SCI...How They Have Hurt Hunting

[ishootbambi]

I won't say they have done nothing good for our heritage, but in my opinion they have done more to hurt it. They originated as a few wealthy Americans whose goal largely was pattinghemselves on the back for their trophies. Now I have no issue with trophy shows as most of them are, but the majority follow the scoring system set out by B&C. They were the first conservation group and the pioneers in scoring animals for comparison. Their system might not be perfect, but it IS the best available.

The folks at SCI seemed to want to make it easier. They created their own system....based loosely on B&C but with lower minimums to make up for what they were lacking. Rich guys making their own rules when they couldn't succeed at the game already in existence.

Take it a step further...they then started farming animals to grow trophies they couldn't obtain any other way. In my mind it isn't a stretch to think that if their "estate" category for pet shoot farms didn't exist, game farming wouldn't exist....and therefore CWD might not be spreading across the continent like it has including here in Alberta.

Without derailing another thread, some even want to redefine boundaries on what animal lives where. The only reason for it.....make something sound bigger than it is. There are no Shiras moose in Alberta. B&C named them and laid out boundaries years ago.

Originally Posted by KyleSS

It actually depends on what organization you belong to. For some reason Pope & Young / Boone & Crockett only accept moose from the USofA as the Shiras but Safari Club International will accept any moose south of Highway 1 here in Alberta as a Shiras. To my understanding and knowledge there is no genetic difference and geographic location is the only deciding factor.

Now I maybe wrong in all of this as that has been known to happen a time or two.

You're absolutely correct Kyle. B&C was the first conservation group and the guys that created scoring heads. A moose from Wyoming and a moose from the Yukon carry the same DNA. The Yukon bull will be bigger and B&C realized it's not a fair comparison. They got it right. But along came SCI...a bunch of dudes with plenty of money but lacking in hunting skill. Roosevelt warned of men willing to buy but they couldn't acquire through hard hunting. They made their own rules because they couldn't meet the requirements of the real guys. It's the " participants" who couldn't actually win that tried to change the rules. If you're ok with rearranging the rules so you can win then sure...Shiras are in Canada....but me, I golf from the lack tees too. Moose in Canada are Canadians.

The regular few can feel free to call me an idiot...I don't care. This crap makes the hardcore guys shake their heads in disgust. It's like the dudes all over the Internet stretching their arms out for pics, posting ridiculous inflated measurements and the like. If you shot an animal you're proud of them by all means smile big and show him off. Just don't lie about what it is.

[JFB]

They are first for hunters and a voice for our cause but ya high fenced estate hunting I have a huge problem with.

[58thecat]

As in whatever...if you dig hard enough you will find something to complain about...

[old dog]

Guys don't forget sometimes we r our own worst enemy. Let's stick together and truly fight those that want to take our rights away. Yea I don't agree with what some groups strive for but I want to win the war not the battle

[deerguy]

I support SCI but do not acknowledge their scoring system or record books as being legitimate. B&C/P&Y are the real plays in fair chase ethical hunting.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I don't doubt SCI supports hunting and hunters....but like many I do not care for their "record book" nor their support for "hunt" farms.

LC

[Deer Hunter]

whats not to like?
Free donated hunts for the executive?
Who cares about a score regardless of whose it is...

[diamond k]

My issue with SCI is they have done nothing that I can see to support hunting or hunters in Alberta

Sure they fight for the rights to hunt in Virginia or California with my SCI dues but nothing to fight for my rights to hunt in Alberta. I have suggested that they look into the whole lease access issue but apparently that is not in there wheel house.

The record book is what it is and the high fence thing is not my idea of hunting but SCI lives to say how they are protecting the rights of hunters but have not seen it in Alberta

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by diamond k

My issue with SCI is they have done nothing that I can see to support hunting or hunters in Alberta

Sure they fight for the rights to hunt in Virginia or California with my SCI dues but nothing to fight for my rights to hunt in Alberta. I have suggested that they look into the whole lease access issue but apparently that is not in there wheel house.

The record book is what it is and the high fence thing is not my idea of hunting but SCI lives to say how they are protecting the rights of hunters but have not seen it in Alberta

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation wasn't much better, an American organization looking out for Americans.

Grizz

[Kurt505]

Why the big hubbub?

B&C, P&Y, SCI, they are all good for our sport as far as I'm concerned in that they all promote our sport. How Bob scores his bull or Dan scores his deer means nothing to me. I see guys post pictures of their "160" buck" and I can only assume they have their own scoring system because there is no way it would score 160" SCI, let alone B&C, but I'm fine with it, obviously they're proud of their animal and that's all that matters. What some consider a trophy I wouldn't even consider shooting, and I'm sure what I would consider a trophy there are a lot of guys who wouldn't consider shooting, it's just the way it is.

What exactly makes a "Real Hunter"? Does he have to be broke and follow the B&C system? If you asked my Pop he'd tell you the guy that has a calf moose and a 2-1/2yr old dry cow elk hanging in the shop is a Real Hunter. I see guys sit on stand in -20 to -30 from an hour before sun up until an hour after sun down, pass on 160" bucks, only hunting that particular stand if they have the right wind, are capable of making accurate shots in the 500yd to 800yd range, I consider them to be Real Hunters, and guess what.... They even have big bank accounts. If they have a passion to hunt, if their heart races when they see "the one" walk out, if they almost break down into tears when they finally see that animal drop, if they take pride in their butchering with a smile from ear to ear when they hand you a ring of their home made sausage, that's the sign they are a Real Hunter.

So, B&C, P&Y, SCI, as far as being good for our sport, I think they're all winners, as far as their scoring system goes, they all suck. Displacement isn't just good for motor heads, it's the only way to give credit for every bit of antler grown by the animal. But if this were to happen, Texas along with a bunch of other southern states wouldn't stand a chance. My personal photo album is the only trophy book I'll be entering my animals in so I really don't mind if a Shiras moose gets shot in Wyoming or Wainwright, if the guy that shot it is happy with it, who am I to judge?

Rant over.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by deerguy

I support SCI but do not acknowledge their scoring system or record books as being legitimate. B&C/P&Y are the real plays in fair chase ethical hunting.

Agreed

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Why the big hubbub?

B&C, P&Y, SCI, they are all good for our sport as far as I'm concerned in that they all promote our sport. How Bob scores his bull or Dan scores his deer means nothing to me. I see guys post pictures of their "160" buck" and I can only assume they have their own scoring system because there is no way it would score 160" SCI, let alone B&C, but I'm fine with it, obviously they're proud of their animal and that's all that matters. What some consider a trophy I wouldn't even consider shooting, and I'm sure what I would consider a trophy there are a lot of guys who wouldn't consider shooting, it's just the way it is.

What exactly makes a "Real Hunter"? Does he have to be broke and follow the B&C system? If you asked my Pop he'd tell you the guy that has a calf moose and a 2-1/2yr old dry cow elk hanging in the shop is a Real Hunter. I see guys sit on stand in -20 to -30 from an hour before sun up until an hour after sun down, pass on 160" bucks, only hunting that particular stand if they have the right wind, are capable of making accurate shots in the 500yd to 800yd range, I consider them to be Real Hunters, and guess what.... They even have big bank accounts. If they have a passion to hunt, if their heart races when they see "the one" walk out, if they almost break down into tears when they finally see that animal drop, if they take pride in their butchering with a smile from ear to ear when they hand you a ring of their home made sausage, that's the sign they are a Real Hunter.

So, B&C, P&Y, SCI, as far as being good for our sport, I think they're all winners, as far as their scoring system goes, they all suck. Displacement isn't just good for motor heads, it's the only way to give credit for every bit of antler grown by the animal. But if this were to happen, Texas along with a bunch of other southern states wouldn't stand a chance. My personal photo album is the only trophy book I'll be entering my animals in so I really don't mind if a Shiras moose gets shot in Wyoming or Wainwright, if the guy that shot it is happy with it, who am I to judge?

Rant over.

Well Said

[58thecat]

I got my own scoring system, if it is what I want from a doe to a nice buck I take it, sit beside many hunter who shot big deer and small deer from a a scoring perspective but man were they pumped, happy just awesome to see them displaying the respect for the game and the excitement it brings of enjoying the outdoors.

[ram crazy]

[QUOTE=diamond k;3267072]My issue with SCI is they have done nothing that I can see to support hunting or hunters in Alberta

And what has B&C or P&Y done for Alberta?

[58thecat]

[QUOTE=ram crazy;3267258]

Originally Posted by diamond k

My issue with SCI is they have done nothing that I can see to support hunting or hunters in Alberta

And what has B&C or P&C done for Alberta?

Gave people a coffee room sit and Bragg discussion point!

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I got my own scoring system, if it is what I want from a doe to a nice buck I take it, sit beside many hunter who shot big deer and small deer from a a scoring perspective but man were they pumped, happy just awesome to see them displaying the respect for the game and the excitement it brings of enjoying the outdoors.

That's the way it should be. Way more to this sport than bagging the biggest.

Grizz

[ram crazy]

[QUOTE=58thecat;3267260]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Gave people a coffee room sit and Bragg discussion point!

Woo Hoo!!!!

[Bushrat]

I think they should list only the animal, when, where, and the story. Leave the name of the person who killed it out of the book. The record books should reflect the animal not the person. Record books have spawned pay to hunt, buy an animal type, by hook or by crook trophy killing mentality. There has been a whole lot of cheating, poaching and unsportsmanlike activity created by the desire some people have to get their name in the record books.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I think they should list only the animal, when, where, and the story. Leave the name of the person who killed it out of the book. The record books should reflect the animal not the person. Record books have spawned pay to hunt, buy an animal type, by hook or by crook trophy killing mentality. There has been a whole lot of cheating, poaching and unsportsmanlike activity created by the desire some people have to get their name in the record books.

If one reads the original mission statement of the B&C, the record system was in fact set to honour the animal not the hunter.
It seems to have taken a turn for the worse.
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I think they should list only the animal, when, where, and the story. Leave the name of the person who killed it out of the book. The record books should reflect the animal not the person. Record books have spawned pay to hunt, buy an animal type, by hook or by crook trophy killing mentality. There has been a whole lot of cheating, poaching and unsportsmanlike activity created by the desire some people have to get their name in the record books.

Agree. I have shot animals that will qualify for the book...but see no need to enter them. The only "book" my animals are in is the ABA Awards Book, free to enter as a member.

LC

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Agree. I have shot animals that will qualify for the book...but see no need to enter them. The only "book" my animals are in is the ABA Awards Book, free to enter as a member.

LC

So one book is better than the other?
Congrats!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

So one book is better than the other?
Congrats!

Yup....different requirements different rules.

I view the ABA "book" like a local F&G club friendly competition...it really means very little but fun to participate in.

LC

[Deer Hunter]

A competition where we all lose in the end.

[saddleup]

I have always viewed the SCI as nothing more than an old boys club, lead by an elite few.

[deerguy]

It serves a purpose to submit an animal to the book. Shows adequate game management and adequate quality deer Management. Anyless is an injustice to the animal

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

A competition where we all lose in the end.

How so?

LC

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

I won't say they have done nothing good for our heritage, but in my opinion they have done more to hurt it. They originated as a few wealthy Americans whose goal largely was pattinghemselves on the back for their trophies. Now I have no issue with trophy shows as most of them are, but the majority follow the scoring system set out by B&C. They were the first conservation group and the pioneers in scoring animals for comparison. Their system might not be perfect, but it IS the best available.

The folks at SCI seemed to want to make it easier. They created their own system....based loosely on B&C but with lower minimums to make up for what they were lacking. Rich guys making their own rules when they couldn't succeed at the game already in existence.

Take it a step further...they then started farming animals to grow trophies they couldn't obtain any other way. In my mind it isn't a stretch to think that if their "estate" category for pet shoot farms didn't exist, game farming wouldn't exist....and therefore CWD might not be spreading across the continent like it has including here in Alberta.

Without derailing another thread, some even want to redefine boundaries on what animal lives where. The only reason for it.....make something sound bigger than it is. There are no Shiras moose in Alberta. B&C named them and laid out boundaries years ago.





You're absolutely correct Kyle. B&C was the first conservation group and the guys that created scoring heads. A moose from Wyoming and a moose from the Yukon carry the same DNA. The Yukon bull will be bigger and B&C realized it's not a fair comparison. They got it right. But along came SCI...a bunch of dudes with plenty of money but lacking in hunting skill. Roosevelt warned of men willing to buy but they couldn't acquire through hard hunting. They made their own rules because they couldn't meet the requirements of the real guys. It's the " participants" who couldn't actually win that tried to change the rules. If you're ok with rearranging the rules so you can win then sure...Shiras are in Canada....but me, I golf from the lack tees too. Moose in Canada are Canadians.

The regular few can feel free to call me an idiot...I don't care. This crap makes the hardcore guys shake their heads in disgust. It's like the dudes all over the Internet stretching their arms out for pics, posting ridiculous inflated measurements and the like. If you shot an animal you're proud of them by all means smile big and show him off. Just don't lie about what it is.

You can't make this stuff up.....

Or can you?


Bambi, your rant would have been so much better if you didn't go off the deep end of imagination....

SCI's Shiras boundaries are based on accepted Taxonomic research and general scientific community consensus. SCI did not make the Shiras range boundary, scientists did. If anything, B&C and P&Y should be admonished for not following accepted scientific input.

The Shiras range topic and validity of classification as a subspecies is a whole other thread that needs to include discussion on species/subspecies definitions, phenology/morphology and/or/vs genetics. Scientists have yet to agree on such determinants for classification, it is a reach to expect/demand all hunting organizations do so.


Regarding SCI, I have no love nor much respect for the head organization, despite the expanding involvement to keep hunting worldwide an potential opportunity in the future. SCI's policy and support for game farming and penned shooting preserves is a great threat to both WILDLIFE and the hunting of WILDLIFE!

However, on a local scale, I must say that SCI Alberta has evolved over the last few years into a group that IS helping maintain and promote Public hunting. To many at SCI Alberta, I thank you for the work and financial investment you have provided for all Albertans to enjoy hunting Wildlife.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

A competition where we all lose in the end.

EXACTLY!

Records magazines TV egos have brought hunting to a disrespectable place.

Heard of a shameful article in Western Sportsman about a convicted sheep guide. Enjoy the decline!

But we should all stick together.

[SLH]

Hey didn't SCI Calgary support the whole OS thing a fe years ago?

[Donny Bear]

Well I am not rich I don't hunt high fence, but there are countries where estate is the only option left, I know we give to youth pheasant and build docks, support gun ranges and archery in Alberta schools, feed the hungry in the name of hunters and lobby the Alberta government we pay for studies and teach kids to fish and hunt. We support other associations like the Alberta trappers and the list goes on. One other thing I know is the most vocal usually do nothing to help,

I know what I do, I know what people like T.J. And Vanessa do and I know it's donated because of a love and passion for our sport and I know my board, nor me myself have ever been given a hunt.