Mule deer hunting in Alberta

[wind drift]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It doesn’t trump sound game management because they aren’t the ones who dictate harvest quotas. The government at can buy them back at any time. Just like they did with commercial fishing in Alberta. The government makes the rules

Wrong. Commercial fishing licences weren’t bought out. The government closed the fishery and stopped issuing licences. The licences expired every year and weren’t ever owned by a commercial fisher. Commercial fishing allocations were only a quota for the lake during a season. My father who had a licence for Buck Lake got a small payment for “inconvenience” or something like that.
Way different than having a game allocation that you own and can sell.

You’re kidding yourself if you think that mule deer outfitters aren’t trying to influence government to not take more assertive CWD control efforts.

The joke is that it won’t matter in the end. CWD will put an end to big, old bucks in a bunch of zones. Outfitters and residents will suffer for a decision made many years ago (game farms), for which they weren’t consulted. We reap what we sow.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by wind drift

Wrong. Commercial fishing licences weren’t bought out. The government closed the fishery and stopped issuing licences. The licences expired every year and weren’t ever owned by a commercial fisher. Commercial fishing allocations were only a quota for the lake during a season. My father who had a licence for Buck Lake got a small payment for “inconvenience” or something like that.
Way different than having a game allocation that you own and can sell.

You’re kidding yourself if you think that mule deer outfitters aren’t trying to influence government to not take more assertive CWD control efforts.

The joke is that it won’t matter in the end. CWD will put an end to big, old bucks in a bunch of zones. Outfitters and residents will suffer for a decision made many years ago (game farms), for which they weren’t consulted. We reap what we sow.

Guy that works for me was in the top 3 for licenses in the province when they shut it down and were bought out
They still have a lawsuit against the government
Totally different topic though

Now your a cwd expert
Lots of big old bucks died from lead poisoning that were also positive for cwd
Cwd seems to be a lot like covid 19, but I’m not an expert 🤷*♂️

Now it’s the game farms fault too

Do you really think someone that is financially tied to a resource, want to see it collapse? It always blame the outfitters. FYI I’m not an outfitter or a guide. But I do know that they put in a lot more time and effort than most resident hunters.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Guy that works for me was in the top 3 for licenses in the province when they shut it down and were bought out
They still have a lawsuit against the government
Totally different topic though

Now your a cwd expert
Lots of big old bucks died from lead poisoning that were also positive for cwd
Cwd seems to be a lot like covid 19, but I’m not an expert 🤷*♂️

Now it’s the game farms fault too

Do you really think someone that is financially tied to a resource, want to see it collapse? It always blame the outfitters. FYI I’m not an outfitter or a guide. But I do know that they put in a lot more time and effort than most resident hunters.

But yet when someone puts in for a draw and doesn't buy the tag you all burn them at the stake for trying to save game!

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by RZR

But yet when someone puts in for a draw and doesn't buy the tag you all burn them at the stake for trying to save game!

Why apply for a hunting draw if your not going to use it?
What are you referring to?
Ewe tags?

[RZR]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Why apply for a hunting draw if your not going to use it?
What are you referring to?
Ewe tags?

No mule deer tags. The government gives out a way too many tags in zones with low numbers of deer, so what's wrong with eating a tag.

[wind drift]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Guy that works for me was in the top 3 for licenses in the province when they shut it down and were bought out
They still have a lawsuit against the government
Totally different topic though

Now your a cwd expert
Lots of big old bucks died from lead poisoning that were also positive for cwd
Cwd seems to be a lot like covid 19, but I’m not an expert 🤷*♂️

Now it’s the game farms fault too

Do you really think someone that is financially tied to a resource, want to see it collapse? It always blame the outfitters. FYI I’m not an outfitter or a guide. But I do know that they put in a lot more time and effort than most resident hunters.

Sigh. I never claimed to be an expert on CWD. It stands to reason that mortality caused by disease, hunting, vehicles, predation, etc. is cumulative. Bucks infected with CWD die before they can become the trophies that most paying clients come here to hunt. If 20 to 30% of bucks in a zone become CWD positive, whereas 20 years ago it wasn’t the case, and other mortality rates stayed generally the same, average buck age and size will be lower with CWD than without.

I agree that it makes no sense for outfitters to want to see the resource decline. The problem is the pressure they feel to keep their operations viable in the short term, and trading off the longer term benefit in the process. I can’t really blame them. The fault is in the system that led them to invest their capital into a high risk commodity.

And yes, game farms are to blame for the CWD problem in North America.

I can’t explain why your buddy says his commercial fishing licences were bought out. They weren’t. He never owned them. Maybe it’s simply how he characterizes the situation. Wouldn’t have mattered if he was the biggest operator or the smallest, like my dad. Same rules for all.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by wind drift

Sigh. I never claimed to be an expert on CWD. It stands to reason that mortality caused by disease, hunting, vehicles, predation, etc. is cumulative. Bucks infected with CWD die before they can become the trophies that most paying clients come here to hunt. If 20 to 30% of bucks in a zone become CWD positive, whereas 20 years ago it wasn’t the case, and other mortality rates stayed generally the same, average buck age and size will be lower with CWD than without.

I agree that it makes no sense for outfitters to want to see the resource decline. The problem is the pressure they feel to keep their operations viable in the short term, and trading off the longer term benefit in the process. I can’t really blame them. The fault is in the system that led them to invest their capital into a high risk commodity.

And yes, game farms are to blame for the CWD problem in North America.

I can’t explain why your buddy says his commercial fishing licences were bought out. They weren’t. He never owned them. Maybe it’s simply how he characterizes the situation. Wouldn’t have mattered if he was the biggest operator or the smallest, like my dad. Same rules for all.

Sigh?
Ok there jt...
Did you count to 20 before you wrote you next sentence too?

Ok so explain why all these mule deer records have been broke in the cwd years?
Deer are still reaching maturity
I’ve shot a few mule deer that were positive for cwd and they were all asymptomatic

They have yet to determine exactly how cwd is spread. Widespread eradication hasn’t slowed it down.

There is no solution for how to deal with cwd

[trigger7mm]

Originally Posted by bucksman

so if terry and mark drury have to wait 6 years to get a tag instead of just coming up every year and shooting one, that wouldn't benefit us?

Having been involved with various outfitters in the past, I can tell you that the provincial economy doesn’t benefit one bit by having non resident aliens purchasing hunting rights every year. All that money goes straight into the outfitters pocket. Yes, they do need fuel, groceries, etc. to make these hunts happen, but so do the resident people who live here and pay taxes. Non residents should have to apply for a draw just like we do if they want to hunt here. The fact that they, in some instances, tie up property for their personal use is nothing less than criminal.

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Having been involved with various outfitters in the past, I can tell you that the provincial economy doesn’t benefit one bit by having non resident aliens purchasing hunting rights every year. All that money goes straight into the outfitters pocket. Yes, they do need fuel, groceries, etc. to make these hunts happen, but so do the resident people who live here and pay taxes. Non residents should have to apply for a draw just like we do if they want to hunt here. The fact that they, in some instances, tie up property for their personal use is nothing less than criminal.

Exactly I've been in the industry for 25 years know lots of Outfitters residents should come first. I just don't get it I've had a few arguments with some of the Outfitters I know.

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[H380]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Having been involved with various outfitters in the past, I can tell you that the provincial economy doesn’t benefit one bit by having non resident aliens purchasing hunting rights every year. All that money goes straight into the outfitters pocket. Yes, they do need fuel, groceries, etc. to make these hunts happen, but so do the resident people who live here and pay taxes. Non residents should have to apply for a draw just like we do if they want to hunt here. The fact that they, in some instances, tie up property for their personal use is nothing less than criminal.

When are we gonna get a " like " button on this forum ...well said

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[wind drift]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Sigh?
Ok there jt...
Did you count to 20 before you wrote you next sentence too?

Ok so explain why all these mule deer records have been broke in the cwd years?
Deer are still reaching maturity
I’ve shot a few mule deer that were positive for cwd and they were all asymptomatic

They have yet to determine exactly how cwd is spread. Widespread eradication hasn’t slowed it down.

There is no solution for how to deal with cwd

Yes, I sighed, because mocking is a common tactic on this forum...or more likely, any online community. If we were having these discussions around a campfire, I’m sure we’d all get along better.

That aside, none of your points change the fact that CWD is a progressive, fatal disease in ungulates that will reduce their life expectancy. Mortality from CWD is cumulative with other mortality factors, and may also increase death from non-CWD causes. The net effect is fewer bucks surviving to get old and big. This is not good for outfitters, or any hunters who seek big mule deer. Unless the effect of CWD is reduced, or we shift our expectations, the best years for mule deer trophy hunting in Alberta are likely behind us.

I maintain that, for the reasons given, outfitters will not behave in the best interests of mule deer management if it means trading-off near term business viability. This is expected, and I don’t fault them for that. I would act the same in their position. The fault is the system which led to game allocations being a tradeable, privately owned commodity. Never should have happened.

Have a pleasant weekend, despite the stormy weather.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by wind drift

Yes, I sighed, because mocking is a common tactic on this forum...or more likely, any online community. If we were having these discussions around a campfire, I’m sure we’d all get along better.

That aside, none of your points change the fact that CWD is a progressive, fatal disease in ungulates that will reduce their life expectancy. Mortality from CWD is cumulative with other mortality factors, and may also increase death from non-CWD causes. The net effect is fewer bucks surviving to get old and big. This is not good for outfitters, or any hunters who seek big mule deer. Unless the effect of CWD is reduced, or we shift our expectations, the best years for mule deer trophy hunting in Alberta are likely behind us.

I maintain that, for the reasons given, outfitters will not behave in the best interests of mule deer management if it means trading-off near term business viability. This is expected, and I don’t fault them for that. I would act the same in their position. The fault is the system which led to game allocations being a tradeable, privately owned commodity. Never should have happened.

Have a pleasant weekend, despite the stormy weather.

So how do you want to control cwd?
No one seems to have slowed it down yet so just curious what your plan would be?

[Deer Hunter]

After 30 years of searching for big cwd mule bucks I have found them to be much harder to find lately. Lots of deer. But there are very few old deer around now.

There isn't much you can do in my opinion. I wouldn't draw in an eastern zone if you are looking to eat the meat. And the antlers aren't what they used to be.

[The Cook]

I hunted 152 last year and ended up putting my mulie doe tag on the Xmas tree. Saw a lot of white tail but not one mulie, buck or doe. Coming up on year 4 for my mulie buck and not sure if I should take it or wait another year.

[dnash17]

Can one transfer their resident points to NR in case he moves out of province?

[KBF]

Originally Posted by mad mountain mike

If the government owned the tags instead of the outfitter and nonresident aliens drew out of a pool set aside for them the government could then react quicker to adjust nonresident alien hunting opportunity when resident hunter opportunity is reduced.

So you would still compete for licenses then because they are still using a license an alberta resident could of had.
And as for goverment reacting, we all seen how thats working out for the sportsman in our country right now.

[RACKER]

Why is it that there are good numbers of trophy mule deers bucks just over the border in Saskatchewan?If cwd was such a devastating disease shouldnt the numbers be way down.If i recall the game farm pandemic started in Sask.The good thing is that they dont have non resident hunting which allows the deer to grow big.

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by The Cook

I hunted 152 last year and ended up putting my mulie doe tag on the Xmas tree. Saw a lot of white tail but not one mulie, buck or doe. Coming up on year 4 for my mulie buck and not sure if I should take it or wait another year.

That’s curious to me, I have hunted 152 a lot in the past most recently 3-4 years ago, always was a ton of mulies. When numbers were a a bit lower you would see the whitetail and mulies separate more into the habitat that they are best suited to and there wasn’t as much crossover. If you don’t mind me asking what sort of terrain were you hunting?

[35 whelen]

SO here is your chance to use outfitters tag this year and next ,Anyone booking any hunts with Alberta outfitters .

[st99]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

SO here is your chance to use outfitters tag this year and next ,Anyone booking any hunts with Alberta outfitters .

Where to find the rules about that? I wander if I can DIY or if I have to hire full service from the outfitter?

[35 whelen]

I believe you have to use outfitter,

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

I believe you have to use outfitter,

Where is the info for this?

[35 whelen]

NOT SURE where to find but i talked to a few outfitters ,call APOS

[KyleSS]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Where is the info for this?

I did speak to AEP and they did confirm that you must sign a hunt contract with an outfitter and use their guide services if buying an allocation.

Essentially, the hunt would be conducted in the exact same fashion as if it were a non resident or non resident alien.

They did confirm that you can not buy the allocation and hunt DIY

[35 whelen]

Just called apos ,YES you have to book through a outfitter.

[trigger7mm]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

Outfitters are tying up land by paid access and there is no law to prevent it.
This is an ongoing problem that is impossible to stop.
You hire a guide, pay him, and he never has to leave his house.
He gives exclusive access to the outfitter for his land and it's all legal.
Greasy but legal.

This very thing is alive and well north of Amisk.

[35 whelen]

I dont imagine those payments will be coming in this year.

[eggo]

https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...00C5F5E9B618D0

[eggo]

see link above

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by bucksman

so if terry and mark drury have to wait 6 years to get a tag instead of just coming up every year and shooting one, that wouldn't benefit us?

No it doesn't benefit the resident hunter at all. The 5 years their not here some other non resident will be. nothing will change other than Drury won't be able to kill a buck every year. Which i think should be the case.