Mandatory Harvest Reporting

[wildwoods]

Hey all,
I thought I would share with you my feedback on the Alberta Relm website. You can click the "contact us" link once signed in and offer your feedback as well if you desire.

I used to think that these reports were good- and in reality they are solid gold, if done correctly. I laid out my concerns via said comment section and hope it has a good effect. Here is what I wrote. Tear me apart if you like, but these are my concerns:

Harvest Reports

These mandatory harvest reports are a huge waste of time and offer you folks very useless, skewed information. What on earth does hunting experience quantify? Who really cares? I could have shot huge animals and had a poor hunt. I could have had an amazing hunt and shot nothing. What a ridiculous question! And asking about how many days afield and if I was successful in harvesting shows you absolutely sweet nothing!!! I hunt a certain species where I have dozens of opportunity to kill an animal and pass on them for one reason or another. How are your survey questions indicative of game numbers in a certain zone? It's completely bogus.

Ok, so I am a solutions guy. At the very least- consider adding a comments section so we can at least specify our experience. I reported not harvesting a general whitetail this year. Truth be told I had (usually multiple) chances every day I hunted to fill that tag. I chose not to. By asking how many legally harvest-able animals we observed would be way better data than you are currently asking for. Which all leads me to believe these reports are a waste of everyone's time and Government resources to extrapolate.
Furthermore, I demand to know how this data is interpreted currently. You folks have not been releasing that information and that is very concerning. We are stakeholders TOGETHER. You, as civil servants should be doing your level best to provide us hunters with the best possible experiences.
Thanks for your time.
Tyler


I understand native harvest and residency discussions. Those are key conversations. However if we can simply limit this to the current harvest reports and how we can work towards change, that would be appreciated.

I welcome your feedback and discussion. Let US be the vocal minority for once!!!!!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Your comment is a rant...I would have tried to word it a bit differently so as to be less accusational. The tone of the message will have it pushed aside quickly, even though you bring up some good points. My 2 bits.

LC

[Donkey Oatey]

So what information are they getting? Let us take a look at this.

One persons reply is worthless. 1000 peoples reply starts to make more information and trends. 100,000 peoples reply get all kinds of information.

Asking how many days you hunt give an indication of hunting pressures per WMU. # of animals killed, well that one is pretty self explanatory.

From that little bit of information they can look at average days hunted per animal killed. Now in your case you are a discriminating hunter. Didn't take anything in let's say 25 days hunted. Now 100 guys go out and average 3 days hunting and 90% kill something. Says there were probably pretty good amount of harvest-able animals in the area. But pressure might become an issue. Now if those same 100 folks go out for 15 days and no one is killing anything might be an indication that numbers are low.

Starting to see now how this information as a whole can be used as part (and I mean part not all) of the decision on wildlife management?

But please continue with the arm chair biologist career, seems to be really working out for most.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

So what information are they getting? Let us take a look at this.

One persons reply is worthless. 1000 peoples reply starts to make more information and trends. 100,000 peoples reply get all kinds of information.

Asking how many days you hunt give an indication of hunting pressures per WMU. # of animals killed, well that one is pretty self explanatory.

From that little bit of information they can look at average days hunted per animal killed. Now in your case you are a discriminating hunter. Didn't take anything in let's say 25 days hunted. Now 100 guys go out and average 3 days hunting and 90% kill something. Says there were probably pretty good amount of harvest-able animals in the area. But pressure might become an issue. Now if those same 100 folks go out for 15 days and no one is killing anything might be an indication that numbers are low.

Starting to see now how this information as a whole can be used as part (and I mean part not all) of the decision on wildlife management?

But please continue with the arm chair biologist career, seems to be really working out for most.

I am not an armchair biologist. Asking for relevant data does not make me such. It’s called holding our pros accountable. I prefaced this by saying harvest reports are good if done correctly.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions by extrapolating the data as is. When simply rewording some questions could offer way more clarity. There are a lot more “selective” hunters out there than you would believe. As witnessed on this forum every day during hunting season.

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Your comment is a rant...I would have tried to word it a bit differently so as to be less accusational. The tone of the message will have it pushed aside quickly, even though you bring up some good points. My 2 bits.

LC

You’re 100% right. I’m usually pretty darn diplomatic. I should have waited a couple days as I just completed my harvest reports and was pretty upset by the stupidity of it.

Who cares about rating an experience! What the heck does that even derive? How do you quantify that?! Mind= blown.

[CMichaud]

I tend to agree with respect to the benefit of these. I have always done them and if I heard right, they are now mandatory?

The reports seem to be rather nebulous.

On top of this but as a serious question - are FN/Metis required to complete these? Not trying to start a poi-thread but if not then I would suspect the data is really of limited use if we are not getting a more complete pic.

[ghostguy6]

Originally Posted by CMichaud

I tend to agree with respect to the benefit of these. I have always done them and if I heard right, they are now mandatory?

The reports seem to be rather nebulous.

On top of this but as a serious question - are FN/Metis required to complete these? Not trying to start a poi-thread but if not then I would suspect the data is really of limited use if we are not getting a more complete pic.

The only place I know if where they are required to report their harvest is 936.

I think these reports are only going to hurt us in the end if they continue to worded as they are now. For example when I filled out my mule deer draw I put down I hunted for one day. What I could not fill out was that someone called me and told me exactly where to find that deer so I bought the license, made the drive up and filled the tag. If it wasn't for that call I would have not even bothered to buy a general mule deer tag. Whitetail was 18 days hunting for 1 harvest. But I passed on 25-30 legal shots before taking a nice meat buck. For geese I estimated 45 days of hunting only taking 6 birds. Only one of those day I would call serious hunting. The rest I was camping during an open season with the shotgun handy in case the geese flew over camp. I guess we can call this passive hunting? Same for grouse, only one day actively looking for them but I would have shot one if I stumbled upon them while scouting. Really it was more about walking the dog but I was allowed to carry the gun and harvest if the opportunity arose. So now they got a result of 45 days hunting but 0 harvested.

[Donkey Oatey]

Again a single person's answer is worthless, 100 peoples answer is almost worthless.

See what I am getting at?

The "selective" hunter comment was to be taken as it was written. Asking about the satisfaction of your hunt also gains data. A little data as once again a single opinion is worthless. Same as online ratings. No one takes one rating an use it as gospel. You look at trends and amount of 1* 3* 5* etc.

And the harvest report is mandatory for all special draws this year. So if you were drawn for anything you have to report. Failure to do so may cause issues with draws in the future.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

The only place I know if where they are required to report their harvest is 936.

I think these reports are only going to hurt us in the end if they continue to worded as they are now. For example when I filled out my mule deer draw I put down I hunted for one day. What I could not fill out was that someone called me and told me exactly where to find that deer so I bought the license, made the drive up and filled the tag. If it wasn't for that call I would have not even bothered to buy a general mule deer tag. Whitetail was 18 days hunting for 1 harvest. But I passed on 25-30 legal shots before taking a nice meat buck. For geese I estimated 45 days of hunting only taking 6 birds. Only one of those day I would call serious hunting. The rest I was camping during an open season with the shotgun handy in case the geese flew over camp. I guess we can call this passive hunting? Same for grouse, only one day actively looking for them but I would have shot one if I stumbled upon them while scouting. Really it was more about walking the dog but I was allowed to carry the gun and harvest if the opportunity arose. So now they got a result of 45 days hunting but 0 harvested.

ALL special license draws must be reported, if not you will pay a fine and not be able to enter draws the following year until you do. It’s new this year moving forward.

*edit* I see you meant First Nation/Metis, they have to report to Wainwright and Suffield as well.

LC

[mightybuck]

I heard if you do not complete your hunter survey you will not be eligible to apply for special licences next season. I can complete mine as I was not sucessful with any of the tags I purchased this season lol.

[Smoky buck]

The more info that can be used to manage populations is better then bios throwing darts at a board guessing.

I don’t think mandatory reporting is going to cause leaps and bounds in managing wildlife but it takes very little effort for hunters to provide the information so I don’t see it as a big deal.

Could be worse Alberta could start going with the tagging station system some states use

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Again a single person's answer is worthless, 100 peoples answer is almost worthless.

See what I am getting at?

The "selective" hunter comment was to be taken as it was written. Asking about the satisfaction of your hunt also gains data. A little data as once again a single opinion is worthless. Same as online ratings. No one takes one rating an use it as gospel. You look at trends and amount of 1* 3* 5* etc.

And the harvest report is mandatory for all special draws this year. So if you were drawn for anything you have to report. Failure to do so may cause issues with draws in the future.

I am well aware that more people = better data- if the right questions are being asked. I'm not arguing that at all. I agree with you

What good is extrapolating the data with a wider survey base, when clearly they think we all shoot the first legal animal we see?! How can they make that assumption? And if I am wrong that they assume that, how can they possibly gain knowledge on populations without asking that very direct, simple question? This isn't that hard to get right. How vital would be a question like, "how many legal _______'s did you observe during those ____ days"? And yet such an important piece of the puzzle is missing.

That's my point. It's a garbage survey. And to make it mandatory, they need to get it right.

I believe the game is relatively well managed (can't say the same about the fisheries)in Alberta. But why not strive to make it even better?!!! There is some low hanging fruit to pick with regards to making it better. This survey is one of them. It's so incredibly easy, yet I feel they have failed miserably here. The reason I left my feedback was to hopefully get them thinking that some of us manage what we hunt on our own and selectively cull the herd. I am guessing a large minority of hunters do at the very least. I saw about 30 bears while hunting this spring and decided to not kill one. That was my choice. It wasn't for lack of critters that's for sure. The survey would suggest otherwise.

The worst part about all of this is apparently, they don't bother sharing how they observe this data anyways. That is very concerning. That would definitely shed some light on this stuff. It's important. It matters

See this thread: http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=373049

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

I am well aware that more people = better data- if the right questions are being asked. I'm not arguing that at all. I agree with you

What good is extrapolating the data with a wider survey base, when clearly they think we all shoot the first legal animal we see?! How can they make that assumption? And if I am wrong that they assume that, how can they possibly gain knowledge on populations without asking that very direct, simple question? This isn't that hard to get right. How vital would be a question like, "how many legal _______'s did you observe during those ____ days"? And yet such an important piece of the puzzle is missing.

That's my point. It's a garbage survey. And to make it mandatory, they need to get it right.

I believe the game is relatively well managed (can't say the same about the fisheries)in Alberta. But why not strive to make it even better?!!! There is some low hanging fruit to pick with regards to making it better. This survey is one of them. It's so incredibly easy, yet I feel they have failed miserably here. The reason I left my feedback was to hopefully get them thinking that some of us manage what we hunt on our own and selectively cull the herd. I am guessing a large minority of hunters do at the very least. I saw about 30 bears while hunting this spring and decided to not kill one. That was my choice. It wasn't for lack of critters that's for sure. The survey would suggest otherwise.

The worst part about all of this is apparently, they don't bother sharing how they observe this data anyways. That is very concerning. That would definitely shed some light on this stuff. It's important. It matters

See this thread: http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=373049

He'll of a few assumptions there. I was trying to show you what kind of information they could be extrapolating from the basic questions asked. TBH I think all they really care about is the actual numbers killed vs how many tags are available. The rest is used for other stats like hunter days per licenced hunter per wmu. Don't think they care that you passed up 30 bears other than when they ask how was your hunting experience.

Keep doubling down on the rant, even tho you really hadn't thought it all the way through. Once again your one opinion is useless. Fill out the survey and give the managers the information they want to collect.

[oldgutpile]

I would like to think that there is more to the survey than what many consider.
For example; how many days afield? This is not just about how tough your hunt was but also reflects on the tourism aspect of hunting. The more days out there, the more fuel and food you are buying from businesses in the WMU area.
The longer it took you to harvest your target animal, the better you were for the local economy! Politicians don't just look at whether you had a good time out there, (they really dont care if you shot your animal),but it actually helps them defend our pastime by looking at dollars spent.
I would think the only reason they are asking how you would rate your experience is to see if you would likely be buying tags again next year.
If used properly, I think there is lots to gain by doing the survey, but it would be nice to be able to see the final results. If nothing else, it would help me to shy away from poor harvest areas in the draw process.

[2 Tollers]

It would be interesting to know if there is any data correlation on the harvest report to the mandatory head submission. There have been a couple of posts showing dumped remains with heads in zones have mandatory submission requirements. So do these people that dumped heads just say they were unsuccessful? So false data in the report.

The data as oldgutpile said can be used to support tourism which the Pheasant survey is used for as well.

I am on the fence on this one as not all harvesters are required to report and reporting falsely (unsuccessful, increased days in the field - harder to be successful so drop the number of tags) will add a level of uncertainty to the data.

[silver lab]

Here’s some more uncertainty, non resident Canadians are not included in the report. I have spent the last hour on the phone with the 1-888 number trying to do the report for a friend that came here this year (he tried too). No dice.
Anyone else fill out the report as a non resident Canadian?

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

He'll of a few assumptions there. I was trying to show you what kind of information they could be extrapolating from the basic questions asked. TBH I think all they really care about is the actual numbers killed vs how many tags are available. The rest is used for other stats like hunter days per licenced hunter per wmu. Don't think they care that you passed up 30 bears other than when they ask how was your hunting experience.

Keep doubling down on the rant, even tho you really hadn't thought it all the way through. Once again your one opinion is useless. Fill out the survey and give the managers the information they want to collect.

Assumptions? That's all we have! They don't release the data or how it's observed?!!! That's the whole point of my feedback!

I am not saying you are wrong in how they analyze this, either. It's the fact we don't even have the chance to be a voice at the table, coupled with the ambiguity of this survey is maddening!

[PBHunter]

So the only draw I have this year is a late season WMU 300 antlerless elk tag (undersubscribed) ... the season runs Dec 25 /19 - Feb 21/20 ... the deadline for completing the survey is Feb 15/20 , my season isn’t even over, I may still be hunting after I complete the survey

[Outdoorfanatic]

So I just finish with the Wainwright hunt. I had two tags and my partner also two tags. Other hunting buddies have hunt the base over the years as well with two tags each. So in the last 11 years there as a group we've had approximately 14 tags on 10-12 different years. We've mostly used the deer tags as a bonus hunt while focusing on Cow Moose. Although we've been successful often on Cow Moose we've only taken one deer home. This last effort was exclusively for deer and although we saw deer (mostly in restricted areas) we never fired a shot. Now the base collects all heads prior to leaving the base and also does aerial surveys regularly. This last year the survey reports combined Mule deer and Whitetail over 4000 animals. So if our group had been filling out a Harvest Report for the past 11 years would that data be indicative of the health and number of deer on the base??

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 2 Tollers

It would be interesting to know if there is any data correlation on the harvest report to the mandatory head submission. There have been a couple of posts showing dumped remains with heads in zones have mandatory submission requirements. So do these people that dumped heads just say they were unsuccessful? So false data in the report.

The data as oldgutpile said can be used to support tourism which the Pheasant survey is used for as well.

I am on the fence on this one as not all harvesters are required to report and reporting falsely (unsuccessful, increased days in the field - harder to be successful so drop the number of tags) will add a level of uncertainty to the data.

100%
The hunter reporting is the reason why archery moose went to draw from general in a lot of the 500 zones
Archery hunters were too successful

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Outdoorfanatic

So I just finish with the Wainwright hunt. I had two tags and my partner also two tags. Other hunting buddies have hunt the base over the years as well with two tags each. So in the last 11 years there as a group we've had approximately 14 tags on 10-12 different years. We've mostly used the deer tags as a bonus hunt while focusing on Cow Moose. Although we've been successful often on Cow Moose we've only taken one deer home. This last effort was exclusively for deer and although we saw deer (mostly in restricted areas) we never fired a shot. Now the base collects all heads prior to leaving the base and also does aerial surveys regularly. This last year the survey reports combined Mule deer and Whitetail over 4000 animals. So if our group had been filling out a Harvest Report for the past 11 years would that data be indicative of the health and number of deer on the base??

Don't be silly. They can magically extrapolate the numbers for you. Shut up and submit

[Bushleague]

If you don't like the survey then just click "no" on the "Did you hunt deer this season" question.

I agree that the survey will not provide an accurate picture of animal populations, but I feel the need to give glowing reports just to attempt to offset all the lazy road hunters I know that will be saying "There are hardly any deer left in 350, nothin' but wolf tracks."

But maybe I've got it figured wrong.

[59whiskers]

Utter complete waste of time. Anyone could say anything. If the government was serious, they would have all hunters turn in incisor bars off all ungulates shot. Used to follow this format 30 years ago. Will unregulated hunters comply? We are just p***ing in the wind as more hunters are not required to comply.

[waldedw]

Originally Posted by silver lab

Here’s some more uncertainty, non resident Canadians are not included in the report. I have spent the last hour on the phone with the 1-888 number trying to do the report for a friend that came here this year (he tried too). No dice.
Anyone else fill out the report as a non resident Canadian?

Was just about to say this, I had a friend from Sask here on a hunter host that was draw for moose this year, no hunter survey for him, I logged onto albertarelm under his log in and password and no survey was present, I have to assume this is the same for all non alberta residents that had a special license

[Tfng]

Originally Posted by waldedw

Was just about to say this, I had a friend from Sask here on a hunter host that was draw for moose this year, no hunter survey for him, I logged onto albertarelm under his log in and password and no survey was present, I have to assume this is the same for all non alberta residents that had a special license

Thanks for this. I was checking Dad’s and he doesn’t have one either. Saved me a bunch of time by not having to call and sort it out.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Assumptions? That's all we have! They don't release the data or how it's observed?!!! That's the whole point of my feedback!

I am not saying you are wrong in how they analyze this, either. It's the fact we don't even have the chance to be a voice at the table, coupled with the ambiguity of this survey is maddening!

Why don’t you send them an email and ask. Their contact information is readily available.

[58thecat]

Collecting data is only good, beneficial and accurate if all hunters partake.....we know those that don't so why waste time....just saying.

[KBF]

It took less than 10 minutes to fill out 5 surveys for me. It doesn’t take anymore time to fill them out honestly than incorrect. It’s no different than many other aspects in life, we may not understand their logic behind certain thoughts and questions, but there must be some sort of explanation as to why they have asked it. Not everyone agrees with the decisions our wildlife officials make. Give them proper info and hope for the best. That’s all we can do.

[elkhunter11]

Even though I didn't draw any special licenses, I filled out the harvest reports. However, the system would not let me fill out my waterfowl report honestly, because it would not let me enter more than 24 Canada geese. While I took the time to fill out the reports, I will not waste more of my time to contact the people responsible, to correct their mistakes. If they want us to fill out the reports, the least that they can do is make sure that the system works.

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by KBF

It took less than 10 minutes to fill out 5 surveys for me. It doesn’t take anymore time to fill them out honestly than incorrect. It’s no different than many other aspects in life, we may not understand their logic behind certain thoughts and questions, but there must be some sort of explanation as to why they have asked it. Not everyone agrees with the decisions our wildlife officials make. Give them proper info and hope for the best. That’s all we can do.

Agreed! The number of people in the entire province who would spend the time to incorrectly submit information would be statistically insignificant. It's maybe the worst excuse for not filling them out.

Just fill the damn thing out, it benefits all of us in the end.