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  #181  
Old 04-09-2010, 09:50 PM
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Enough
Kind of like you've owned enough Jewell triggers to know all about them?
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  #182  
Old 04-09-2010, 09:54 PM
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where they shot in exactly the same spot? exactly the same distance? exactly the same reloads?
  #183  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:00 PM
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Chuck,
I don't have to come on here bragging about how many Jewel triggers I have to explain to a numbnutz like you that they are considered the best trigger in North America.
I have been trapping, hunting as well as guided for guys like Dumb and Dumber and I don't have to explain that to you either.Don't ask for my credentials I can weed out Internet cowboy hunters as well.
  #184  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:04 PM
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A very fascinating study was done in the 90's by a southern state on just under 500 deer killed on a hunt club. Because of the setup the results were highly controlled and documented. Of the 253 instant bang flops 222 could be shown to have directly contacted/caused trama to the spine. Some of the results are: Bucks and does reacted equally to killing shots, 1 in 4 deer don't react at all to the shot impact and deer shot with a .277 cal averaged 31 yards of travel before dieing as compared to 33 yards for those shot with a .308 cal bullet. The study seperated out bullet types and construction and cartridges. It was very well done. Lots of great info that doesn't support shock killing anything, not even little southern deer.
Thats contradictory, if shot in the spine and didnot die from the shock to the central nervous system did they bleed to death out of there back? that doesn't support any theory that I can comprehend. Everything is bigger in texas even the BS.lol
  #185  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:50 PM
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It is funny they all go off at the same time.



After reading some info on a nother fourm I figurd I would share it do to it conterdicts some thing about you great barnes bullets.Please explain this to me since I dont know nothing.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB...833e8846cacc8e

Have a great read.This is what I am talking about.



Noneck some of your posts made me laugh for about 10 minutes. I loved the Bus that was great.
  #186  
Old 04-09-2010, 10:52 PM
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P.O. Ackley had some interesting reports about which bullet did what on what tissue. IIRC, he was a big proponent of high velocity controlled expansion bullets. He played a critical role in bullet experimentation for the U.S. military. For whatever reason no one has been able to accurately analyze, velocity plays a critical role in disrupting tissue.

Certainly a case can be made for 'very controlled expansion' bullets such as the Barnes TTSX, however, likewise can be argued for the more 'frangible' bullets such as the Berger VLD's.

Obviously, a bullet must enter the 'vital organs' of an animal to produce damage. Therefore, if a given bullet fails to penetrate sufficiently to distrupt and destroy vital tissue, that bullet will not produce the desired effects. On the other hand, should a given bullet achieve desired penetration yet produce limited destruction of vital tissue, again something is lost in regards to bullet performance.

There is no doubt that some bullets are less affected in their path than other bullets if heavy resistance is encountered, they continue to penetrate into vital tissue. The penalty of such ability to retain mass is that of reduced tissue damage. On the other hand, a bullet that 'grenades' once entering vital tissue will, without question, inflict greater damage. The downside is, when, or if, this bullet will reach and then destroy tissue as intended.

Personally, I've taken few shots when the angle dictated the need to penetrate shoulder bone to reach the vitals or many quartering away shots where maximum penetration was required. Still, I have taken this shot and with mostly the NBT, then more recently with the VLD. Each and every one was fatal, maybe not instantaneously, but no animal was lost. Would a bullet with a greater ability to penetrate have performed better, it's difficult to judge.

Quite obviously, a trade off betwen penetration and expansion of the bullet exists. For those who require a bullet which offers superior penetration due to added resistance such as bone or length of tissue, then the Barnes TTSX bullet meets their needs. It will definitely kill the animal if the shot is appropriately placed.

In contrast, should the shooter place the bullet so as to avoid undue resistance to bullet path, then there is little doubt that the more violently expanding bullet will disrupt and destroy more tissue thus causing a quicker death of the animal.

Since the shooter can encounter differing bullet placement opportunities and angles, each bullet offers a given set of advantages and disadvantages.

I can't comment much on the use of the Barnes TTSX or similar bullets, but I can share my experience with the NBT on some 50 animals plus my limited experience with the Berger VLD on deer, moose and some african plains game.

I recognize the loyal following the Barnes bullets enjoy, and for good reason, I also recognize the success of those who kill game with other bullets such as the Berger VLD. It's best if we all share our true experiences, the benefit seems obviuos.

Bobby B.
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  #187  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:08 PM
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Very well written Bobby
  #188  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
After reading some info on a nother fourm I figurd I would share it do to it conterdicts some thing about you great barnes bullets.Please explain this to me since I dont know nothing.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB...833e8846cacc8e

Have a great read.This is what I am talking about.
After reading all about it on the internet. Did this TSX fail?



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  #189  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:30 PM
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After reading all about it on the internet. Did this TSX fail?



Sure does not look like an x bullet. so yes.



It is illegall to use solids(FMJ) in Alberta
  #190  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:51 PM
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So did the bullet in the middle, by the fact that it's front end blew apart, create a bigger energy dump? Or do the bullets that have the larger AND wider frontal area that penetrated just as far transfer more energy? I couldn't see a hill of beans difference in the Elks reaction between any one of them.

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  #191  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:59 PM
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Well if you had to shoot an Elk 3 times at 80 yards, I wouldn't be showing pictures,, I would be buying some Bergers.
  #192  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:03 AM
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So did the bullet in the middle, by the fact that it's front end blew apart, create a bigger energy dump? Or do the bullets that have the larger AND wider frontal area that penetrated just as far transfer more energy? I couldn't see a hill of beans difference in the Elks reaction between any one of them.

I dont know thae answer to your questons. You shot that elk 3 times? Why? Nothing against you but that is why I hate barnes I dont think you should have to shoot an aminal 3 times to kill it.2 time max.Thanks for sharing your pics.
  #193  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:07 AM
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I dont know thae answer to your questons. You shot that elk 3 times? Why? Nothing against you but that is why I hate barnes I dont think you should have to shoot an aminal 3 times to kill it.2 time max.Thanks for sharing your pics.
I guess cause I can work a bolt action rifle three times faster than it took him to fall on his face.
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  #194  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:11 AM
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I guess cause I can work a bolt action rifle three times faster than it took him to fall on his face.
Great answer I liked that one.

So really from first shot to last how long apart?
  #195  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:26 AM
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Great answer I liked that one.

So really from first shot to last how long apart?
I don't know exactly, but not long.
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  #196  
Old 04-10-2010, 03:57 AM
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It is funny they all go off at the same time.



After reading some info on a nother fourm I figurd I would share it do to it conterdicts some thing about you great barnes bullets.Please explain this to me since I dont know nothing.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB...833e8846cacc8e

Have a great read.This is what I am talking about.



Noneck some of your posts made me laugh for about 10 minutes. I loved the Bus that was great.
I'll tell you what,i've never done this before but this fall I take a picture of the exit wound of my W\T Buck that I shoot with my nosler balistic tip bullet,and you will see a hole the size of a GrapeFruit.Since holes Kill and not Energy,i'll be sticking with my balistic tips.
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  #197  
Old 04-10-2010, 06:53 AM
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Not any of the hunters that I know....energy is a pretty simple calculation that only includes velocity and mass. Not sure why you have velocity and distance in your calculation. They are directly proportional. The further away an animal is, the more loss of velocity. Distance is irrelevant. Only velocity at that distance matters.

As for animals falling down and getting back up, it's pretty easy to explain. The temporary disruption of the nervous system wasn't enough to keep them down and the permanent wound chanel wasn't instantly lethal. Energy doesn't kill except in rare circumstances. The kenetic energy of a bullet isn't that great in the scheme of things.
Sheephunter, try not to believe everything you read or be influenced by text books or military exercises. The greatest teacher in life is experience. Go back into your memory bank (not your text book - common sence only) and think of your kills and what the bullet had performed.
  #198  
Old 04-10-2010, 06:58 AM
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Thats contradictory, if shot in the spine and didnot die from the shock to the central nervous system did they bleed to death out of there back? that doesn't support any theory that I can comprehend. Everything is bigger in texas even the BS.lol
Wasn't done in Texas, there is a lot of the world south of me. What it does strongly suggest was that unless the bullet stuck and damaged the spine or something connected to the spine like the shoulder the bullet impact has very little incapacitating effect from a "shockwave". Since the shoulder blade lies directly over the neck / back junction hitting the shoulder causes paralyzing trauma to the spine. The bullet hole did the rest while the animal was incapacitated.
All of the animals were shot from elevated stands so high shoulder shots also were lung shots. 49% of the deer ran an average of 59 yards after being shot, before dieing. All were shot with centerfire rifles. So close range and centerfire rifles, it sure looks like the mythical shock wave failed to turn up doesn't it?
  #199  
Old 04-10-2010, 07:31 AM
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Never assume right, small southern deer had me thinking lonestar state. I don't remember touting anything about a shockwave let alone a mythical one ( although I almost had a crack at a unicorn last fall) I said energy has to have apart, if not then deer would run the same distance with a heart /lung shot from anything, say a bow, a .22 mag. 22-250 30-06. If they run 100 yrds from a thru &thru from a 1" broad head, and 30 yrds from a thru& thru from an '06, then what is the differeniating factor. It wouldn't be ft/lbs of energy imparted to the body would it? Holes kill right, how can a buffalo with a hole thru his heart and blood pumping out like a garden hose stay on his feet for 2-3min, other then just being tough he was literally dead on his feet.I don't know that a 45-70 with the same shot would have knocked him off his feet and had the same end result, I do know I wish I had something of that nature at the time.
  #200  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:02 AM
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I dont know thae answer to your questons. You shot that elk 3 times? Why? Nothing against you but that is why I hate barnes I dont think you should have to shoot an aminal 3 times to kill it.2 time max.
I shoot elk until they drop,in fact both of my largest bulls were each shot three times with Nosler Partitions,one with a 7mmstw,the other with an 8mmremmag.Both were going to die very shortly after the first shot,but I kept shooting until they hit the ground.

Quote:
I guess cause I can work a bolt action rifle three times faster than it took him to fall on his face.
Same situation here.
  #201  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
Sheephunter, try not to believe everything you read or be influenced by text books or military exercises. The greatest teacher in life is experience. Go back into your memory bank (not your text book - common sence only) and think of your kills and what the bullet had performed.
Already done! My opinion stays the same.

I find a blend of science and anecdotal evidence typically gets you closer to the truth than solely relying on one or the other. To discount either is not productive.

Last edited by sheephunter; 04-10-2010 at 08:15 AM.
  #202  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:11 AM
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My mistake, I thought you were supporting the shock wave theory. The actual amount of energy transferred is tiny, much is converted to heat. The remainder is transferred over the distance of the wound negating any comparison to being hit by a car etc where the transfer is complete at point of contact. Flesh is very resilient and while the temporary wound channel distorts it in a ripple effect there just isn't enough fluid present to cause a shock wave and after the temporary wound channel closes the permanent one is left. Barring a frag field, permanent damage is limited to within 1/2" of the bullets passage. The bison stays standing because of the volume of blood in the body. If you think of critters as bath tubs and all have the same size drain hole the larger tub takes longer to drain. i seen several bison shot by different guns and only two flattened the critter on the spot, a 300 WBY mag to the spine and a 25/06 behind the ear. None of the big guns like a 416 Rem Mag did anything other than put a drain hole in the big buggers.
  #203  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:19 AM
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[QUOTE=elkhunter11;559065]I shoot elk until they drop,in fact both of my largest bulls were each shot three times with Nosler Partitions,one with a 7mmstw,the other with an 8mmremmag.Both were going to die very shortly after the first shot,but I kept shooting until they hit the ground.



Many pages back in this thread I expressed my concern over people equating "bullet failure" to an animal not dropping at the shot. When you hunt for over 30 yrs. such as myself , your going to run into afew animals(big or small) that are dead on the hoof and still makin for the county line I too shoot until they pile up ,to those who choose not too, is it arrogance that allows your concience to believe that every bullet is placed where you point. Oviously you've not run into Mr. Murphy yet!
  #204  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:23 AM
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[QUOTE=leo;559075]
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Many pages back in this thread I expressed my concern over people equating "bullet failure" to an animal not dropping at the shot. When you hunt for over 30 yrs. such as myself , your going to run into afew animals(big or small) that are dead on the hoof and still makin for the county line I too shoot until they pile up ,to those who choose not too, is it arrogance that allows your concience to believe that every bullet is placed where you point. Oviously you've not run into Mr. Murphy yet!
As I've said before. The more animals I shoot (and there have been dozens) the less I know. That is why I shoot bullets designed for the worst of scenarios.
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  #205  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:35 AM
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Hmmm! Sounds like a new thread title .
  #206  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:42 AM
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[QUOTE=chuck;559079]
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As I've said before. The more animals I shoot (and there have been dozens) the less I know. That is why I shoot bullets designed for the worst of scenarios.
Thats just crazy talk Chuck! Everyone knows that the TSX is a bullet that just simply doesnt work. Heck...3 shots at an elk. Everyone knows that if you shoot a bullet the like the Berger that the animals just fall into the back of your truck.

Jeez havent you watched any TV lately????

Its amazing guys like us are even killing so many big game animals with such an inhumane bullet....
  #207  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:54 AM
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Rack... I put three Bergers through a ram at 80 yards as fast as I could work the bolt. Just because him walking 10 yards and dropping was going to cause a lot more work for my day. He was dead on the first one but I missed the spine and shoulder so he never dropped. The last was a shot through the length of the body and guess what? That Berger exited - at 80 yards too. hmmm.
  #208  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:55 AM
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Ok, enough of the back and forth bantering already!

My orignial question was whether the people on this forum preferred Nosler Partition or Accubond bullets, and to provide some pictures of these bullets recovered from animals.

I realize different calibers, different shot placements, different shot angles, etc. will all have an impact on whether or not an animal is killed and what the resulting recovered bullet will look like.

I have used 165 gr. Nosler Partitions in the past and they have worked very well, and I have recently changed to 180 gr. Partitions, but I wanted to know what people's experiences were with the Accubond.

Let's stay on topic here and quit with all the bad mouthing and bashing. Opinions are good, but I wanted opinions based on personal experience, not on whims, made up numbers and calculations, etc.

Thanks to all those that provided good and informative feedback.

-Trevor

  #209  
Old 04-10-2010, 09:02 AM
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So did the bullet in the middle, by the fact that it's front end blew apart, create a bigger energy dump? Or do the bullets that have the larger AND wider frontal area that penetrated just as far transfer more energy? I couldn't see a hill of beans difference in the Elks reaction between any one of them.

I can just see the Barnes bullet avocates rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. Chuck, you just took all credability away with this post and proven to non-Barnes users that this bullet is subordinate to the true expansion bullets. You are right that " holes kill ". When using Barnes bullets "lots" of holes are needed. Out of 98 big game animals 95% were one shot kills using Nosler Ballistic Tips except for one, I used a TSX. That lung shot buck ran over 500 yards before fall over dead. If it wasen't for wide open country and snow I would of lost the buck . The 1% were a finishing neck shot. The TSX is a relativily new bullet and in recent years I have heard many stories from my hunting clients and other hunters of lost animals because of the these narrow expansion projectiles. The Barnes bullets is the closest thing to a FMJ. Chuck, take some advice from experience for a change.
  #210  
Old 04-10-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by noneck180 View Post
Dead is dead.. and I shoot my guns enough, because I am not using bullets that cost a $1 a piece like most of you "ethical hunters" and shoot once a month, maybe?? then spend the rest of your time trying to tell other hunters a bunch of bull... that doesn't matter.

BTW SH have you shot an animal with a Berger, or just using your science degree??
WELL PUT!!!!! MUST AGREE!!!!!!!!!!
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