Castle Area Soon Closed To All OHV Use

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I think that without quads ripping all over the place that the future of hunting might be less precarious. I choose to hunt areas where quads can't access now, like others it bugs me when I get into an area and hear quads roaring around all day.

The general public would prefer to think of hunting as a "noble pursuit" where a fellow puts on a pack and goes for a walk to enjoy the wilderness and that's an image we need to promote if we want to continue hunting.

We do need to maintain some areas for off highway vehicles to use because everyone should be able to enjoy their pursuits. It's dissapointing but like some hunters a few boneheads ruin it for the rest and this is what's happened with quads.

Agree.
Banning OHV's in an area doesn't mean that banning hunting is next.
Pretty tough to defend the mess left behind by some groups from random camping as well.

As for ohv bans, Bob Creek should be a good place to go in a year or two!

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

The cattle do a lot more damage in than the OHV's. The logging does a lot more damage than the OHV's. The gas/oil companies do a lot more damage than the OHV's. Mother Nature does a lot more damage than the OHV's. But I guess it's easier to blame the OHV's than anything else. There are a lot of selfish hunters out there. There is still lots of game in the bush even with machines running around, the problem with you people is you have to get off the beaten path to find animals. Just about every time I go out I see people walk right by animals. Using a machine to get in and out of an area is nice and usually the ones that do the most bitching are the ones that don't have machines and are jealous. I personally don't care if a machine goes by me in the bush or not.

Ram Crazy, you sound bitter. I suspect that you aren't in that great of shape for lots of hiking? If that's the case, well that stinks for you. Might want to invest in a pair of running shoes.
You can bitch about these changes but you will still have to live with them.

[dshaw]

WE all agree something needs to change, but with this it just makes it closer and easier to shut other stuff down. Spend the millions and hire some enforcement to be up there on the trails and random camp places. Close the areas that need reclamation but leave open the mail ATV trails that have been there for years. Work with the local groups in communities to make it better. let us get firewood and enjoy the things we do up there. Nobody wants to see it turned in a Banff which it will. its public land, work with the public to make it better, not just tell us what they think is the best and too bad for you.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Agree.
Banning OHV's in an area doesn't mean that banning hunting is next.
Pretty tough to defend the mess left behind by some groups from random camping as well.

As for ohv bans, Bob Creek should be a good place to go in a year or two!

What is wrong with Bob Creek now?

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by dshaw

WE all agree something needs to change, but with this it just makes it closer and easier to shut other stuff down. Spend the millions and hire some enforcement to be up there on the trails and random camp places. Close the areas that need reclamation but leave open the mail ATV trails that have been there for years. Work with the local groups in communities to make it better. let us get firewood and enjoy the things we do up there. Nobody wants to see it turned in a Banff which it will. its public land, work with the public to make it better, not just tell us what they think is the best and too bad for you.

Well said.
And enough said by me on this subject.

[el sparko]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Hopefully you don't cry when they close it down to hunting as well. The problem with clowns like you are, it's all about me. We all have to ban together and play fair in the sandbox as multiple user groups, so areas don't get shut down to everyone.

you're absolutely right, we should all ban together and play fair. I'll be more than happy to go into the bush and hunt a little bit and leave the woods in the same condition I found it in.
now, the off roaders will do the same right? they won't rip up the muskeg and make bigger and bigger mud holes and leave beer cans and garbage all over the place, right?
they won't do this in ever greater numbers year after year right?
have you been to the medicine lake area lately? it's a travisty what they've done out there.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by Newview01

What is wrong with Bob Creek now?

Haha, nothing. I like it there. But i'd like it better if it was foot and horse access for ever. But that's how I hunt.
Hunting big animals in big hills isn't supposed to be easy!

[silver lab]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Haha, nothing. I like it there. But i'd like it better if it was foot and horse access for ever. But that's how I hunt.
Hunting big animals in big hills isn't supposed to be easy!

Wait until its a park and you cant hunt there..... I really dont think most people understand that not only will we loose atvs but we will loose hunting aswell. Simple people use the "easy" botton.

[rcmc]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Haha, nothing. I like it there. But i'd like it better if it was foot and horse access for ever. But that's how I hunt.
Hunting big animals in big hills isn't supposed to be easy!

What's makes you think that the Govt will allow hunting in there in near future.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Haha, nothing. I like it there. But i'd like it better if it was foot and horse access for ever. But that's how I hunt.
Hunting big animals in big hills isn't supposed to be easy!

Ahh. You don't like atvs, so nobody should be allowed to hunt with them.

What I hate about Bob Creek is stepping in horse s**t. I hope they ban horses soon.

[Wolftrapper]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Ahh. You don't like atvs, so nobody should be allowed to hunt with them.

What I hate about Bob Creek is stepping in horse s**t. I hope they ban horses soon.

It's not the atv's, it's the destruction and abuse you guys do with them.
Just like it's not a guns fault when someone is murdered by one.
But you guys don't get it. Easier to blame others.
Yes because of your atv abuse, horses, hunting, etc might be banned to. Thanks a lot.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Ahh. You don't like atvs, so nobody should be allowed to hunt with them.

What I hate about Bob Creek is stepping in horse s**t. I hope they ban horses soon.

Say what you like. Here's what controls the future of hunting in the western world:
DEMOGRAPHICS. Whats the percentage of hunters in the province? 5-6%?
You can yell, protest, vote, whatever. Unless you have the support of urban non hunters, you're F@@KED! So when people say we should all stand together no matter what our differences are, I don't see that making a bit of difference.

And do you think that images of the mess of places like Mclean Creek, Waiporous, etc makes urban non hunters in any way sympathetic to the cause of hunting?

But no. ignore simple demographics. Get ****ed at me or another hunter on here because they don't share your view. Maybe sign a petition, join some facebook page, what ever. The future is going to slap you in the cheek anyway.

This is a HUNTING forum, that's why i read things on here. If this was called the OHV forum, you could expect solidarity on this issue.

So am I glad that the rule changes favor my way of hunting? heck yeah! Who wouldn't be?

[thenaturalwoodsman]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Ahh. You don't like atvs, so nobody should be allowed to hunt with them.

What I hate about Bob Creek is stepping in horse s**t. I hope they ban horses soon.

Agreed. Ban horses!! Useless animal!!

[slickwilly]

Originally Posted by rcmc

What's makes you think that the Govt will allow hunting in there in near future.

Because Willmore and all the other Wildland Parks allow hunting.

Why would this one be any different? If anything, the fact that they are planning to allow hunting in the actual provincial park section would make this one of the most hunter-friendly parks in the province.

[Klondike]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Haha, nothing. I like it there. But i'd like it better if it was foot and horse access for ever. But that's how I hunt.
Hunting big animals in big hills isn't supposed to be easy!

I'd like to see the expression on you face when you're humping out that "big animal in big hills" when ol' cowboy welfare comes rollin by, carting out a moose, in his polaris ranger farm implement.

If you think atv use is shut out of Bob creek then you are sadly mistaken. Go back and read the thread about that closure. People were complaining about atv's still being seen in the area. In fact even seen to be used of trail. On a hill side of I recall correctly. Someone made a call and discovered that there are a number of groups/ people that have continued access to that area via atv. And it would appear that who ever was in the area has little regard of off trail use.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Wolftrapper

It's not the atv's, it's the destruction and abuse you guys do with them.
Just like it's not a guns fault when someone is murdered by one.
But you guys don't get it. Easier to blame others.
Yes because of your atv abuse, horses, hunting, etc might be banned to. Thanks a lot.

Are you seeing a lot of damage in Bob Creek from ATVs?

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Say what you like. Here's what controls the future of hunting in the western world:
DEMOGRAPHICS. Whats the percentage of hunters in the province? 5-6%?
You can yell, protest, vote, whatever. Unless you have the support of urban non hunters, you're F@@KED! So when people say we should all stand together no matter what our differences are, I don't see that making a bit of difference.

And do you think that images of the mess of places like Mclean Creek, Waiporous, etc makes urban non hunters in any way sympathetic to the cause of hunting?

But no. ignore simple demographics. Get ****ed at me or another hunter on here because they don't share your view. Maybe sign a petition, join some facebook page, what ever. The future is going to slap you in the cheek anyway.

This is a HUNTING forum, that's why i read things on here. If this was called the OHV forum, you could expect solidarity on this issue.

So am I glad that the rule changes favor my way of hunting? heck yeah! Who wouldn't be?

Lots of hateful words, but you need to check the percentage of people who use ATVs in one way or another to hunt.

My point is that Bob Creek is an excellent example of conservation. ATVs allowed on trails, size restrictions, etc. So when you complain about ATVs after being in Bob Creek, your argument doesn't hold water anymore. You just have a bone to pick with someone or something.

As for any other area, the solution is enforcement, not banning.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Klondike

I'd like to see the expression on you face when you're humping out that "big animal in big hills" when ol' cowboy welfare comes rollin by, carting out a moose, in his polaris ranger farm implement.

If you think atv use is shut out of Bob creek then you are sadly mistaken. Go back and read the thread about that closure. People were complaining about atv's still being seen in the area. In fact even seen to be used of trail. On a hill side of I recall correctly. Someone made a call and discovered that there are a number of groups/ people that have continued access to that area via atv. And it would appear that who ever was in the area has little regard of off trail use.

So there is a group of people not abiding by the law? Hmm. Better ban the ATV. After all its not like the people are to blame.

[calgarychef]

I've been giving this some more thought and as much as I hate to hear quads while I'm hunting there is a better way than outright banning.

1. Create a quading licence that includes extensive education regarding ecological issues and ethical considerations.

2. Create a really nice trail system with a few mud holes for the people who can't resist this kind of thing.

3. Create rules, including camping rules.

4.Charge a user fee that covers rehabilitatin of certain areas and can pay for proper policing. Charge for camping because it's a drain on resources and needs to be policed.

5. Have good incentives for people to self regulate ($ for reporting law breakers)

6. Ban people from using the area if they stray from the rules.

I'd say that the same thing could have been done at the sibbald gun range. The problem is government can't manage anything correctly and it's easier for them to ban activities or close areas.

All of these activities need to be a user pay thing to get the public on board without digging into their own pockets.

Quad dealerships really need to get onboard with a training fund to teach users proper environmental stewardship.

[The moose]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I've been giving this some more thought and as much as I hate to hear quads while I'm hunting there is a better way than outright banning.

1. Create a quading licence that includes extensive education regarding ecological issues and ethical considerations.

2. Create a really nice trail system with a few mud holes for the people who can't resist this kind of thing.

3. Create rules, including camping rules.

4.Charge a user fee that covers rehabilitatin of certain areas and can pay for proper policing. Charge for camping because it's a drain on resources and needs to be policed.

5. Have good incentives for people to self regulate ($ for reporting law breakers)

6. Ban people from using the area if they stray from the rules.

I'd say that the same thing could have been done at the sibbald gun range. The problem is government can't manage anything correctly and it's easier for them to ban activities or close areas.

All of these activities need to be a user pay thing to get the public on board without digging into their own pockets.

Quad dealerships really need to get onboard with a training fund to teach users proper environmental stewardship.

The quad squad, Who is a major benefit to the area was trying to implement exactly this. They provided thousands of hours of volunteer work remediating the area and establishing a proper trail use program only to have it ripped abruptly from under them.

This is my biggest irritation with the whole park proposal, It takes into account some demographics while shunning the others. With proper implementation and the proper people (quad squad) this area could be something for all Albertans to enjoy no matter what activity they are pursuing.

It took very little into account from the populace that was utilizing the area and the locals from the area. The only place of commerce thats going to be of value in the area is going to be the gas station as people refuel to keep heading to BC. The residents in this area rely on the people traveling to these areas for many OHV uses.

Many people in the farming community felt this way under the new labour rules imposed to them. If it worked there why would the NDP do it again.

While im not opposed to protecting a beautiful area and preventing negligent behavior, its a shame to pursue it in this matter by outright banning all OHV use.

Why hire 44 new positions to enforce a ban when those jobs could have been created to enforce proper usage and generate funding for conservation of the area thru trail passes ,Fines, OHV registration. Its not much different than our Licensing dollars going to conservation, Pretty much same kettle of fish.

[el sparko]

there is at least one outfit that has a grip on this issue, out in the south ram river area a group called friends of the eastern slopes have created a network of maintained trails that are there for public use free of charge.
they have made these trails challenging and easy to use. much of the area was closed to o.h.v traffic ten or so years ago due to misuse and abuse as well as bad injurys. we go out there annually and always have a great time.
these regulated trails seem to attract a much saner type of user there is very little ripping and roaring and general drunken stupidity.
the gov. could learn a lot from an organization like this.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by Klondike

I'd like to see the expression on you face when you're humping out that "big animal in big hills" when ol' cowboy welfare comes rollin by, carting out a moose, in his polaris ranger farm implement.

If you think atv use is shut out of Bob creek then you are sadly mistaken. Go back and read the thread about that closure. People were complaining about atv's still being seen in the area. In fact even seen to be used of trail. On a hill side of I recall correctly. Someone made a call and discovered that there are a number of groups/ people that have continued access to that area via atv. And it would appear that who ever was in the area has little regard of off trail use.

I hiked 18 kms thru bob creek on saturday. Took the dog for a walk. Also hunted in there in October and November. The area is closed to recreational OHV use. Theres a trapline in there, he used an atv. The grazing leaseholders can use OHVs.
In October the area was being patrolled pretty hard by Alberta Parks, looking for OHV use. They fined a guy for driving a half ton in there when we were there.

When I hunt with the intention of packing out an animal, that's what I do.
But if you're friendly to the grazing leaseholder, and don't treat him like he's some lucky SOB cowboy welfare slob, he just might offer to throw my elk quarters on his trailer.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Lots of hateful words, but you need to check the percentage of people who use ATVs in one way or another to hunt.

My point is that Bob Creek is an excellent example of conservation. ATVs allowed on trails, size restrictions, etc. So when you complain about ATVs after being in Bob Creek, your argument doesn't hold water anymore. You just have a bone to pick with someone or something.

As for any other area, the solution is enforcement, not banning.

Hateful words? are you kidding?
And I truly don't care how a person travels while hunting. I choose to hunt on foot. So when an area removes OHVs, it favors my style of travel. period.

I take issue with people lecturing other hunters about how we all have to stick together. The theory doesn't hold water from a statistical perspective.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Hateful words? are you kidding?
And I truly don't care how a person travels while hunting. I choose to hunt on foot. So when an area removes OHVs, it favors my style of travel. period.

I take issue with people lecturing other hunters about how we all have to stick together. The theory doesn't hold water from a statistical perspective.

Maybe you could try change these statistics?

Bob Creek allowed ATV use on trails, and up to around 30m I think to set up camp. This worked great. All the times I have been there it was quiet, saw very little ATV use, mostly horses. Keeping the ATVs out has done nothing to preserve the area. The people who broke the law there before are not likely going to be prevented from doing so in the future.

As I said before, Bob Creek was a model for what conservation could be. People of your type are self-interested to the detriment of the hunting community in general.

[Huk]

The guy using the side by side in bob creek was the rancher and from what I was told he was caught by fish and wildlife and fined.

Bob Creek is an excellent example of conservation and I'm actually stoked that there are going to be more wildland parks. The hunting is BETTER in Bob Creek in the areas you CAN'T quad. Markedly better. I've got no sympathy for guys who can't get in shape to backpack in and harvest an animal in the hills. Work harder!

I don't want to ban all quads or stop people hunting with quads. Your method of take is your choice and we're all hunters and I respect that...but it's not unreasonable to have areas where backpack or horseback hunters don't have the nuisance of quads ripping around and chasing game all over the place. Having areas where you need to work your ass off to get into provide better habitat for animals, and therefore better hunting.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Huk

The guy using the side by side in bob creek was the rancher and from what I was told he was caught by fish and wildlife and fined.

Bob Creek is an excellent example of conservation and I'm actually stoked that there are going to be more wildland parks. The hunting is BETTER in Bob Creek in the areas you CAN'T quad. Markedly better. I've got no sympathy for guys who can't get in shape to backpack in and harvest an animal in the hills. Work harder!

I don't want to ban all quads or stop people hunting with quads. Your method of take is your choice and we're all hunters and I respect that...but it's not unreasonable to have areas where backpack or horseback hunters don't have the nuisance of quads ripping around and chasing game all over the place. Having areas where you need to work your ass off to get into provide better habitat for animals, and therefore better hunting.

There are plenty of areas that are not accessible by quad. In Bob Creek one cannot legally rip all over and chase game all over the place. There is what, two trails through it? Give me a break.

[Huk]

Yeah and of the 20 trucks parked at the staging area, 18 of those guys quad in on those 2 trails. I don't see many of them coming out with animals and I purposely stick to the other side, where the hunting is better and there is WAY less pressure. Having the whole park as a no quad zone would be an improvement in my opinion.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Maybe you could try change these statistics?

Bob Creek allowed ATV use on trails, and up to around 30m I think to set up camp. This worked great. All the times I have been there it was quiet, saw very little ATV use, mostly horses. Keeping the ATVs out has done nothing to preserve the area. The people who broke the law there before are not likely going to be prevented from doing so in the future.

As I said before, Bob Creek was a model for what conservation could be. People of your type are self-interested to the detriment of the hunting community in general.

How on earth am I a detriment to the hunting community in general? Did I impose an OHV ban? You make it sound like I am out trying to stop atv use! Which isn't the case at all. I could care less really.

But it's funny that you used the phrase "a detriment to the hunting community in general". Because that's exactly what I think of when I think of guys who have torn up the trails, ride up streams, random camp the **** out of an area, etc. It's that kind of behavior that gets areas shut down to OHV use.
My advise to you Newview, is to get a gym membership if you want to keep hunting the Eastern slopes of the Rocky mountains.

As I said before, this is a hunting forum not an atv forum! If you don't want to hear opposing opinions, go to an atv forum.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Pekan

How on earth am I a detriment to the hunting community in general? Did I impose an OHV ban? You make it sound like I am out trying to stop atv use! Which isn't the case at all. I could care less really.

But it's funny that you used the phrase "a detriment to the hunting community in general". Because that's exactly what I think of when I think of guys who have torn up the trails, ride up streams, random camp the **** out of an area, etc. It's that kind of behavior that gets areas shut down to OHV use.
My advise to you Newview, is to get a gym membership if you want to keep hunting the Eastern slopes of the Rocky mountains.

As I said before, this is a hunting forum not an atv forum! If you don't want to hear opposing opinions, go to an atv forum.

You don't understand. I love walking, in fact the majority of my hunting is done on my two feet. That said in Bob Creek it was great to be able to quad a tent to the north end and stay for a few days. And the quads sit for a few days while we hunt out of the camp.

Your desire to shut down areas should not supersede my desire to keep an area as is.

As far as major OHV damage in Bob Creek, there is none. The cattle are what you should really be worried about there...

[Huk]

Well there are other ways to get your camp in to be fair. I pulled mine in on the snow in a sled not this past November but the one before and after listening to a Randy Newberg podcast I'll be bringing my mountain bike with me before the snow flies.

I will agree with you 100% that cattle do the bulk of the damage in Bob Creek, no question.

I'm more concerned with having an area that is a competition of desire and hard work versus who spent $ and raced to their spot the quickest on their machine.
Just the fact that most people will stay away from an area because the topography is challenging to hike on and the prospect of packing something out on your back daunting is an attractive thing for me. And I think having more areas like that doesn't hurt.