Hunting dogs or dogs hunting??

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You really have no clue do you!

Show me on place that anyone here is advocating breaking the law?
TM stated as the law reads "now". Meaning the dog isnt supposed to be in camp so then would be illegal, not that it alerted you of a bear.
This thread may have moved to fast for you to keep up but that is what we are trying to change the ability to have the dog in camp.

Seems to me your fighting this pretty hard, seems to be a little personal initative to try and deter trying to change these regulations.
SG

Sorry Sheepguide it's stupid question time. I thought it was perfectly leagal to have a dog with you at your camp as long as they are not participating in the hunt of any large game animal with the obvious exceptions? The reason I ask is we have been checked by Fish and Wildlife every year and we have had our dogs in camp each time and it was never even questioned. Is this just in the parks that your referring to? Obviously I've missed something.

[podman]

Not only would I love to have my dog with me in the mountains while I am hunting big game but also when pheasant and deer season overlaps it is frustrating to go hunt deer then go get the dog so I can go for pheasant then take him home to go for deer. With deer I would be happy to leave him in my vehicle but from what I have heard you can't.
I think the pack thing would be nice but for me it would be all about companionship. I agree with SG there should be regulations on how far a dog can be from it's handler while hunting big game, but don't want to be like BC where they have to be on a leash. I agree with the protection part with an early warning that the dog may provide. I have a GSP and it has never chased big game ever, like stated above he looks at the game and back at me waiting for the NO command. Now birds are completely different haha.

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by podman

Not only would I love to have my dog with me in the mountains while I am hunting big game but also when pheasant and deer season overlaps it is frustrating to go hunt deer then go get the dog so I can go for pheasant then take him home to go for deer. With deer I would be happy to leave him in my vehicle but from what I have heard you can't.
I think the pack thing would be nice but for me it would be all about companionship. I agree with SG there should be regulations on how far a dog can be from it's handler while hunting big game, but don't want to be like BC where they have to be on a leash. I agree with the protection part with an early warning that the dog may provide. I have a GSP and it has never chased big game ever, like stated above he looks at the game and back at me waiting for the NO command. Now birds are completely different haha.

I've heard this from a couple people myself but just this past season I had my dog and a buddies dog with us leashed in the bed of buddies pick up. We went out hunting for the morning leaving the dogs in the truck. After a few hours buddy had a nice doe down. We immediately tagged it and cleaned it and headed back to the truck to grab a quad. While we were unloading the quad Fish and Wildlife pulled up. We had blood on us so they knew we had shot something. We explained the situation, they checked our tags and rifles which by that time were unloaded and in the truck. We explained that we were going to let the dogs streach their legs with us while we recovered our deer. They never said a word about it. I'm curious now though. I think I'll have to call the local F&W for an "official answer".

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Scotty P.

Sorry Sheepguide it's stupid question time. I thought it was perfectly leagal to have a dog with you at your camp as long as they are not participating in the hunt of any large game animal with the obvious exceptions? The reason I ask is we have been checked by Fish and Wildlife every year and we have had our dogs in camp each time and it was never even questioned. Is this just in the parks that your referring to? Obviously I've missed something.

Ive been meaning more with the back pack hunting where you have camp with you some when your hunting. And you travel through your hunting area with your dog.
We took a dog all the time when horse hunting for sheep but he was always left in camp while we hunted. And as we traveled to camp we werent hunting.
Darcy

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ive been meaning more with the back pack hunting where you have camp with you some when your hunting. And you travel through your hunting area with your dog.
We took a dog all the time when horse hunting for sheep but he was always left in camp while we hunted. And as we traveled to camp we werent hunting.
Darcy

Excellant! Thanks for clarifying Darcy and just for the record I agree you should be able to bring your dog if you choose to. Hopefully it's put to a vote.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Where can I find the dog laws that cover our public foresty ? Not trying to be a ***** but when I look up dog laws I only seem to get town bylaws not public lands outside of these areas. Im sure im just looking wrong so some help would be great.
SG

The Wildlife Act is enforcable within Forestry lands.

Damage or threat caused by private animals - Section 80
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/w10.pdf



"Not trying to be a *****" It's OK, be who you are.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"Not trying to be a *****" It's OK, be who you are.

I try LOL

[Nait Hadya]

"And as we traveled to camp we werent hunting."

what jurisdiction were you in? travelling to camp you say..... carrying weapons were you? looking for sheep as you rode along? looking for tracks? licensed to hunt? geeze i can see a loophole here. riding through jasper national park with sheep licenses and weapons,,,,, are you guys hunting in the park? heck no,look we got a dog with us.....

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

"And as we traveled to camp we werent hunting."

what jurisdiction were you in? travelling to camp you say..... carrying weapons were you? looking for sheep as you rode along? looking for tracks? licensed to hunt? geeze i can see a loophole here. riding through jasper national park with sheep licenses and weapons,,,,, are you guys hunting in the park? heck no,look we got a dog with us.....

Do you even read other people posts in full before posting? As far off as they are I Gotta thank you though, I haven't laughed this hard reading someone posts in a long time.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

"And as we traveled to camp we werent hunting."

what jurisdiction were you in? travelling to camp you say..... carrying weapons were you? looking for sheep as you rode along? looking for tracks? licensed to hunt? geeze i can see a loophole here. riding through jasper national park with sheep licenses and weapons,,,,, are you guys hunting in the park? heck no,look we got a dog with us.....

Ok so you can understand.

Zone 420, packing in camp(not traveling to camp) always around Aug. 20(no open seasons). Yes carrying weapons(doesnt make a person hunting). Yep looking for sheep(still doesnt make you hunting). Yep looking for tracks( again doesnt make you hunting). Even packing camp in during an open season with a dog,gun and sheep tag isnt illegal. Take that dog with you when you leave camp and "Hunt" then it is illegal. See a sheep while a dog is with you(packing camp or any other time) and go after that sheep then you are illegal.
I can ride my horse or walk anywhere with my gun with my dog looking at sheep or any other animal and looking for tracks. Doesnt mean you are taking in the actions of hunting.

And not sure where you pulled Jasper from(rather not know) but to hunt Alberta you dont need to ride in the national park to get to any sheep hunting areas and Jasper Park isnt anywhere close to where I hunt.
And the dog in the park must be leashed, not just controled. Used to ride the park lots when Sunday hunting wasnt allowed and my dog was always with me and legal.

Cant wait till you grasp the next straw and make you next uneducated stab at showing why you so badly want to stop this from happening.

SG

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Even packing camp in during an open season with a dog, gun and sheep tag isnt illegal. SG

Are you sure about that SG? It sounds to me that you might be breaking the law.

"Use of dogs for hunting big game
45(1) A person shall not
(a) be accompanied by a dog while hunting big game,

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Are you sure about that SG? It sounds to me that you might be breaking the law.

"Use of dogs for hunting big game
45(1) A person shall not
(a) be accompanied by a dog while hunting big game,

key word is "Hunting" I can have my dog with me as long as any of the acts dont coincide with hunting(spotting for the purpose to harvest, stalking, shooting ,retreiving). Packing camp and such arent hunting, just like carrying a rifle on a quad before noon when moving a camp in you can carry the rifle but can not "hunt" until camp is set up.
People have a tough time with what is actually the act of hunting.
SG

[HunterDave]

Well, I wouldn't chance it myself unless I had my rifle dismantled and put away.

[ILUVTRAPPING]

I think you would be able to explain it to most CO's and you wouldn't have a problem, but if you ran across one that may be a bit officious he would view you as hunting. I wouldn't want to test it!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Well, I wouldn't chance it myself unless I had my rifle dismantled and put away.

Many hunters in the mountain zones hunting off horses have dogs in camp, same as most if not all Outfitters. They are all checked each year by F&W and because there are not acts of hunting. Our camp has been checked by no less than 10 officers and each has seen our dog, we have also seen many officers trailing in and out as we have to ride right past the 40 Mile forestry cabin and never a word about the dog or dogs that were with us as there is no hunting acts being done so there is no illegal activities.
Ill chance it any day as it isnt illegal.
SG

Originally Posted by HunterDave

To answer your first bunch of questions all that you would have to do is develop a set criteria with SRD that accurately describes what a pack dog is and anyone that wanted to take their dog with them would have to get their dog certified as a pack dog. Any fees associated with certifying the dog would be paid by a one time testing fee at the dog's owner's expense. It wouldn't matter if the dog was a mutt or a purebred but it would help to prevent undesirable dogs being in the bush.

24:

Ya that would be simple

We don't even certify hunters so why would we certify pack dogs. So should bird dogs and cougar hounds fall under this new regulation as well?

Think about it Dave......KISS

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Many hunters in the mountain zones hunting off horses have dogs in camp, same as most if not all Outfitters. They are all checked each year by F&W and because there are not acts of hunting. Our camp has been checked by no less than 10 officers and each has seen our dog, we have also seen many officers trailing in and out as we have to ride right past the 40 Mile forestry cabin and never a word about the dog or dogs that were with us as there is no hunting acts being done so there is no illegal activities.
Ill chance it any day as it isnt illegal.
SG

I think it is a stupid law, but the word "hunting" has a fairly loose definition as outlined in the wildlife act. I personally don't want to put myself in a situation to test out the definition.

If you had a tag, happen to be in camp during the legal season and legal hours and an elk walks through camp would you shoot it?

The whole time you are in camp with a tag, in season, during legal hunting hours, etc, you are hunting.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I just talked to my neighbor 3 doors down (everyone is 3 doors down in Morinville ) who is an executive on the Morinville F&W Club about joining. They are listed as AFHA affiliates(?) for this zone. The crossbow issue got me thinking about it but the more that I'm learning about how the system works the more that I think it'd be worthwhile to join. Perhaps several of us could endorse/present Sheep's proposal in various zones to give it a boost?

What do you think Sheep? Do you think that we could all sing from the same sheet of music and would it help the cause? Or, would you rather go it alone?

That's why I went the AFGA resolution route.....the government listens to numbers and the AFGA is a respected organization. I kept the resolution simple for a reason. Let's not bog it down with speculative rules and regulations. Let's put the idea in the Government's mind and let them warm up to it. They can decide what the rules governing the use of pack dogs can be. Make this complicated with mandatory certification and other such nonsense and it will never get off the ground. The government loves simplicity.

[Skinnydipper]

Sheep,

When do you speculate this resolution maybe put before government eyes or has it already?

Originally Posted by Skinnydipper

Sheep,

When do you speculate this resolution maybe put before government eyes or has it already?

It will be presented to the delegates at the AFGA conference in late February by my club. If it is passed, then the AFGA passes it along to SRD and at some point they comment on all resolutrions presented to them.

TJ

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

I think it is a stupid law, but the word "hunting" has a fairly loose definition as outlined in the wildlife act. I personally don't want to put myself in a situation to test out the definition.

If you had a tag, happen to be in camp during the legal season and legal hours and an elk walks through camp would you shoot it?

The whole time you are in camp with a tag, in season, during legal hunting hours, etc, you are hunting.

It would be illegal to shoot or hunt that bull as the dog is present.

Second being in camp isnt considered hunting.

Hunting is defined as...

Britanica Encyclopedia - pursuit of game animals principally for sport.

Columbia Encyclopedia - act of seeking, following, and killing wild animals for consumption or display.

Webster's Online Dictionary
with Multilingual Thesaurus Translation
Definition: hunting


Noun
1. The pursuit and killing or capture of wild animals regarded as a sport.[Wordnet]
2. The activity of looking thoroughly in order to find something or someone.[Wordnet]
3. The work of finding and killing or capturing animals for food or pelts.[Wordnet]
4. The pursuit of game or of wild animals.[Websters].
Verb 1. To chase, quarry or pursue. [Eve - graph theoretic]
2. To quest or search. [Eve - graph theoretic]
3. To shoot. [Eve - graph theoretic]
4. To yaw, lace, snare or noose. [Eve - graph theoretic]
5. To skew. [Eve - graph theoretic]
6. To braid or twist. [Eve - graph theoretic]
7. To research or study. [Eve - graph theoretic]
8. To track, course or trail. [Eve - graph theoretic]
9. To drive or run.[Eve - graph theoretic]
10. Present participle conjugation of the verb hunt.[Eve - graph theoretic]

Verb Base
(hunt) 1. Pursue for food or sport (as of wild animals); "Goering often hunted wild boars in Poland"; "The Duke hunted in these woods".[Wordnet].
2. Pursue or chase relentlessly; "The hunters traced the deer into the woods".[Wordnet].
3. Chase away, with as with force; "They hunted the unwanted immigrants out of the neighborhood".[Wordnet].
4. Yaw back and forth about a flight path.[Wordnet].
5. Oscillate about a desired speed, position, or state to an undesirable extent; "The oscillator hunts about the correct frequency".[Wordnet].
6. Seek, search for; "She hunted for her reading glasses but was unable to locate them".[Wordnet].
7. Search (an area) for prey; "The King used to hunt these forests".[Wordnet].
8. To search for or follow after, as game or wild animals; to chase; to pursue for the purpose of catching or killing; to follow with dogs or guns for sport or exercise; as, to hunt a deer.[Websters].
9. To search diligently after; to seek; to pursue; to follow; -- often with out or up; as, to hunt up the facts; to hunt out evidence.[Websters].
10. To drive; to chase; -- with down, from, away, etc.; as, to hunt down a criminal; he was hunted from the parish.[Websters].
11. To use or manage in the chase, as hounds.[Websters].
12. To use or traverse in pursuit of game; as, he hunts the woods, or the country.[Websters].
13. To follow the chase; to go out in pursuit of game; to course with hounds.[Websters].
14. To seek; to pursue; to search; -- with for or after.[Websters].
15. Base verb from the following inflections: hunting, hunted, hunts, hunter, hunters, huntingly and huntedly.[Eve - graph theoretic]

Adjective
1. Being sporting. [Eve - graph theoretic]
2. Being predatory. [Eve - graph theoretic]
3. Being haunting. [Eve - graph theoretic]
4. Being square. [Eve - graph theoretic]
5. Being dashing.[Eve - graph theoretic]

Sources: compiled from various sources, (under license) copyright 2008. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, WordNet 3.0 Copyright © 2006 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.




It all goes to the pursuit and seeking aspect which I have been saying all along.
SG

[LongDraw]

Sheepguide,

SRD and the Provincial courts use the Alberta Wildlife Act to define "hunting", not a dictionary, thesaurus, or the Encyclopedia. Big difference.

As per the Alberta Wildlife act if you appear to be hunting or have intent to hunt you are hunting.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya that would be simple

We don't even certify hunters so why would we certify pack dogs. So should bird dogs and cougar hounds fall under this new regulation as well?

Think about it Dave......KISS

Well, maybe certify isn't the right terminology but potential hunters are tested before being granted the privilege of being able to hunt and before they can have a firearm in their possession.

KISS is relative and I don't see anything overly complicated about a well developed and understandable implementation plan. Developing one takes a bit of effort though. I just think that if you have a good argument to support the proposal you'd stand a better chance of getting it approved, that's all.

I've pretty much dealt with bureaucrats all of my life and I probably was one at one time or another. My experience is that if something is presented in such a way as it can't be argued against too hard, the better the likelihood of having it approved. However, if you ask a simple question then you'll likely get a simple answer. Maybe the round table discussions with AFGA and SRD are different, but you'd think that there would be a little discussion before deciding on it?

Old Army saying, "Fail to plan.....Plan to fail."

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

As per the Alberta Wildlife act if you appear to be hunting or have intent to hunt you are hunting.

(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to
a subject animal,
(i) shoot at, harass or worry,
(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search
for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in
subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person
is so hunting;

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to
a subject animal,
(i) shoot at, harass or worry,
(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search
for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in
subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person
is so hunting;

Subsection 6 refers to "intent"

[Skinnydipper]

As is clear in my line of work with code related activities, intent of the code, or law in this case, and the perspective of various officers takes these intense definitions and can bring them to real world solutions. As SG has pointed out already, any of the officers that have checked his camps don't believe that it is the intent of the individuals in that camp to use the dog for anything other than companionship so they don't bother harassing hunters for that. I imagine it is quite common in many outfitter camps to have companion dogs.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Sheepguide,

SRD and the Provincial courts use the Alberta Wildlife Act to define "hunting", not a dictionary, thesaurus, or the Encyclopedia. Big difference.

As per the Alberta Wildlife act if you appear to be hunting or have intent to hunt you are hunting.

Here is the defination of hunt directly from the wild life act.

(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to
a subject animal,

(i) shoot at, harass or worry,
(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search
for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in
subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person
is so hunting;


As you stated you must apear to be or have the intent to hunt as defined by the act(shown above) which when in camp you are not. How can people have the intent to pursue, follow, shoot, harass, flush, stalk ect when in they are in their tent , chopping wood, cooking, sitting around the fire or any activity around camp? Again guys here are grasping at straws in order to try and proove others wrong and not to actually discuss and contribute to the topics of the thread.
SG

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Skinnydipper

As is clear in my line of work with code related activities, intent of the code, or law in this case, and the perspective of various officers takes these intense definitions and can bring them to real world solutions. As SG has pointed out already, any of the officers that have checked his camps don't believe that it is the intent of the individuals in that camp to use the dog for anything other than companionship so they don't bother harassing hunters for that. I imagine it is quite common in many outfitter camps to have companion dogs.

Indeed, Officers should have some discretionary powers and common sense should prevail.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Well, maybe certify isn't the right terminology but potential hunters are tested before being granted the privilege of being able to hunt and before they can have a firearm in their possession.

KISS is relative and I don't see anything overly complicated about a well developed and understandable implementation plan. Developing one takes a bit of effort though. I just think that if you have a good argument to support the proposal you'd stand a better chance of getting it approved, that's all.

I've pretty much dealt with bureaucrats all of my life and I probably was one at one time or another. My experience is that if something is presented in such a way as it can't be argued against too hard, the better the likelihood of having it approved. However, if you ask a simple question then you'll likely get a simple answer. Maybe the round table discussions with AFGA and SRD are different, but you'd think that there would be a little discussion before deciding on it?

Old Army saying, "Fail to plan.....Plan to fail."

Dave, there is nothing to plan. The first step is getting SRD to consider this. My experience says if you bog it down with a bunch of onerous conditions it won't get a look. Get them interested and then let the discussion begin. This isn't my first trip down this road. I'm actually sorry I brought it up. I fear all this well intentioned meddling will be the death of it ugh Honestly, I appreciate the fact you are interested but truthfully, you aren't helping.

BTW, there is no physical testing hunters.....to ask for it for dogs will absolutely be the death of this idea. You choose if you want to help or hinder....

It's an idea for SRD to consider. If they like the idea, let them be the bureaucrats...that's whaty they do......try telling the military how to do something and see the results......

It's a simple idea, done in many jurisdictions without a problem. Maybe let's just keep it simple here too. We already have loads of hunting dogs in the field here in Alberta without chaos.....I suspect this would be the same.


EDIT: Your post above (#358) is the brightest thing you've said in this discussion...perhaps that statement should apply to the use of pack dogs as well.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

As you stated you must apear to be or have the intent to hunt as defined by the act(shown above) which when in camp you are not. How can people have the intent to pursue, follow, shoot, harass, flush, stalk ect when in they are in their tent , chopping wood, cooking, sitting around the fire or any activity around camp? Again guys here are grasping at straws in order to try and proove others wrong and not to actually discuss and contribute to the topics of the thread.
SG

SG,

How can you say you are not hunting when you are at a camp you have packed in to your hunting area? Do you ever glass from camp? You can still chop wood, eat lunch, and have a nap while you are hunting, all at your camp.

I am not grasping at straws or trying to prove you wrong. My point is I don't want to leave it up to an officers "discretion" or a judge to tell me if I was right or wrong.

I think we are both in agreement the current law is flawed. This is the topic of thread.