Possible lead-free ammunition requirement for upland hunting

[osterous]

There is an interesting article in the current issue of "Covers" (Ruffed Grouse Society magazine) in which the author (Jeff Helsdon) points out that, while the government floated and then dropped the idea a couple of years ago, it may well be brought back. He also took a brief look at the questionable science behind such a move and the effects (mostly negative) that such a move would have on upland hunting.
My take on his article is that if you want to go lead-free, go for it. But don't legislate it.
Sorry, I am not tech-literate so I can't download the link.
Roger

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by osterous

There is an interesting article in the current issue of "Covers" (Ruffed Grouse Society magazine) in which the author (Jeff Helsdon) points out that, while the government floated and then dropped the idea a couple of years ago, it may well be brought back. He also took a brief look at the questionable science behind such a move and the effects (mostly negative) that such a move would have on upland hunting.
My take on his article is that if you want to go lead-free, go for it. But don't legislate it.
Sorry, I am not tech-literate so I can't download the link.
Roger

Using my grand mother’s 16 gauge is such a thrill for me. Sadly I can’t shoot steel in it.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Interesting... But isn't that magazine primarily from the States and Ontario? Latest magazine they have posted is from 2018...

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Using my grand mother’s 16 gauge is such a thrill for me. Sadly I can’t shoot steel in it.

You don't have to shoot steel, just hand load Bismuth or ITX for it like I do for my vintage guns!
Cat

[TrapperMike]

Why can’t you shoot steel?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Why can’t you shoot steel?

Damascus and/ or laminated barrels is the biggest reason one cannot shoot steel in a vintage gun, that and the type of steel/iron used .
The old guns cannot handle the pressure generated with modern loads .
Cat

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

You don't have to shoot steel, just hand load Bismuth or ITX for it like I do for my vintage guns!
Cat

For the diehard's it's no big deal. Average joe might as well quit if that becomes the law. I'll bet less that 10% handload??

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

For the diehard's it's no big deal. Average joe might as well quit if that becomes the law. I'll bet less that 10% handload??

It's not that difficult to do with a minimum of tools, one does not actually need a press. the biggest issue for a guy starting out is finding someone to mentor them
Cat

[TrapperMike]

An older gun that would be unsafe to use with modern loads would be unsafe weather it was lead or steel. If your gun can safely use modern lead loads it would also be safe for modern steel loads.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It's not that difficult to do with a minimum of tools, one does not actually need a press. the biggest issue for a guy starting out is finding someone to mentor them
Cat

I don't disagree but I already tie flies, build rods, load center fire, shoot black powder, skeet, shoot archery and build my own arrows......I don't have time or room for anymore hobbies lol. If they were to ban lead I would just go to steel. Maybe get a sidexside 20 that could shoot it.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

An older gun that would be unsafe to use with modern loads would be unsafe weather it was lead or steel. If your gun can safely use modern lead loads it would also be safe for modern steel loads.

Not entirely. Lots of 50 year old guns are perfectly safe with modern lead loads. They would require some alterations to shoot steel. If your talking about really old guns then I would agree.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

An older gun that would be unsafe to use with modern loads would be unsafe weather it was lead or steel. If your gun can safely use modern lead loads it would also be safe for modern steel loads.

Not true at all!
These are just a few of my guns that guns never were designed for "modern ammo" as you call it, but they safely shoot birds every year!
Cat


https://i.imgur.com/qgKzs5h.jpg

[jungleboy]

That would suck. I stocked up on 28ga and 410 last yr it would be a shame to just leave it on the shelf.

[TrapperMike]

All I said is if it’s a gun that can safely shoot lead shot then it can shoot steel shot.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

All I said is if it’s a gun that can safely shoot lead shot then it can shoot steel shot.

And that isn't always true. It also depends on the chokes and the forcing cones.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

All I said is if it’s a gun that can safely shoot lead shot then it can shoot steel shot.

All of the guns in my pics with exception of the Pedersoli can shoot lead but cannot shoot steel shot. Without Bismuth or ITX they would not be hunting anything let alone waterfowl if I lived in A place where where steel only needed to be used .
Cat

[TrapperMike]

Why can you not use steel

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Why can you not use steel

Post number 6 explains it as far as older guns go .
Steel shot is loaded to much higher pressures than lead shot .
The receivers and barrels of the older guns cannot sustain these higher pressures, and cartridge guns from the late 1800's/ early 1900's cannot stand the sustained pressures of modern lead ammo .
Sims if the newer guns can be modified to shoot steel as Elkhunter11 explained but many people just open the chokes , the chambers need to
Be relieved as well because of the initial chamber pressures involved .
Steel does not compress as lead does and it does not have the lubricity that graphite does .
Cat

[TrapperMike]

I’ve been shooting steel shot thru full chock barrels for years without any problems. What does lubricity have to do with it.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

I’ve been shooting steel shot thru full chock barrels for years without any problems. What does lubricity have to do with it.

Lubricity has to do with steel shot tending to bridge , especially in larger sizes and tighter chokes.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

I’ve been shooting steel shot thru full chock barrels for years without any problems. What does lubricity have to do with it.

Consider yourself lucky, that you haven't had any issues.

[TrapperMike]

Before using steel shot I reached out to Remington’s barrel specialist. He told me that there are a lot of misunderstandings about converting to steel. People were worried about the shot bunch or compacting in the barrel. But because the shot stays in the wad until outside the barrel and since the wad has flexibility this will not occur. Some believed that the steel would scar or wear on the barrel, but again the wad protects against this happening.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Before using steel shot I reached out to Remington’s barrel specialist. He told me that there are a lot of misunderstandings about converting to steel. People were worried about the shot bunch or compacting in the barrel. But because the shot stays in the wad until outside the barrel and since the wad has flexibility this will not occur. Some believed that the steel would scar or wear on the barrel, but again the wad protects against this happening.

If you are talking about shooting steel out of an older gun that has a full choke you are looking for trouble. Doesn't mean you will find it. But you are certainly looking for it.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Before using steel shot I reached out to Remington’s barrel specialist. He told me that there are a lot of misunderstandings about converting to steel. People were worried about the shot bunch or compacting in the barrel. But because the shot stays in the wad until outside the barrel and since the wad has flexibility this will not occur. Some believed that the steel would scar or wear on the barrel, but again the wad protects against this happening.

I’ve seen barrels that have been damaged by steel. Nice bulges behind the choke area. Not good.

[elkhunter11]

From Browning

https://www.browning.com/support/fre...g-shotgun.html

3. DO NO USE ANY STEEL SHOT LOADS:

The Belgian-made A-5, Superposed, Leige, and other Belgian Over/Under models, Double Automatic, American-made A-5 and all other models not listed in category 1 or 2.

Winchester Check page 23, Full choke not to be used with steel shot.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/conten...101_OM_WEB.pdf

And many of the older shotguns by AYA, Grulla Ugartechea, Purdey, Parker, Holland and Holland, and many others, are not to be used with steel shot.

If you are talking about shooting steel out of an older gun that has a full choke you are looking for trouble. Doesn't mean you will find it. But you are certainly looking for it.

Exactly, a person may have dumb luck, and not have a barrel bulge or split, but that doesn't mean that what they are doing is a smart idea.

I’ve seen barrels that have been damaged by steel. Nice bulges behind the choke area. Not good.

I have seen both bulges and splits.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Before using steel shot I reached out to Remington’s barrel specialist. He told me that there are a lot of misunderstandings about converting to steel. People were worried about the shot bunch or compacting in the barrel. But because the shot stays in the wad until outside the barrel and since the wad has flexibility this will not occur. Some believed that the steel would scar or wear on the barrel, but again the wad protects against this happening.

I am not sure who you were speaking with at Remington but it is a bit more complicated than " the shot staying in the wad"
The issues start at the forcing cone , and not all companies use the same dimensions .
I am not saying that old Remington and Winchester barrels are weak, quite the opposite , however as has been often stated in this thread there is much more to it than that .
Cat

[TrapperMike]

My go to shotgun is a early 1970’s Remington 870 wing master with 30’’ goose barrel and 2 3/4 shells.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

My go to shotgun is a early 1970’s Remington 870 wing master with 30’’ goose barrel and 2 3/4 shells.

If we were only risking a $300 shotgun, some of us might look at this a bit differently. However, many of us shoot much more expensive shotguns, and we obviously care more about our personal safety.

[trapperdodge]

Those Remington barrels seem to be able to handle steel. They are pretty substantial.

I shoot some Damascus stuff which is pretty tough by itself but why would send a load of steel through it? It was never designed for steel.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

An older gun that would be unsafe to use with modern loads would be unsafe weather it was lead or steel. If your gun can safely use modern lead loads it would also be safe for modern steel loads.

Now you are just babbling think about what you just stated in this post and in your last post and smarten up .
I doubt very much you even spoke to anybody at Remington now
Done with this thread .
Cat