree that if crossbows become archery equipment and those numbers swell then the obvious solution is to take away 30 - 40 % of the rifle tags and allocate them to the archery allocation. Might be a win for the old and feeble.

Sure if the archers were 40 to 50% of the total hunting applications, if they remain at the 5% then it would be 5%.

[tthomas]

If there are 16k bowhunters and around 100k hunters in total then where do you come up with 5%? With all those guys looking to use a crossbow in the archery season wouldn't it go up?

Or am I missunderstanding something and that you think the total number of bowhunters and crossbow hunters will drop to 5% from 16%.

Help me here, I'm thinking I'm not picking up what you are laying down.

[209x50]

OK then 16% or 9% or what ever the number is. The point is as long as it is fair. That make you happy tthomas?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

I come on this thread once in a while to see what the m***** think on the issue and for the most part there is a great deal of misinformation being bantered about. I have in the past and will again give those that are interested in the FACTS the facts as they pertain to the issue of crossbows in the archery season in Alberta and elsewhere as I know them.
As far as George Wagner's letter to AO, I served on the FCA Cossbow sub committee with George and had quite a bit of coorespondance with him on the ramifications any move to allow crossbows in the archery season will have in Alberta and some other parts of Canada, on what ours and other's positions are and why. George seems to have forgotten some of the things I talked to him about. I explained to George and have to everyone else, that the ABA and me personally are NOT against crossbows for hunting or general shooting -- we do not want them in any archery seasons. They are primitive weapons and can be used now in any general or primtive season here in Alberta. Most of the province's archery organizations in Canada and those in the FCA DO NOT deem crossbows to be archery equipment and do not want them in the FCA. We want the FCA to recognize the will of its members and not just one or two who may have an "agenda". We are not being sneaky at all -- these motions and such to the FCA are presented, discussed and voted on by provincial reps. If anyhting there seems to be some pressure and maneauvering to keep the ABA from being heard at all but we are trying to sort thru all that as we go.
George also forgets that the differences between the crossbow and real bow is that the real bow is drawn AND held by muscular power and is drawn in the presence of game. Youngsters, physically challenged hunters can easily use real bows with todays technologies and adaptations for physical disabilities. If not, they can use the crossbow in the GENERAL season.
Throughout George's letter and in the response from the editor, comments are made about the ABA and in a roundabout way, me, as I have been the president for the past 5 years and been dealing with this issue quite a bit. The words silly and selfish came out loud and clear and I am not sure how to respond to that - is a very unprofessional way to conduct a discussion/debate and usually that type of retoric comes from having a weak position and poor counter argument. I and the ABA will continue to debate this in the proper way.
To clear another thing up that was in AO, it is NOT the ABA's "archery season" -- it is for all of Alberta's present and future bowhunters. It was and is through the efforts of the ABA (since 1956) that what each and every one of you who do bowhunt, get to continue to enjoy that passion. I and the ABA have been working very closely with other sister groups and the govt to help fight the battles to keep doing what we all love to do as far as outdoor recreational and traditional pursuits go.
The reference to "what is clearly archery tackle (crossbows)" is certainly the view of a few and not that of most I have talked to or the membership of the ABA (who elect me and the rest of the executive to do what they want us to do -- if we are not doing what they want, we are not re-elected. Pretty simple).
AND I would like to know who all these others are who do not join because we are "silly and selfish" - maybe they are not getting the facts.

FACTS:
The ABA represents 1150 bowhunters (2009 numbers to date) out of 16500 total licenses sold from across the province. We have one of the highest member to overall bhtr number joining rates of anywhere in North America.
The ABA has made up anywhere from 20-30% of the total membership of the FCA in the last 5 years.
The ABA and it's president are NOT against the use of crossbows.
The ABA and its president are very cognizant of the need to fight battles against hunting in general and we are very involved in that BUT when we are threatened by the introduction of a primitve weapon into our archery seasons and we take on that challenge, we are called silly and selfish. Go figure.
The pressure to allow crossbows into the archery seasons (across North America)has come from manufacturers of crossbows, dealers - create a demand and we will supply it. That includes George's shop in Ontario. The PRO side of the argument is from many others who get free equipment, who get sponsorship/endorsements/advertising in exchange for a positive spin. I always take these things with a grain of salt and try and figure out how/who it benefits when something is said or written.
In those few areas that have allowed them, statistics available show that there is NO real increase in overall hunter numbers but a move with rifle hunters buying crossbows to use in this new season, a new opportunity.
In Alberta bowhunters are watched very closely as to harvest rates by SRD and to a lesser degree, AFGA. When we get to 10% we have seen seasons shortened, draws implemented, draw tags reduced. Has happened for antelope, moose and mule deer. Is not a myth.

Here's some simple math -- Alberta had 16500 in 2008 out of app 110000 overall hunters. That leaves app 93500 who do not use bows. Bowhunters are allowed app 10% of the harvest rate (CONFIRMED in meetings with SRD June 2008) for any particular species/season. In some states where crossbows were allowed, up to 40% of rifle hunters bought crossbows to use in this new season. Lets say that 20% would do that in Alberta. Now we have 18000 new hunters using our archery season - total would be 34500. Immediately we would be watched to see what would happen. In other areas success rate is the same as real bows but it would mean a doubling of harvest and that would mean shorter archery seasons, more draws, less tags in other draws (again CONFIRMED in June 2008 SRD meetings). If any one of you has ever bowhunted antelope it would be devastating on them with a crossbow. lay on your belly with fully cocked crossbow ready (for hours if need be) and just pull the trigger when he comes in. How does defending the allowing of a primitive weapon into an archery season, and the erotion of that activity, be silly and selfish?
The Saskatchewan Bhtrs Assoc were told by their F&W department that if crossbows were allowed and the harvest rate did go up, they would loose their archery seasons and everyone would just be lumped into the general season. Pretty FAIR you think!!
IF hunter numbers escalate if crossbows were ever allowed, and using the numbers from above, the number of hunters using the archery season could jump from 16500 (15% of the overall hunter total) to 34500 (based on a 20% crossover and would now be 31%). In being fair, at 15% of the overall hunter numbers we were allowed a 10% harvest rate SO if we go to 31% of the overall hunter numbers our share of the harvest needs to be adjusted to at least 20%. Where would those days and tag numbers come from? Guess it would have to be taken from the general season but fair is fair. Should any of the general season hunters or groups disagree they must be silly and selfish (using the criteria established by some)!!
Our next ABA banquet and convention will be in the Edmonton area end of March or first part of April - we are just firming up a hotel now. In 2011 it will be in Red Deer April 3/4 and once again Fred Eichler will be our guest.
I invite everyone to attend our AGM meetings and bring your concerns, we will discuss things and you can even get involved as we have various positions up for election each year. If you are interested, the president's position is up in 2011.

Brent Watson
2009 ABA President

Brent, you didn't point out anything new but thanks for laying it on the line efficiently.

All the arguments around all your subjects have been covered and covered.

As far as number of members go, i bet there are more bowhunters on this forum than you have in the aba. If that doesn't give you a general idea of what 'other' bowhunters are thinking by this discussion then not sure what to say?

I am one of those bowhunters, i will be able to pull my bow for another 30+ years i'm sure, this is not specifically an age/broken down/wore out issue to me. Although i fight for it for those reasons i'd also personally like to take people with me, me with my compound and them with my crossbow, its simply to go bowhunting close to home in the longer seasons to introduce people to our sports (with a likely much more effective and humane instrument for the newbie)....the gun season is short and in less favorable/fun climate and much further drive.

But there are more reasons than just my own personal reasons.....the point is my argument is logic driven, pure and simple, no agenda, put the tool where it fits. Monitor harvest and adjust accordingly, of course it won't be 100% win win, it would simply be a 'change' and for the most part it would mostly 'win win' for ALL ALBERTANS!, and if a few extra things must go on draw then BIG DEAL! It happens all the time anyhow, in all seasons etc., so whats the problem?

You have an agenda, pointed out nice and clear, very efficiently, nothing wrong with that....as a regular hunter/bowhunter in this province (not a member of any other organization) this is simply 'my' agenda. I don't even plan to hunt with the tool myself, this is not a selfish thing for me, this is something/opportunity i'd rather see for all of Alberta's hunters to have access too.

We are beating the horse, over and over and over. You cannot convince me and i'll probably never convince you. What next?

[Stinky Coyote]

Hey Brent, since we likely aren't going to get anywhere new....how about a question?

Is there any way the ABA would be able to support the crossbow inclusion?

Any way, like i mean with concession say? Example: not for Antelope seasons, or not in the 100 wmu's? Curious if there can be some sort of progress made on the subject? Like if there seems to be some sort of specific areas or species that you feel will be impacted the most by the crossbow? As it seems obvious to me the prairies and the mule deer/antelope seem to be the biggest concern for this?

Some way to maybe get everyone 'more' on the same team and going forward with the topic/changes?

Just thinking outloud.

Also thinking outloud about how to poll the Alberta hunters, ie; give a complete information packet mailed to all hunters that show all points for and against and then a form where they make a vote and send back to the govt. for consideration?

[Brent Watson]

Stinky Coyote -- the ABA has 1150 members to date in 2009 (kids, adults, beginners, seasoned hunters, guys and gals) so I think from what I have seen on this forum over the years we have significantly MORE members than this forum has for bowhunters. Our membership is a great cross section of people from across the province and I think they give me and the ABA a pretty good idea of what the general consensus is on this issue. 95% of our membership and executive hunt with many other weapons other than the bow - they are not exclusive to just using a bow and arrow. Many are members of the other outdoor organizations.

You suggest conscession -- I and most other bowhunters will say NO to that. Why should there be a conscession -- crossbows are NOT archery equipment and do not belong in archery seasons. They indeed are primitive weapons and I/we have NO argument for there use in the general seasons or primitive seasons. There is NOTHING stopping people from buying a crossbow and hunting with it in Alberta. They just can't use them (for very obvious reasons) in the archery seasons.


I will fight to the last breath to keep our hunting privelages - regardless of the weapon involved. Yet, when bowhunting is being threatened by the attempt to include crossbows in our archery seasons, where bowhunting WILL indeed suffer, those of us who rise up and fight this battle are deemed to be silly and selfish by many who are misinformed, who have their own agendas (sponsorship, endorsement, advertising, sales) and many who have never shot a bow, have never bowhunted, never been to an ABA function or been a member, never took a step back and looked through the fog to see the issue clearly, it makes me rather sad that a passion of mine and many others is being targeted by our own kind.

[Stinky Coyote]

i don't feel as sad as you but more like confused, it almost sounds as if you feel that if crossbows are lumped in with the rest of the bows that the 'drawn and held by muscular' powered bows will become extinct and you will be forced to use a crossbow or something?

you keep saying we can use a crossbow and hunt in general season, you don't have to anymore, we get it, we get the definitional hang up of 'archery season' too, if it happens then i'll be able to keep repeating 'you can still use your compound and traditional bows'

as far as what each tool can do to a critter in the field in a hunting situation they are definitely bows, its simply a bow with automated draw/hold ability, i guess like a semi-auto is to a bolt action firearm...but the differences in how they apply to 'hunting' are too small to augue about yet the gains in opportunity for a boatload of Albertas hunters/future hunters are too big to ignore....to keep a few thing from going draw?

and there lies my confusion and moderate sadness

end of the day you feel like your being targeted or attacked and i see this totally different....like a huge and excellent opportunity and also a sort of 'why didn't we think of that before'.....like bud light lime....how long have we been putting limes in corona's yet it takes this long for someone to build it right into the beer.....doh.....why didn't we think of that sooner?

[ljbb]

Sounds or reads a lot like 209 you might be one of those hunters that are paid to hunt or some sort of sponoership ? Well as a working class hunter i save up time off to hunt. I joined the aba from there past history and there bright future . Ask fish and wildlife to get a crossbow season from oct 1 to the 31. No draws ,no guns or better yet get your self a bow and shoot it. Good Luck and i hope you can get better or a different sponsor.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ljbb

Sounds or reads a lot like 209 you might be one of those hunters that are paid to hunt or some sort of sponoership ? Well as a working class hunter i save up time off to hunt. I joined the aba from there past history and there bright future . Ask fish and wildlife to get a crossbow season from oct 1 to the 31. No draws ,no guns or better yet get your self a bow and shoot it. Good Luck and i hope you can get better or a different sponsor.

Looks like someone is spoon feeding you information... Take the time to read the whole thread and you will see that I used to hunt with a bow but due to injuries can't any more. Sometimes you don't want to swallow everything that gets shoved in your mouth. LOL!

[ljbb]

209 thats what its all about and if you read the whole forum you would have seen i have already, said my peace about cross bows , but do not bring in a organization that is helping not only bow hunters, but every hunter. Sorry for stomping on your toes, it all about the footage correct.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ljbb

209 thats what its all about and if you read the whole forum you would have seen i have already, said my peace about cross bows , but do not bring in a organization that is helping not only bow hunters, but every hunter. Sorry for stomping on your toes, it all about the footage correct.

I'm sorry but first I can understand what you are trying to say, please explain and second I don't think an organization that discriminates against a particular discipline of hunters could in any way be said to be "helping every hunter.".

[Brent Watson]

Richard -- how does the ABA in ANY way "discriminate against a particular discipline of hunters"? Myself and the ABA do not want any primitive weapon (which a crossbow is) in the archery seasons because of all the reasons I gave earlier. Crossbows can be used in any general season and primitive season now. Should be simple to understand. We are trying to protect a passion, a certain way of hunting that is in danger of being lost/watered down by suggesting that crossbows are archery and should be included in archery seasons.
Myself, other members and the ABA in general have worked HARD for many years with other user groups to help protect hunting rights in general. We meet with government people at all levels and 90% of the things on the agenda are general hunting issues. We supported AFGA and it's current president in their/his efforts in getting the all important act passed that makes hunting, fishing and trapping a RIGHT for all Albertans and wrote letters showing that support to government. We are an active member of the Alberta Outdoor Coalition whose mandate is to lobby for ALL users of the outdoors. We actively participate in the Hunting For Tomorrow Stakeholder meetings where changes are suggested to hunting regulations -- again most of a general nature. I sit on the new SRD Wildlife Managment Advisory Group representing the ABA - we are working with senior government to try and open the lines of effective communication with government and all the users to fast track change. We promote the youth thru our awards program, our many 3D archery shoots, seminars and workshops. We are excited that AHEIA has become the agent for the National Archery in The Schools Program and we will do as much as we can to promote this venture. Yet, it seems like all we hear from certain people is that we are "bad", "silly", "selfish" - comments you hear that have no real counter argument or facts to back up a position. Every argument I/we have heard that people have used to suggest crossbows should be allowed, we have been able to counter with FACTS and real information.
It may be easy for those who do not bowhunt, who haven't experienced the "flight of the arrow", the up close and personal experiences with game, with the immense challenges bowhunting offers but equally great rewards when things do go right, etc etc BUT believe me it is worth defending.
Part of all this is to try and educate people to the FACTS and to the ramifications of any introduction of any primitive weapon in archery seasons. I know we have some work ahead of us but we have made great strides thus far, not only here at home in Alberta but on the national scale in the FCA where archers from across the country are standing up for what is right in defining archery - much to the shagrin of people like George.
I didn't know you couldn't use a bow anymore and that is really too bad as I couldn't imagine not being able to use my trusty recurve anymore. I have already prepared the wife for life with a grumpy old man (LOL) if I can't take to the bush with "Jack" my custom recurve anymore. There have been huge advances with innovative devices for all kinds of injuries that still allow people to use archery tackle so let me know and I can get you contact info to see if some of them would work for you. If all else fails, you can still use a crossbow in the general or primitive seasons and there is no shortage of hunting opportunity there. I have used my recurve exclusively for the last five years and have found no lack of critters to chase out of the archery seasons or without a draw. Give me a call sometime and I can see what I can do in getting you back on the horse -- pretty hard to catch me now till December and then it is trapping season, but we can see what happens.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

Richard -- how does the ABA in ANY way "discriminate against a particular discipline of hunters"? Myself and the ABA do not want any primitive weapon (which a crossbow is) in the archery seasons because of all the reasons I gave earlier. Crossbows can be used in any general season and primitive season now. Should be simple to understand. We are trying to protect a passion, a certain way of hunting that is in danger of being lost/watered down by suggesting that crossbows are archery and should be included in archery seasons.
Myself, other members and the ABA in general have worked HARD for many years with other user groups to help protect hunting rights in general. We meet with government people at all levels and 90% of the things on the agenda are general hunting issues. We supported AFGA and it's current president in their/his efforts in getting the all important act passed that makes hunting, fishing and trapping a RIGHT for all Albertans and wrote letters showing that support to government. We are an active member of the Alberta Outdoor Coalition whose mandate is to lobby for ALL users of the outdoors. We actively participate in the Hunting For Tomorrow Stakeholder meetings where changes are suggested to hunting regulations -- again most of a general nature. I sit on the new SRD Wildlife Managment Advisory Group representing the ABA - we are working with senior government to try and open the lines of effective communication with government and all the users to fast track change. We promote the youth thru our awards program, our many 3D archery shoots, seminars and workshops. We are excited that AHEIA has become the agent for the National Archery in The Schools Program and we will do as much as we can to promote this venture. Yet, it seems like all we hear from certain people is that we are "bad", "silly", "selfish" - comments you hear that have no real counter argument or facts to back up a position. Every argument I/we have heard that people have used to suggest crossbows should be allowed, we have been able to counter with FACTS and real information.
It may be easy for those who do not bowhunt, who haven't experienced the "flight of the arrow", the up close and personal experiences with game, with the immense challenges bowhunting offers but equally great rewards when things do go right, etc etc BUT believe me it is worth defending.
Part of all this is to try and educate people to the FACTS and to the ramifications of any introduction of any primitive weapon in archery seasons. I know we have some work ahead of us but we have made great strides thus far, not only here at home in Alberta but on the national scale in the FCA where archers from across the country are standing up for what is right in defining archery - much to the shagrin of people like George.
I didn't know you couldn't use a bow anymore and that is really too bad as I couldn't imagine not being able to use my trusty recurve anymore. I have already prepared the wife for life with a grumpy old man (LOL) if I can't take to the bush with "Jack" my custom recurve anymore. There have been huge advances with innovative devices for all kinds of injuries that still allow people to use archery tackle so let me know and I can get you contact info to see if some of them would work for you. If all else fails, you can still use a crossbow in the general or primitive seasons and there is no shortage of hunting opportunity there. I have used my recurve exclusively for the last five years and have found no lack of critters to chase out of the archery seasons or without a draw. Give me a call sometime and I can see what I can do in getting you back on the horse -- pretty hard to catch me now till December and then it is trapping season, but we can see what happens.

how does the ABA in ANY way "discriminate against a particular discipline of hunters"?

You don't expect or need me to answer that as you already know the answer so I'm not going to bother wasting my time and yours.
I remember the crying, whining and doom sayers wailing in the streets when compound bows came along and the fight it required to get them included in archery season because enlightened people didn't believe that they were archery tackle. Can you imagine such narrow minded people? The world didn't end then nor in any other province or state where the crossbow is allowed in archery and it won;t here. Get ready.

[Brent Watson]

Richard -- it certainly would help if you (and others) could rationally explain why you think it would be such a great thing for everyone if crossbows were allowed in archery seasons - especially here in Alberta where I/we have been informed by high level SRD people about exactly what would happen if they were allowed and when the harvest rates went up. It DEFINATELY will affect bowhunting!! In Saskatchewan, their provincial association has been told that if or when crossbows are allowed in the archery season, and harvest rates go up, everyone will be lumped into a general season. In my mind, that is a loss!! Ontario sells more crossbows than they do real bows -- definately a loss of real bowhunters. Like it or not, most of this debate is triggered and perpetuated by sellers and manufacturers of crossbows (to create a demand they will be more than willing to supply), supported by people who stand to make $$ from this happening. Again, use them in the general or primitive seasons - lots of opportunity!!
And, we are ready. For good debate based on facts and solid information.

[russ]

Originally Posted by 209x50

LOL! It will be a cold and frosty day in he11 before I'll ever feel the need to "man up" to appease the demands of an anonymous internet user name. You ABA types are all class Russ go call someone else a liar...

Well I just spoke to a F&W officer and the explanation I got was that you must have a permanent disability. The guidelines are apparently quite clear and are there to ensure that people don't abuse the system. Apparently an inabilty to pull 90lbs like when you were 20 isn't one of the qualifying factors for eligibility. I have had an impingement in my left shoulder for 9 or 10 years, I dealt with it by lowering my draw weight. It was an epiphany for me. Especially when I realized the animals were still just as dead as before, only I had better control of my equipment.

I think I've hit a nerve here since you refuse to support your claim. Obviously, if you redact (remove) your personal information you have no reason to fear an invasion of your privacy. However, instead of rising to the challenge you have chosen to try & intimidate me and deride an association that's doing what has been mandated by it's membership.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

russ you crack me up, not everyone that can shoot goes to some form of competition, i may not do well with the totally different pressure of a totally different situation but when it comes to me and my target and then me and my quarry afield......oh yeah....its that good......so.....sorry you have trouble with that but such is life, doesn't change the facts...you won't see me at any range or competition which in all likelyhood should keep you and maybe some others happy? you can have your range trophies, i will stick to my type of trophy

Yeah, I have a 'range' of trophies like elk, moose, bear, pronghorn, whitetails, mule deer, coyote, rabbits, gophers, grouse, duck and so. Oh and a few certificates, plaques & buckles to go with them too. I've been far more successful as a bow hunter than I ever will be shooting @ targets.

[6mmhunter]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why should have archery always been on draw??

Why not? Why should everyone else have to apply for draws while bowhunters do not. I do understand that many areas previously open to bowhunting are now on draw but I have to question why archery seasons were ever exempt from the draw. Also if bowhunters do not want crossbows to be used during the archery only season then why not split the seasons. September for bowhunting, October for crossbows, primitive weapons, and November for rifle.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by russ

I've been far more successful as a bow hunter than I ever will be shooting @ targets.

well i'll be.....we Do have something in common

[209x50]

could rationally explain why you think it would be such a great thing for everyone if crossbows were allowed in archery seasons

It would be a longer hunting season with more opportunities, pretty simple really; the same thing vertical bow hunters enjoy.

[J Biggs]

Originally Posted by ljbb

Sounds or reads a lot like 209 you might be one of those hunters that are paid to hunt or some sort of sponoership ? Well as a working class hunter i save up time off to hunt. I joined the aba from there past history and there bright future . Ask fish and wildlife to get a crossbow season from oct 1 to the 31. No draws ,no guns or better yet get your self a bow and shoot it. Good Luck and i hope you can get better or a different sponsor.

Originally Posted by 209x50

Looks like someone is spoon feeding you information... Take the time to read the whole thread and you will see that I used to hunt with a bow but due to injuries can't any more. Sometimes you don't want to swallow everything that gets shoved in your mouth. LOL!

yup spoonfed info directly from your website

"Rich and Sandi Mellon and T.J. Schwanky, hosts of Thompson Center’s Outdoor Quest, would like to welcome their newest sponsor, Excalibur Crossbows, to the series. With the popularity of archery waning across North America, many hunters are looking at crossbows as an exciting new alternative for short-range hunting. Excalibur Crossbows, a Canadian Company, is recognized world wide as the leader in crossbow technology and owners Bill and Kathy Troubridge have traveled the world hunting with and promoting their crossbows. We will be featuring a number of Bill and Kathy’s hunts on the series in 2007, including some incredible footage from their African hunts. We’ll be hunting with the crossbows as well and with the number of deer tags that all of us drew this year, I’m certain they’ll be getting a work out. Check out the exciting line of Excalibur Crossbows"

as always the bigges promoters of xbows either get a free one or some kind of sponsorship or something like this

Since when is the poperlarity of archery waning in north america ???

[Brent Watson]

It would be a longer hunting season with more opportunities, pretty simple really; the same thing vertical bow hunters enjoy.

Sorry Richard but from all the meetings I/ABA have had with the people who make the seasons, determine the draws, the number of tags, etc IF crossbows were ever allowed and with the subsequent increase in harvest rates, there would be shorter seasons with less overall opportunities for an increased number of hunters. That is FACT. As I said earlier, Saskatchewan bhtrs have been told that they would lose their archery season completely if a similar situation occurred there. Not sure how many times I have had to explain this but this is the last time for sure. Is far from simple I am afraid but very, very clear.

NOW, if you can convince the rifle hunters to give up some of their seasons and opportunities so crossbow users can have their own season, that would be an option for sure. If there was an Alberta Crossbow Association that could lobby for that, that would be another option.

OR convince these rifle hunters that if your efforts to have crossbows in an archery season succeed and the overall numbers of hunters in that season increase, then there needs to be an increase in harvest rates for those hunters and it would come from the general seasons and tag allottments.

[J Biggs]

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

NOW, if you can convince the rifle hunters to give up some of their seasons and opportunities so crossbow users can have their own season, that would be an option for sure. If there was an Alberta Crossbow Association that could lobby for that, that would be another option.

OR convince these rifle hunters that if your efforts to have crossbows in an archery season succeed and the overall numbers of hunters in that season increase, then there needs to be an increase in harvest rates for those hunters and it would come from the general seasons and tag allottments.

yup all about fairness this is what the xbow guys say about tthe unfair early season

if guys like 209x50 get the wish they want will he be the guy at the game meetings lobbieng for some more of them rifle draws to go to the early season because of more xbow hunters

well i have been to the game meetings and this would fly like a led baloon

[russ]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

well i'll be.....we Do have something in common

I highly doubt it.

[conservationist]

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

Sorry Richard but from all the meetings I/ABA have had with the people who make the seasons, determine the draws, the number of tags, etc IF crossbows were ever allowed and with the subsequent increase in harvest rates, there would be shorter seasons with less overall opportunities for an increased number of hunters. That is FACT. As I said earlier, Saskatchewan bhtrs have been told that they would lose their archery season completely if a similar situation occurred there. Not sure how many times I have had to explain this but this is the last time for sure. Is far from simple I am afraid but very, very clear.

NOW, if you can convince the rifle hunters to give up some of their seasons and opportunities so crossbow users can have their own season, that would be an option for sure. If there was an Alberta Crossbow Association that could lobby for that, that would be another option.

OR convince these rifle hunters that if your efforts to have crossbows in an archery season succeed and the overall numbers of hunters in that season increase, then there needs to be an increase in harvest rates for those hunters and it would come from the general seasons and tag allottments.

- I think we got it - horizontal bows in archery season may = more harvest = more draws overall which may = less general season tags and/or rifle draws. Makes sense to me and the mimimal reduction in rifle opportunity is something I would gladly trade for some opportunity to once again enjoy an early archery season. Having to draw a tag for some areas/species in whatever season seems fair enough.

And the problem from the ABA perspective is? More draws for archers apparently. At least we can agree the the only valid argument the ABA has against crossbows is the selfish one. All the fallacious arguments around sponsorship, muzzle loaders, OHV's et cetera that the "real bowhunters" throw out there are just desperate noise.

The ABA does do good stuff on on behalf of hunters and wildlife; it's a shame that they can't open thier minds on this issue.

[russ]

How many of people have shoulder injuries and won't reduce their draw weight or go to a physiotherapist? The exercises required for shoulder fitness aren't that onerous and the equipment isn't that expensive. It's piece of blue theraband and 5 simple exercises. I know this because I do them, I had a noticeable improvement in 3 weeks. My motivation is that it's exercise or no archery.

I can't understand why anyone would rather live with a bad shoulder and not do anything about it. Not being able to lift over my shoulder for instance, not being able to carry sheet goods, having little strength in my arm to do simple tasks. Those are all bad things and I chose to take the time to address them. To me, trying to take the easy way out and not exercising is silly and impacts my overall quality of life.