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  #91  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:06 AM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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agreed. lets look the other way on environmental damage done by other users if it will adversely affect us.
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  #92  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:24 AM
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Oldman Watershed Council. I’ve read a bit on the website. Their goals seem to be leaning towards fixing some of these problems with resolution with land users. Check them out
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  #93  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:32 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
agreed. lets look the other way on environmental damage done by other users if it will adversely affect us.
Yep.

The blatant hypocrisy on this forum is unbelievable at times, and there's not even any objection to having it pointed out or any thought given to it, people are completely OK with being hypocrites.

Unreal.
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  #94  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:42 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
And that is exactly the point. Too many, way too many, use OHVs irresponsibly. Ripping and tearing through an ephemeral wetland because "it's just a mud hole" is a prime example.

IF, and that is the big one, IF there was a different way to curtail the damage the irresponsible drivers make, I would not be as strong in my feelings. However, the only thing I have heard is "more enforcement".

Do you, or anyone else, have a realistic, workable plan that could ensure we do not get the negative impacts that occur now? I'm not being sarcastic, but I have not heard a workable plan from anyone.

Thanks.
The AOHVA has proposed a plan that is exactly what you're asking for.

http://aohva.com/4-point-plan/

They cannot get any traction with a government that doesn't want to hear it because it does NOT fit their agenda. If the goal is to ban OHVs, then the last thing you want to take hold, and *gasp* actually spend some money funding, is a common sense plan for sustainable OHV use.

These ideas aren't new. There are examples all over the USA and in ON/QC of strategies that work, and have amazing results. Many other OHV groups in AB have also tried to work with government to propose and implement plans that are exactly what you're asking for. There is a will within the OHV community to be proactive and clean up the problems. Unfortunately, there is NOTHING they can do without cooperation and buy-in from government.

It's not OHV groups and the vast majority of OHV users that are the issue, it's the complete lack of will on the part of the government to do anything about the issue other than swing the ban hammer.
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  #95  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:51 AM
Cal R. Cal R. is offline
 
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You nailed it Walleydude
Exactly what is happening.
Cal
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  #96  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:55 AM
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Albertadiver Albertadiver is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
The AOHVA has proposed a plan that is exactly what you're asking for.

http://aohva.com/4-point-plan/

They cannot get any traction with a government that doesn't want to hear it because it does NOT fit their agenda. If the goal is to ban OHVs, then the last thing you want to take hold, and *gasp* actually spend some money funding, is a common sense plan for sustainable OHV use.
Thanks for sharing that link.
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  #97  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:02 AM
dmcbride dmcbride is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Cal R. View Post
You nailed it Walleydude
Exactly what is happening.
Cal
X2
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  #98  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:40 AM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Your assumption makes you look like an azz. I’ve always used my own two feet to access the back country. I’ve pack out over a dozen bull elk out of 402 on my back. The only time I will use my ATV is after the ground has frozen solid so I don’t leave a footprint. Anyone here that doubts me can try and tag along next year when I go take pictures of the damage caused by ATV use. It’s would be better to see it in person. So I’m inviting ramcrazy ,newview 01 ,Klondike if either one can actull walk more than a mile away from the vehicle
You got me DP!! and for the record you are just as big of azz for assuming that I use a OHV to hunt. I would probably walk you into the ground
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  #99  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:16 PM
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You got me DP!! and for the record you are just as big of azz for assuming that I use a OHV to hunt. I would probably walk you into the ground
First off I never said or assumed you used an atv for any reason. Bring it on if you think you can out hike me you better pack a big lunch my friend. Name the time and place and we can meet up. Oh by the way be prepared to do 20-25km in a day in the mountains. I can do it day after day. So what is a DP?? You trying to hurl insults??
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  #100  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:35 PM
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Albertadiver Albertadiver is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram crazy View Post
You got me DP!! and for the record you are just as big of azz for assuming that I use a OHV to hunt. I would probably walk you into the ground
Quote:
Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
First off I never said or assumed you used an atv for any reason. Bring it on if you think you can out hike me you better pack a big lunch my friend. Name the time and place and we can meet up. Oh by the way be prepared to do 20-25km in a day in the mountains. I can do it day after day. So what is a DP?? You trying to hurl insults??
Both of you sound like spoiled children, regardless of which side of the debate you're on.

Wow....
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  #101  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:37 PM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Albertadiver View Post
Both of you sound like spoiled children, regardless of which side of the debate you're on.

Wow....
My dad's tougher than your dad!

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  #102  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:42 PM
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Albertadiver Albertadiver is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
My dad's tougher than your dad!

I was actually googling a meme for that exact phrase, but decided against it.


I think this issue is important, but if people can't demonstrate their position without going after individuals, it just makes us all look like goofs.
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  #103  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:26 PM
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sns2 sns2 is offline
 
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Some people on this thread need to grow up and act like adults. This is an important topic, so don't screw this thread up any further.
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  #104  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:49 PM
Wrongside Wrongside is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Albertadiver View Post
As the OP, I hope it doesn't come across like this for myself. I'd like to see enforcement of the existing conservation laws as much as possible, and for damaging influences to be better managed, whether that be industry, OHV, Feral horses, etc.

I just hate the close it down and turn it into a park reaction.
Yep, just yep.
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  #105  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:01 PM
canuck canuck is offline
 
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All dick swinging aside, here is my input;

The eastern slopes of this province are a small area.
Excessive backcountry use (and abuse) is becoming more common throughout these eastern slopes by all groups - ever since the country was opened up by the early resource exploration
No matter your mode of travel, we all love to get out there and in the last few years there have been that more many of us doing just that - the results are starting to become obvious.
I've been around long enough to remember driving a 4x4 (****, even a volkswagon bug with chains) all over the eastern slopes, into many areas that are protected today - rarely encountered another soul.
We didn't consciously do damage to the backcountry back then, but we did damage it - no argument. The difference is the amount of damage being done - much more these days with the amount of $$ folks make and recreate with and, the fact that OHVs have been invented/modernized/affordable, and the undeniable fact that there are just many more people out there these days.

Now, to refute some statements made previously, and to be clear, I despise this current provincial gov't, they are actually working on this issue (unlike previous administrations) - my daughter has been working all year (between forest fires!) mapping off road trails throughout the area north of the crowsnest to K country - the end game is to determine the user groups, their footprints, and the suitability of OHV (and other) use within certain areas of this part of Alberta.
These studies are being done throughout the eastern slopes and will be used to determine areas that need to be managed more closely to mitigate environmental damage due to overuse - BY ALL USERS

By god, I hope the NDP don't survive the next election, but I do hope something comes of the work being done to save the eastern slopes from further abuse by any user group because the slopes do need saving.

Last edited by canuck; 12-08-2017 at 11:18 PM.
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  #106  
Old 12-09-2017, 01:33 AM
normstad normstad is offline
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Originally Posted by canuck View Post
All dick swinging aside, here is my input;

The eastern slopes of this province are a small area.
Excessive backcountry use (and abuse) is becoming more common throughout these eastern slopes by all groups - ever since the country was opened up by the early resource exploration
No matter your mode of travel, we all love to get out there and in the last few years there have been that more many of us doing just that - the results are starting to become obvious.
I've been around long enough to remember driving a 4x4 (****, even a volkswagon bug with chains) all over the eastern slopes, into many areas that are protected today - rarely encountered another soul.
We didn't consciously do damage to the backcountry back then, but we did damage it - no argument. The difference is the amount of damage being done - much more these days with the amount of $$ folks make and recreate with and, the fact that OHVs have been invented/modernized/affordable, and the undeniable fact that there are just many more people out there these days.

Now, to refute some statements made previously, and to be clear, I despise this current provincial gov't, they are actually working on this issue (unlike previous administrations) - my daughter has been working all year (between forest fires!) mapping off road trails throughout the area north of the crowsnest to K country - the end game is to determine the user groups, their footprints, and the suitability of OHV (and other) use within certain areas of this part of Alberta.
These studies are being done throughout the eastern slopes and will be used to determine areas that need to be managed more closely to mitigate environmental damage due to overuse - BY ALL USERS

By god, I hope the NDP don't survive the next election, but I do hope something comes of the work being done to save the eastern slopes from further abuse by any user group because the slopes do need saving.
Best post of the thread so far. Well said.
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  #107  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:48 AM
Taco Taco is offline
 
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Originally Posted by canuck View Post
All dick swinging aside, here is my input;

The eastern slopes of this province are a small area.
Excessive backcountry use (and abuse) is becoming more common throughout these eastern slopes by all groups - ever since the country was opened up by the early resource exploration
No matter your mode of travel, we all love to get out there and in the last few years there have been that more many of us doing just that - the results are starting to become obvious.
I've been around long enough to remember driving a 4x4 (****, even a volkswagon bug with chains) all over the eastern slopes, into many areas that are protected today - rarely encountered another soul.
We didn't consciously do damage to the backcountry back then, but we did damage it - no argument. The difference is the amount of damage being done - much more these days with the amount of $$ folks make and recreate with and, the fact that OHVs have been invented/modernized/affordable, and the undeniable fact that there are just many more people out there these days.

Now, to refute some statements made previously, and to be clear, I despise this current provincial gov't, they are actually working on this issue (unlike previous administrations) - my daughter has been working all year (between forest fires!) mapping off road trails throughout the area north of the crowsnest to K country - the end game is to determine the user groups, their footprints, and the suitability of OHV (and other) use within certain areas of this part of Alberta.
These studies are being done throughout the eastern slopes and will be used to determine areas that need to be managed more closely to mitigate environmental damage due to overuse - BY ALL USERS

By god, I hope the NDP don't survive the next election, but I do hope something comes of the work being done to save the eastern slopes from further abuse by any user group because the slopes do need saving.
Excellent! Thank you.
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  #108  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:33 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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I find it really disappointing that when the exact info and approach people are asking for is presented to them, there isn't even an acknowledgment or a comment on it, let alone any actual discussion.

That indicates to me that these questions are not sincere, they're just talk, deflection, and in many cases with the government and the so called "working groups", they're just outright lies. People aren't actually approaching the issue with an open mind at all, the ending is predetermined. I find that incredibly frustrating, and I know the OHV groups do as well.
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  #109  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:27 PM
normstad normstad is offline
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
I find it really disappointing that when the exact info and approach people are asking for is presented to them, there isn't even an acknowledgment or a comment on it, let alone any actual discussion.

That indicates to me that these questions are not sincere, they're just talk, deflection, and in many cases with the government and the so called "working groups", they're just outright lies. People aren't actually approaching the issue with an open mind at all, the ending is predetermined. I find that incredibly frustrating, and I know the OHV groups do as well.
Are you referring to the 4 points that was linked to?

I actually didn't see that as a real solution. I saw some elements in some of the points, but know, I did not see a pathway to ....

Working with the Government of Alberta, Land Use Framework staff and AOHVA experienced members in designing and developing trails and trail heads that are sustainable and environmentally-sound and repairing damaged trails.


What does AOHVA experienced members mean? I see this as a good start, just not sure what the details are.
Dedicating 100% of a new OHV User Fee to tackling important issues like habitat protection and proper trail construction and maintenance in partnership with AOHVA, Clubs and volunteers under an accountable, transparent AOHVA Service Delivery Structure.


This point is crying out for details on implementation. Is it proposing a DAO? Would the User Fee be area specific? Is there a suggestion that ALL licensed OHV users would have to contribute? This point really says little, and no details are on the website.
Ensuring the Government of Alberta provides law enforcement agencies with the tools and mandate to fully enforce the law.


The mandate is already there. What tools are proposed? What does this mean?
Building a better environmental and trail experience. Alberta can lead the way in OHV trail development by putting the onus on organizations like AOHVA and its like-minded partners to be responsible for environmental stewardship as a means of eliminating improper use of the back country.


This is not an action point at all, but a mission/values statement. In other words, at best this is a 3 point plan.

So, serious discussion on this is welcome.
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  #110  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:10 PM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
Are you referring to the 4 points that was linked to?

I actually didn't see that as a real solution. I saw some elements in some of the points, but know, I did not see a pathway to ....

Working with the Government of Alberta, Land Use Framework staff and AOHVA experienced members in designing and developing trails and trail heads that are sustainable and environmentally-sound and repairing damaged trails.


What does AOHVA experienced members mean? I see this as a good start, just not sure what the details are.
Dedicating 100% of a new OHV User Fee to tackling important issues like habitat protection and proper trail construction and maintenance in partnership with AOHVA, Clubs and volunteers under an accountable, transparent AOHVA Service Delivery Structure.


This point is crying out for details on implementation. Is it proposing a DAO? Would the User Fee be area specific? Is there a suggestion that ALL licensed OHV users would have to contribute? This point really says little, and no details are on the website.
Ensuring the Government of Alberta provides law enforcement agencies with the tools and mandate to fully enforce the law.


The mandate is already there. What tools are proposed? What does this mean?
Building a better environmental and trail experience. Alberta can lead the way in OHV trail development by putting the onus on organizations like AOHVA and its like-minded partners to be responsible for environmental stewardship as a means of eliminating improper use of the back country.


This is not an action point at all, but a mission/values statement. In other words, at best this is a 3 point plan.

So, serious discussion on this is welcome.
Your point would be legitimate if the government actually took what OHV groups recommend seriously. I know someone on the CNP quad squad who said they didn't listen to a word they said, any communication was simply to say they communicated. The NDP are interested in one thing, eliminating OHV use from Y 2 Y.
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  #111  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:24 PM
Map Maker Map Maker is offline
 
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. The NDP are interested in one thing, eliminating OHV use from Y 2 Y.
no.
They are just pleasing the majority of their constituents.
And that is just to increase recreation in the mountain for everyone.

The only reason no changes happened under PC rule is because they didnt want to spend any money on outdoor recreation.

OHV users that ride in the mountains make up what percentage of the voters?
Maybe 20%?

Your outgunned.

if you cant beat em, join em. The AOHVA club is doing the right thing, but they have to get all OHV users behind them. Try to get involved in the planning process.

I really dont think this government is out to get anyone. They just want to spend money to make up for the lack of spending in all the years. If its going to happen, might as well try to get it spent the best way possible.
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  #112  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:30 PM
Taco Taco is offline
 
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The NDP are interested in one thing, eliminating OHV use from Y 2 Y.
Some verifiable proof would be nice,
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  #113  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:05 PM
RZR RZR is offline
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Didn't Shannon Phillips write a book about Y2Y or something? Doesn't she want to put up stores and lodging in the castle area. Wasn't there a survey put out? Doesn't she want to put a drinking water line out to the ski hill and run the line right through a ecological reserve?
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  #114  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:59 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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Some verifiable proof would be nice,
Don't you think the legislation being implemented is enough?
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  #115  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:38 AM
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No I don't, verifiable proofs please.
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  #116  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:27 AM
normstad normstad is offline
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Originally Posted by Map Maker View Post
no.
They are just pleasing the majority of their constituents.
And that is just to increase recreation in the mountain for everyone.

The only reason no changes happened under PC rule is because they didnt want to spend any money on outdoor recreation.

OHV users that ride in the mountains make up what percentage of the voters?
Maybe 20%?

Your outgunned.

if you cant beat em, join em. The AOHVA club is doing the right thing, but they have to get all OHV users behind them. Try to get involved in the planning process.

I really dont think this government is out to get anyone. They just want to spend money to make up for the lack of spending in all the years. If its going to happen, might as well try to get it spent the best way possible.
I would be surprised if it's 5%. Only 6% of all Albertan's engage in motorized recreation, and I doubt if all of that is in the foothills.

This is an interesting article by Lorne Fitch as a guest writer for Don Meredith.

https://donmeredith.wordpress.com/20...y-vehicle-use/
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  #117  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:01 AM
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I would be surprised if it's 5%. Only 6% of all Albertan's engage in motorized recreation, and I doubt if all of that is in the foothills.

This is an interesting article by Lorne Fitch as a guest writer for Don Meredith.

https://donmeredith.wordpress.com/20...y-vehicle-use/
Prime examples of the disconnect between urban and rural voters. One's needs / wants do not reflect the others.
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  #118  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:21 AM
normstad normstad is offline
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Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
Prime examples of the disconnect between urban and rural voters. One's needs / wants do not reflect the others.
What part of the article showed a disconnect? Seriously, what part?
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  #119  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:30 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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What part of the article showed a disconnect? Seriously, what part?
If you can’t understand the point by now, I’m wasting my time.
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  #120  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RZR View Post
Didn't Shannon Phillips write a book about Y2Y or something? Doesn't she want to put up stores and lodging in the castle area. Wasn't there a survey put out? Doesn't she want to put a drinking water line out to the ski hill and run the line right through a ecological reserve?
Yup!
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