Possible lead-free ammunition requirement for upland hunting

[waldedw]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

I’ve been shooting steel shot thru full chock barrels for years without any problems. What does lubricity have to do with it.

Well you should be running out and buying a lottery ticket, I have seen dozens of barrels with bulges or splits from guys running steel loads through fixed full choke barrels, it's just not a smart thing to do............... and if anyone tells you it's OK well that's just plain bad advise from someone that doesn't know jack about shotgun barrels or steel shot or fixed full chokes. IMHO

[calgarychef]

I think this is a move by the anti-gun/anti-hunting lobby to get another segment of the sport shut down. Bit by bit, law by law.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I think this is a move by the anti-gun/anti-hunting lobby to get another segment of the sport shut down. Bit by bit, law by law.

Anti firearm/anti hunting lobby, make hunting/shooting less attractive, and more expensive, hoping that some people decide to quit.

[osterous]

That was the point that Mr Helsdon was making when he wrote the article.
Roger

[Huntsman]

What about 22LR ?
Haven’t heard of lead free rimfire yet.
This is my go to for chickens and wabbits.

[bessiedog]

I used to shoot steel out of a 1970s 30 inch 2 3/4” shotty

Till it bridged and the pressure blew the barrel up.

I still don’t know how I didn’t lose my face....,, tinnitus
Partially deaf in one ear.

Go ahead.... shoot away.

I got pics for proof and I’ve posted it here.

[32-40win]

People in Great Britain are very worried about this issue at the moment, one of the "sporting" orgs came out in support of phasing out lead shot altogether, and the gov't has now jumped on it and mandated it within 5 yrs, even though the ammo mfgrs have stated they can't change over that fast. There are plenty of pre WW2 guns around still, that are not rated for steel shot pressures, they could be run at lower pressures, but, wouldn't be much use for hunting. CIP only just upped the proof pressure tests for shotguns in Europe for high speed steel in the last few yrs. Shotshells in Europe are mandated to have the pressure rating warning on the boxes now.

[Hunter guy]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

My go to shotgun is a early 1970’s Remington 870 wing master with 30’’ goose barrel and 2 3/4 shells.

I shoot steel out my old bolt action shotgun all the time never had a issue with it worst that can happen it flares alittle not a huge deal

[Diesel_wiesel]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

You don't have to shoot steel, just hand load Bismuth or ITX for it like I do for my vintage guns!
Cat

that's ok if you can afford $230 for a 7 pound bottle of it
at $2.90 a shell it gets to be a cost most budget hunters aren't allowed to enjoy

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

People in Great Britain are very worried about this issue at the moment, one of the "sporting" orgs came out in support of phasing out lead shot altogether, and the gov't has now jumped on it and mandated it within 5 yrs, even though the ammo mfgrs have stated they can't change over that fast. There are plenty of pre WW2 guns around still, that are not rated for steel shot pressures, they could be run at lower pressures, but, wouldn't be much use for hunting. CIP only just upped the proof pressure tests for shotguns in Europe for high speed steel in the last few yrs. Shotshells in Europe are mandated to have the pressure rating warning on the boxes now.

That’s ridiculous, the amount of lead in that country is mind boggling.
Lead pipes for eater, lead flashing on all the roofs, it’s just absolutely everywhere.

[Pioneer2]

To get people to abandon hunting because of incompatible ammo then they won't need their guns.Diddly squat to do with saving the environment.

[bakerman]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

To get people to abandon hunting because of incompatible ammo then they won't need their guns.Diddly squat to do with saving the environment.

x2 You are absolutely right.

[TrapperMike]

Finally able to talk to someone at Remington Arms. The guy I talked to years ago has retired so talked their top gunsmith (Larry). He was able to tell me unofficially that the majority of their shot guns would handle both lead and steel shot. My gun being a 870 being built in the mid 70’s and being one of the most sold guns was built extra tough and should not having any problems with steel shot. Officially Larry told me for logistic reasons he has to tell me that there could be problems with using steel shot in a gun made to shoot lead. He went on to explain how if was to use steel that I should have it checked by a gunsmith and possibly have it fitted with a choke system. He told me that they tell this to all who make this inquiry on this subject and this was a prepared statement. He pointed out that they use to make the first claim to customers but now to protect themselves this is their official stand. I mentioned how everyone was talking about bulged and split barrels, and he remarked how he had seen tons of both in barrels that had only been used with lead shot. As for “Cat’s” comment, you don’t even know me and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Finally able to talk to someone at Remington Arms. The guy I talked to years ago has retired so talked their top gunsmith (Larry). He was able to tell me unofficially that the majority of their shot guns would handle both lead and steel shot. My gun being a 870 being built in the mid 70’s and being one of the most sold guns was built extra tough and should not having any problems with steel shot. Officially Larry told me for logistic reasons he has to tell me that there could be problems with using steel shot in a gun made to shoot lead. He went on to explain how if was to use steel that I should have it checked by a gunsmith and possibly have it fitted with a choke system. He told me that they tell this to all who make this inquiry on this subject and this was a prepared statement. He pointed out that they use to make the first claim to customers but now to protect themselves this is their official stand. I mentioned how everyone was talking about bulged and split barrels, and he remarked how he had seen tons of both in barrels that had only been used with lead shot. As for “Cat’s” comment, you don’t even know me and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar.

I re-read the thread...no one called you a liar and your little diatribe is pretty uncalled for.

Cat is probably the most experienced shooter that you could meet in Alberta. Sometimes it makes sense to listen rather than talk.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Finally able to talk to someone at Remington Arms. The guy I talked to years ago has retired so talked their top gunsmith (Larry). He was able to tell me unofficially that the majority of their shot guns would handle both lead and steel shot. My gun being a 870 being built in the mid 70’s and being one of the most sold guns was built extra tough and should not having any problems with steel shot. Officially Larry told me for logistic reasons he has to tell me that there could be problems with using steel shot in a gun made to shoot lead. He went on to explain how if was to use steel that I should have it checked by a gunsmith and possibly have it fitted with a choke system. He told me that they tell this to all who make this inquiry on this subject and this was a prepared statement. He pointed out that they use to make the first claim to customers but now to protect themselves this is their official stand. I mentioned how everyone was talking about bulged and split barrels, and he remarked how he had seen tons of both in barrels that had only been used with lead shot. As for “Cat’s” comment, you don’t even know me and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar.

Yes there are buldged and split barrels in guns used only with lead, that does happen when guns are fired with barrel obstructions, which happens more than it should. However, when steel is used in barrels with chokes that are too tight, or in guns with forcing cones designed for lead, this often happens without a barrel obstruction. You obviously are unable to comprehend why using steel shot causes issues in these shotguns and then to make it worse, you are incapable of understanding what the gunsmith from Remington was actually telling you. Go ahead and shoot whatever you want in your own shotguns, but don't try to convince other people that what you are doing is a smart practise.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Finally able to talk to someone at Remington Arms. The guy I talked to years ago has retired so talked their top gunsmith (Larry). He was able to tell me unofficially that the majority of their shot guns would handle both lead and steel shot. My gun being a 870 being built in the mid 70’s and being one of the most sold guns was built extra tough and should not having any problems with steel shot. Officially Larry told me for logistic reasons he has to tell me that there could be problems with using steel shot in a gun made to shoot lead. He went on to explain how if was to use steel that I should have it checked by a gunsmith and possibly have it fitted with a choke system. He told me that they tell this to all who make this inquiry on this subject and this was a prepared statement. He pointed out that they use to make the first claim to customers but now to protect themselves this is their official stand. I mentioned how everyone was talking about bulged and split barrels, and he remarked how he had seen tons of both in barrels that had only been used with lead shot. As for “Cat’s” comment, you don’t even know me and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar.

When steel became law many years ago for waterfowl, every avid duck hunter tried every method imaginable to get ducks without buying a new gun. We have patterned steel though every type of choking system imaginable and I can assure you that Larry is an idiot. Full choke guns pattern steel so poorly that is is unethical to use them on anything living. Surprisingly the most common pattern is like a large donut. Apart from that there is blotches of pellets in some areas and other areas completely void of pellets.

As the size of the pellets increase the worse the patterns get. Larger pellets also increase the risk of barrel damage. A light modified will sometimes pattern 4s but Imp Cyl or even Cyl is a better choice.

As for the plastic wads protecting the barrel, this too is a myth. Something as soft as snow can ruin a barrel as it is the pressure that causes the bulging. Steel will not compress like lead and causes excessive pressures, again, especially in larger shot sizes.

The biggest problem with steel however has always been its inability to carry force any distance. It slows down quickly due to a lack of density. Modern plastic wads are designed to carry the payload much like a slug and release the pellets sometimes many yards in front of the shooter. The pellets do not start the massive slowdown as quick so they are lethal much farther out. Excessive choking strips the wad prematurely and defeats the technology. In fact it has been determined by many that back boring is better yet in not disturbing the wad but that is another topic.

If Larry at Remington doesn't understand the very basics of shotgun barrels and patterning steel shot he should also retire and allow someone in there that does.

[TrapperMike]

To Calgarychef his exact words

“I doubt very much you even spoke to anybody at Remington now”

[ward]

Originally Posted by MK2750

When steel became law many years ago for waterfowl, every avid duck hunter tried every method imaginable to get ducks without buying a new gun. We have patterned steel though every type of choking system imaginable and I can assure you that Larry is an idiot. Full choke guns pattern steel so poorly that is is unethical to use them on anything living. Surprisingly the most common pattern is like a large donut. Apart from that there is blotches of pellets in some areas and other areas completely void of pellets.

As the size of the pellets increase the worse the patterns get. Larger pellets also increase the risk of barrel damage. A light modified will sometimes pattern 4s but Imp Cyl or even Cyl is a better choice.

As for the plastic wads protecting the barrel, this too is a myth. Something as soft as snow can ruin a barrel as it is the pressure that causes the bulging. Steel will not compress like lead and causes excessive pressures, again, especially in larger shot sizes.

The biggest problem with steel however has always been its inability to carry force any distance. It slows down quickly due to a lack of density. Modern plastic wads are designed to carry the payload much like a slug and release the pellets sometimes many yards in front of the shooter. The pellets do not start the massive slowdown as quick so they are lethal much farther out. Excessive choking strips the wad prematurely and defeats the technology. In fact it has been determined by many that back boring is better yet in not disturbing the wad but that is another topic.

If Larry at Remington doesn't understand the very basics of shotgun barrels and patterning steel shot he should also retire and allow someone in there that does.

I have seen full choke guns pattern steel as large as 2’s very tight.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ward

I have seen full choke guns pattern steel as large as 2’s very tight.

I have as well, but the chokes were usualy rated Full/steel, or they were modern waterfowl chokes designed to produce a full pattern with steel. If you use lead in these chokes, they produce patterns similar to the old fixed mod chokes. Many compnies producing waterfowl chokes avoid the mod/full designations and use close/mid range/ long range or similar designations to avoid confusion. When testing chokes rated for lead, I found that LM was about as tight as I could go, before the patterns started to become more patchy and uneven. Mod threw some tight patterns, they just weren't as even as with more open chokes.