Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #511  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:18 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhuntley12 View Post
Do you have any feral horses as mounts currently? My sister in the States had a mustang that used to be feral but never saw it in person. I've always been curious about them catching them and getting them back home.

Was a stud up near Mesa Butte a couple years ago that someone probably could have got a halter on without too much trouble, was lame though and never saw it again after that year.
All of mine have moved on. We currently have paper paint show horses that takes a ton of our time. The last one I had was a couple years ago. A yearling stud colt. He was like a friggin puppy dog once he figured out what grain was. His only vice was he liked to jump fences. I lived near a highway at the time so I ended up selling him due to this.
  #512  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:22 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

I'll have to dig through my gear and find my Dads old wildie foot snares and post up a pic. When used right they were a great tool but to many guys didn't use them properly or check then enough.
  #513  
Old 06-03-2013, 08:56 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
ESRD has maintained a pretty tight rein on the feral horses in the Upper Oldman through trapping permits. The Kananaskis horses have gotten out of hand and have only been recently had any population control, I believe in 2012.
ESRD control permits have been the better part of a joke. They have been ongoing for many many years but have been so on again off afaik that the only places they can control is in small horse numbers in the south. They do the same in the central part of the province but it has had minimal success due to the vast areas and large horse numbers. But to say ESRD has a rein on it is a bit premature to say the least!!!

How many horses reside in the Oldman area? How many permits have been issued yearly for the last 10yrs? How many horses have been removed Yearly? And what did this being the population from and down to?

With out this you really have no clue if they have any success or control!!!

Hey Buff you ever been through any of the high horse population areas?? The areas holding the vast majority of the horse numbers?

Last edited by sheepguide; 06-03-2013 at 09:13 AM.
  #514  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:14 AM
sjemac sjemac is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild&Free View Post
After how many generations does one consider a feral population and wild population? 2, 3, a dozen? Its not like all these horses were released after they were born into domestication is the distinction I think some people were trying to make.

IMO, if it's born wild, it's wild. If it was born into domestication and allowed to go wild or released into the wild then it's Feral. That is my interpretation of the words, so to me they are wild horses. Insisting that they are feral after several successful generations in the wild is putting a negative connotation on the animal that did not choose to be born where it was but is doing what all life does, survive and reproduce.

The fact that this turned into a debate over what wild and feral mean, some of you seem to be grasping at straws trying to keep your arguments relevant. You kind of got lost in the fervor to convince others that these animals are a problem. Still haven't seen much, if any, evidence to support that claim.
The debate over whether they are feral or wild is very important to how they will be treated. It is not mere semantics. Just because you want to have your own definitions of feral and wild does not mean that the scientific community shares those. This isn't grasping at straws but the basic scientific definition of what feral means.

I haven't stated that they were a problem BTW, just that there are way more now than their used to be. I would like to see firm peer-reviewed eividence indicating that they are or aren't causing a negative impact before I call for protection or eradication or a cull.
__________________
Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity.

Marshall McLuhan
  #515  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:21 AM
sjemac sjemac is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
We targeted that age range. When we ran them and threw ropes it was always young horses. When we trapped we were selective on the horses we took. So I'd say probably 90% of what I personally took were of this age.
So then if capture permits were reinstated, could they then have to specify the age range of horses captured and that they NOT be sold to slaughter? If that was made a condition of the permits I would not be as against the trapping vs. hunting of excess horses. But then who would regulate that and police that the rules are followed? There would have to be an actual management plan to ensure the age structure of the horse population did not skew too much in one direction etc. That requires ultimately the province to take control of the issue.
__________________
Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity.

Marshall McLuhan
  #516  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:30 AM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild&Free View Post
After how many generations does one consider a feral population and wild population? 2, 3, a dozen? Its not like all these horses were released after they were born into domestication is the distinction I think some people were trying to make.

IMO, if it's born wild, it's wild. If it was born into domestication and allowed to go wild or released into the wild then it's Feral. That is my interpretation of the words, so to me they are wild horses. Insisting that they are feral after several successful generations in the wild is putting a negative connotation on the animal that did not choose to be born where it was but is doing what all life does, survive and reproduce.

The fact that this turned into a debate over what wild and feral mean, some of you seem to be grasping at straws trying to keep your arguments relevant. You kind of got lost in the fervor to convince others that these animals are a problem. Still haven't seen much, if any, evidence to support that claim.

Did you get lost and forget that these horses are not Indigenous Wildlife?

Some of these horses may be "wild", but all of them are Feral exotics.
  #517  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:33 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Of coarse they could specify ages. They for many years specified tou had to catch so many of one sex before you keep any of the other.

And by controlling all young aged stock you will up the ages in your herds and between natural aged mortality and the removal of up and coming stock you should be able to control numbers. If you get enough participation and enough permits issued.

As for the hunting tag issue. I don't believe you would get enough participation to actually control numbers to the extent of making a dent in the population. That's just my opinion but honestly how many guys are going to go hunt an old horse year after year?
  #518  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:33 AM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
ESRD control permits have been the better part of a joke. They have been ongoing for many many years but have been so on again off afaik that the only places they can control is in small horse numbers in the south. They do the same in the central part of the province but it has had minimal success due to the vast areas and large horse numbers. But to say ESRD has a rein on it is a bit premature to say the least!!!

How many horses reside in the Oldman area? How many permits have been issued yearly for the last 10yrs? How many horses have been removed Yearly? And what did this being the population from and down to?

With out this you really have no clue if they have any success or control!!!

Hey Buff you ever been through any of the high horse population areas?? The areas holding the vast majority of the horse numbers?





You sure are all over the place with this post.


Trapping permits are a joke?

Now you are saying that there are large horse numbers in the central area.
Agreed!

Are you saying that the trapping effort needs to be consistent and possibly increased? Or since you claim that trapping is not effective in this area, does there need to be other population control methods used to reduce the "large horse numbers"? A "Natural" hunting party can be organized to get the job done if trapping is uneffective.


I said that the Upper Oldman herd has been reined in, not the central Alberta area. If you want to know the numbers, call Forestry and Lands, I'm pretty sure they will tell you what they told me. Why the refusal to believe that trapping has kept this herd in check? Are you upset to hear that trapping has worked?


Yes, a few times.
  #519  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:38 AM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,207
Default

What does the scientific community think about Feral Horses?


"THE WILDLIFE SOCIETY
5410 Grosvenor Lane • Bethesda, MD 20814-2144
Tel: (301) 897-9770 • Fax: (301) 530-2471
E-mail: tws@wildlife.org
Final Position Statement
Feral Horses and Burros in North America
Feral horses and burros are invasive species in North America. Exotic, non-native species are
among the most widespread and serious threats to the integrity of native wildlife populations
because they invade and degrade native ecosystems. When invasive species are perceived as a
natural component of the environment, the general public may regard them as “natural,” not
understanding the damages they inflict on native systems. These misperceptions create special
challenges for wildlife managers. As a result, some groups advocate conservation and
management of exotic species that promote their continued presence in landscapes where they
are not native. Because these species are exotic, few policies and laws deal directly with their
control. Feral horses (Equus caballus) and burros (E. asinus) that roam freely across western
North America and along the Atlantic coast are examples of such species: they are iconic and
beloved by some, but damage wildlife habitat and require improved and sustainable management
practices. The numbers and impact of feral horses and burros can be difficult to control,
amplifying their effects on native habitat and wildlife. In some cases, management of feral horses
and burros and their effects divert resources (human and financial) from management of native
species and habitat.
Feral horses and burros in North America are descendants of domestic horses and burros that
either escaped from or were intentionally released by early European explorers and later settlers.
Although many horse lineages evolved in North America, they went extinct in North America
approximately 11,400 years ago during the Pleistocene, along with many other mammals. All
horses and burros now present in North America are descendants of those domesticated in
Eurasia and Africa (respectively) and were subjected to many generations of selective breeding
(artificial selection) before they were introduced to North America by settlers. Since native North
American horses went extinct, the western United States has become more arid and many of the
horses’ natural predators, such as the American lion and saber-toothed cat, have also gone
extinct, notably changing the ecosystem and ecological roles horses and burros play.
Herds of feral horses and burros can damage the habitat they occupy. Estimates suggest that
these herds range across more than 45 million acres in 10 American states and 2 Canadian
provinces in western North America. Feral horses are also found in eastern North America on
barrier islands off the coasts of Maryland, Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina, and Nova Scotia.
Large herbivores (both native and non-native) disturb landscapes by trampling soils and
vegetation, selectively grazing palatable plants, and altering the distribution of nutrients in the
ecosystem. Research in the Great Basin has reported that areas inhabited by feral horses have
fewer plant species and less grass, shrub, and overall plant cover than areas without horses, and
more invasive plant species and weeds such as cheatgrass, an invasive species that degrades
wildlife habitat. Riparian and wetland areas may also be impacted by feral horses and burros
through soil compaction and increased erosion. The overall impact feral horses and burros have
on any type of ecosystem depends on intensity and duration of use, timing, and the health and
2
resilience of the area. Where feral horse and burro density is high, lands are degraded, water
resources are limited, and native species are already stressed, impacts can be substantial.
When feral horses and burros are introduced to an ecosystem, much of the native habitat is used
by these non-native grazers. Free-ranging horses typically use higher elevations and steeper
slopes than cattle, often moving to higher elevations for grazing, defense, and temperature
control. Because of horses’ flexible lips and long incisors, they are able to crop vegetation close
to the soil surface, which can delay re-growth of grazed plants. The digestive systems of burros
and horses dictate that they must ingest more forage per unit of body mass than any other largebodied
grazer in western North America. Feral horses are also dominant among native Great
Basin ungulates in social interactions, notably at watering areas. There may not be aggressive
behavior among horses, deer, and bighorn sheep (Ovis canadensis), but the presence of horses
can affect the distribution of native species and their use of the habitat.
The diet of feral burros overlaps a great deal with that of bighorn sheep and uncontrolled burro
populations have been predicted to lead to greater competition for forage and a decline in the
populations of bighorn sheep and other native animals. Burros have one of the most-inclusive
diets of large mammals. Given the climates that their ancestors inhabited, extant burros typically
live in the hotter, drier ecosystems of North America. In those systems, rainfall is so scant that
annual productivity is very low, and recovery from disturbance has been reported to require
decades to centuries, depending on the type, intensity, and duration of the disturbance.
The small reptiles and mammals in the western North American ecoregion that depend on
burrows and brush cover to survive and breed are lower in species diversity and less abundant in
horse- and burro-occupied sites. These reptiles and mammals are an important component of the
ecology of desert systems because they are a link in the food web, and perform numerous critical
ecosystem functions (e.g. prey base, nutrient cycling, seed dispersal, insect control).
A variety of management practices have been in use since Congress passed the Wild Free-
Roaming Horses and Burros Act in 1971, which guides management of feral horses and burros
on Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and U.S. Forest Service lands in the western U.S.
Existing management practices include: periodic population counts and rapid assessments of
ecosystem status to determine where overpopulation exists; roundups to capture and transport
animals; use of contraception to reduce productivity; adoption of animals to private owners; and
the humane euthanasia of old, ailing, or unadoptable animals. However, management involving
euthanasia, and sometimes roundups, is severely restricted by public opinion. While the public
and interest groups express concern for the affected horses and burros, they often fail to consider
the conservation of native plants and animals in the ecosystem, and the likelihood that horses and
burros will die from starvation, thirst, and exposure when their numbers exceed the carrying
capacity of the region.
Due to public opinion, animals passed over for adoption are not euthanized; instead, they are
placed into short- or long-term holding facilities. The number of animals adopted annually has
declined in recent years, necessitating additional holding facilities. In turn, program costs are
rising to unsustainable levels and diverting funding that could be used to manage and sustain
habitats for native wildlife. Sound, scientifically-based feral horse and burro management
3
practices should be employed to conserve the highly sensitive arid and semiarid ecosystems of
the West and keep taxpayer costs to an acceptable level.
The policy of The Wildlife Society regarding feral horses and burros is to:
1. Encourage the BLM and U.S. Forest Service to place primary emphasis upon the habitat
needs of native wildlife and plants when developing, revising, and implementing herd
management plans and to include wildlife biologists with differing areas of expertise on
planning teams.
2. Encourage the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and National Park Service to remove feral
horses and burros from all refuges and parks to protect wildlife and their habitat, historic
and archaeological resources, and other trust values.
3. Encourage the BLM to eliminate feral horse and burro populations in Herd Areas that
have been determined to have insufficient habitat resources necessary to sustain healthy
horse populations.
4. Recommend that BLM and other responsible agencies direct adequate attention and
resources toward accurately and precisely identifying the impacts of feral horses and
burros on wildlife populations, habitats, and other natural resources managed for public
benefit by 1) developing and implementing appropriate survey and removal methodology
2) conducting surveys and removals in a timely manner to minimize impacts on natural
resources that can result from the overpopulation of feral horses and burros and 3)
identifying and mitigating impacts on perennial and ephemeral riparian and wetland
habitats, upland habitats, and threatened, endangered, and special status species of
wildlife. Inventories should be performed using scientifically-based abundance
estimation techniques that quantify population size and associated estimate error.
5. Support the use of roundups to remove feral horses and burros from rangeland while
simultaneously seeking opportunities to improve the knowledge and use of the best and
most humane capturing and handling methods.
6. Recognize that adoption programs are a socially acceptable method for removal and
relocation of feral horses and burros, but that the pool of possible adopters is declining
and adoption is not a viable long-term solution to overpopulation.
7. Support euthanasia as a humane method for removal of old, ailing, or unadoptable feral
horses and burros and as a possible method to control population size.
8. Recognize that no feral horse or burro management plan should depend solely on fertility
control given the uncertainty, logistical difficulty, and great expense that still exist
regarding these methods.
9. Support increased funding for scientifically-defensible assessments of ecosystem
conditions and interactions between feral horses and burros and native wildlife used to
make decisions related to feral horses or burro management. Such assessments should
4
consider the welfare of the feral horses and burros, and the ability of the system to
conserve native plant and animal populations and provide ecosystem services such as
clean air, clean water, and carbon sequestration.
10. Support the management of feral horses and burros at or below Acceptable Management
Levels using a statistically valid sampling methodology. Underestimated populations can
hinder management plans and lead to increased levels of resource damage.
11. Discourage the conversion of currently viable, ungrazed native or converted grasslands to
pasture lands to house unadoptable horses and burros, privately or publically owned.
12. Cooperate with the conservation and animal-welfare communities to educate the public
and key decision makers about the evolutionary history and ecological role of feral horses
and burros and the negative impact they have on native vegetation and wildlife, including
mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and endangered species.
Approved by Council July 2011. Expires July 2016."
  #520  
Old 06-03-2013, 09:56 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Buff you post nothing new here! It's been said time and time again!!! No one has argued if they are feral or not!!! Your wasting your time!

You yourself used the damage they do as an excuse! I called you and TJ out on it over a year ago and said if there is so much damage then show people! You couldnt then and im sure wont now. The only way anything is going to get done is if people prove how harsh they are on the environment and wildlife. Just harping we will get it by teaching people that they are feral!! Well I hate to tell you all but a large number already know this and still want them there. Prove the negativity!! That's all that will sway the pro horse people that something should drastically be done!
Of coarse some areas are hit hard and do need vast numbers reduced but still not one person in this day and age of camera phones, video cameras and still photography no one has been capturing these vast negative results of horses!
  #521  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:06 AM
pikeslayer22 pikeslayer22 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,701
Default

When will they open season on the "Feral" Elk? You know the ones that the farmers let out of capativty into the Wild? How many generations of offspring until one can call them "Wild"????
  #522  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:17 AM
Wild&Free Wild&Free is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac View Post
The debate over whether they are feral or wild is very important to how they will be treated. It is not mere semantics. Just because you want to have your own definitions of feral and wild does not mean that the scientific community shares those. This isn't grasping at straws but the basic scientific definition of what feral means.

I haven't stated that they were a problem BTW, just that there are way more now than their used to be. I would like to see firm peer-reviewed eividence indicating that they are or aren't causing a negative impact before I call for protection or eradication or a cull.
Arguing semantics is important, it's what some legal and logical battles boil down to. What does this word mean in this instance. English is a horrible language for this as one word can have many different meanings, as has been illustrated in this discussion. BTW, I like that we agree and disagree with each other consistently on this, good learning discussion.

This issue resides in a huge grey area within our society. Being an animal that can and does change the environment it lives in to suit it's own needs above the needs of every other animal, with a desire to still remain a part of that environment as it was before we arrived. We must make a choice to either maintain the status quo of human involvement in changing and adapting our environment or leaving it as it is and changing and adapting ourselves to the environment.

Walking Buffalo. That report, while from the US, does refer to Canadian horses, and corralation between the similar environments found in the US and here in Alberta can be included in this discussion. What I found most interesting was:

Quote:
Research in the Great Basin has reported that areas inhabited by feral horses have fewer plant species and less grass, shrub, and overall plant cover than areas without horses, and more invasive plant species and weeds such as cheatgrass, an invasive species that degrades wildlife habitat.
Now, the punctuation of this makes one think that the horses are controlling the invasive plants, but on second look they are promoting the spread of invasive plant species. IMO, invasive plants can be just as harmful, if not more, to an ecosystem then animals. It's added competition for food sources, one the native animal might not be able to eat and one the invasive species thrives upon.

You know, still haven't got an answer of how long it takes a population of feral animals to be considered wild animals. Would it be after x number of generations, or would it be after the ecosystem they were introduced found equilibrium again?

Wild animals move between ecosystems all the time, and we don't try to control that. Where I was from in BC, moose were not around at the turn of the century when settlers first arrived. Apparently there was a large fire somewhere to the north that opened up a passage that allowed moose to enter the area where they thrived until hunting drastically reduced their numbers in the mid 80s and 90s. There were large conservation efforts put in place to rebuild this invasive moose population. Why is this scenario different then the horses?
__________________
Respond, not react. - Saskatchewan proverb

We learn from history that we do not learn from history. - Hegel

Your obligation to fight has not been relieved because the battle is fierce and difficult. Ben Shapiro
  #523  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:19 AM
Wild&Free Wild&Free is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeslayer22 View Post
When will they open season on the "Feral" Elk? You know the ones that the farmers let out of capativty into the Wild? How many generations of offspring until one can call them "Wild"????
good point.
__________________
Respond, not react. - Saskatchewan proverb

We learn from history that we do not learn from history. - Hegel

Your obligation to fight has not been relieved because the battle is fierce and difficult. Ben Shapiro
  #524  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:21 AM
Rman Rman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeslayer22 View Post
When will they open season on the "Feral" Elk? You know the ones that the farmers let out of capativty into the Wild? How many generations of offspring until one can call them "Wild"????
I would assume right after we see elk used in large numbers with saddles on their backs??? Just because those elk are on farms, does not mean they are domesticated.

This thread is getting way off track with fellers shooting from the lip.

Please keep it on track. There is a pile of excellent information on it, and it would be a shame for it to be locked.


R.
  #525  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:26 AM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeslayer22 View Post
When will they open season on the "Feral" Elk? You know the ones that the farmers let out of capativty into the Wild? How many generations of offspring until one can call them "Wild"????
Ummm..... Elk are indigenous to alberta........just sayin.
  #526  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:27 AM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild&Free View Post
good point.
Not really. See my post above.
  #527  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:35 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Was pretty surprised at how many times wild is used in the Merriam-Webster dictionary under the definition of Feral! I like the bold statement!

fe·ral adjective \ˈfir-əl, ˈfer-; ˈfe-rəl\

Definition of FERAL

1
: of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast <feral teeth> <feral instincts>
2
a : not domesticated or cultivated : wild
b : having escaped from domestication and become wild<feral cats>
— feral noun
See feral defined for English-language learners »
See feral defined for kids »
Examples of FERAL

They led a feral existence.
<animal experts discourage homeowners from trying to adopt feral animals as pets>
Origin of FERAL

Medieval Latin feralis, from Latin fera wild animal, from feminine of ferus wild — more at fierce
First Known Use: 1604
Related to FERAL

Synonyms
wild, savage, unbroken, undomesticated, untamed, wilding
Antonyms
broken, busted, domestic, domesticated, gentled, tame, tamed
Related Words
uncontrolled, undocile, unsubdued, untrained; bestial, brutal, brute; barbarous, uncivilized
Near Antonyms
controlled, docile, familiar, semidomesticated, subdued, submissive; halterbroken, housebroken, trained; civilized, semicivilized, socialized
  #528  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:43 AM
Rman Rman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild&Free View Post
Wild animals move between ecosystems all the time, and we don't try to control that. Where I was from in BC, moose were not around at the turn of the century when settlers first arrived. Apparently there was a large fire somewhere to the north that opened up a passage that allowed moose to enter the area where they thrived until hunting drastically reduced their numbers in the mid 80s and 90s. There were large conservation efforts put in place to rebuild this invasive moose population. Why is this scenario different then the horses?
This secenario is different than the horses, because moose are a native species, and horses were introduced. As you said, wild animals move around, and that is their nature to do so.
I would really like to remove most of the emotion out of the debate, and start addressing facts.
Facts are, that the horses were introduced. Not thousands of years ago, but in the early 1900's. Regardless of how many generations they have been there, they are all still an introduced species. By definition as such, they do not belong in the ecosystem.
The emotional part comes from the fact that they are horses, and they don't seem to be doing any harm. The fact is, this can't be proven one way or another by anyone on this forum. Feral and introduced species have been scientifically proven to damage ecosystems in virtually every part of the world. Until we recieve a full biological study, including plant migration, we won't have a correct answer.
My problem is the money that gets spent on that study, will be paid for by tax payers, and will likely cost 7 figures. I can also guarantee that kind of money has already been spent over the last 200 years in varoius attemps at "management", enforcement, etc.
As with most other situations, eradication is not option, as it would be difficult to acomplish without spending another 7 figure number, and I don't want my money spent like that either.
What I would like to see is that these horses can be managed in a humane and productive way, and that a reasonable compromise is met by all parties involved. We have existing laws in place and the framework exists to acomplish this without spending a pile of tax payer money.
Calling them truly wild, which puts them on a pedastal, is an issue, and the public really needs to be educated as to how they got there in the first place, and what the potential risks are if they stay unmanaged. I don't think anyone here, that I have read, is for that. I also don't think anyone here is for the establishment of a protected area for these horses to live in, which of course, would mean restricted access.

So maybe instead of arguing amonst ourselves, about words and grass damage and other, quite frankly fluff, we can discuss what each of us would like to see done moving forward. At least I think we can all agree that doing nothing is not the way to go?


R.
  #529  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:44 AM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
Buff you post nothing new here! It's been said time and time again!!! No one has argued if they are feral or not!!! Your wasting your time!

You yourself used the damage they do as an excuse! I called you and TJ out on it over a year ago and said if there is so much damage then show people! You couldnt then and im sure wont now. The only way anything is going to get done is if people prove how harsh they are on the environment and wildlife. Just harping we will get it by teaching people that they are feral!! Well I hate to tell you all but a large number already know this and still want them there. Prove the negativity!! That's all that will sway the pro horse people that something should drastically be done!
Of coarse some areas are hit hard and do need vast numbers reduced but still not one person in this day and age of camera phones, video cameras and still photography no one has been capturing these vast negative results of horses!
Lol.... Several posters have questioned whether or not they are feral. Not sure how you missed that.



It would be hypocritical for me to post a picture and claim it to be proof of feral horse damaging the environment, or vise versa. I'll have to wait for the current research to be compiled before claiming "Proof".


Because they are Feral and without Proof that any of these horses are direct decendants of pre-european contact herds, I consider this good enough reason to have them extirpated. I'll be content if the Feral horses are kept to an absolute minimum population without any expansion of range.


BTW You are quite adamant is having your questions answered but you have avoided answering any questions that I posed. Why is that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild&Free View Post
Arguing semantics is important, it's what some legal and logical battles boil down to. What does this word mean in this instance. English is a horrible language for this as one word can have many different meanings, as has been illustrated in this discussion. BTW, I like that we agree and disagree with each other consistently on this, good learning discussion.

This issue resides in a huge grey area within our society. Being an animal that can and does change the environment it lives in to suit it's own needs above the needs of every other animal, with a desire to still remain a part of that environment as it was before we arrived. We must make a choice to either maintain the status quo of human involvement in changing and adapting our environment or leaving it as it is and changing and adapting ourselves to the environment.

Walking Buffalo. That report, while from the US, does refer to Canadian horses, and corralation between the similar environments found in the US and here in Alberta can be included in this discussion. What I found most interesting was:



Now, the punctuation of this makes one think that the horses are controlling the invasive plants, but on second look they are promoting the spread of invasive plant species. IMO, invasive plants can be just as harmful, if not more, to an ecosystem then animals. It's added competition for food sources, one the native animal might not be able to eat and one the invasive species thrives upon.

You know, still haven't got an answer of how long it takes a population of feral animals to be considered wild animals. Would it be after x number of generations, or would it be after the ecosystem they were introduced found equilibrium again?

Wild animals move between ecosystems all the time, and we don't try to control that. Where I was from in BC, moose were not around at the turn of the century when settlers first arrived. Apparently there was a large fire somewhere to the north that opened up a passage that allowed moose to enter the area where they thrived until hunting drastically reduced their numbers in the mid 80s and 90s. There were large conservation efforts put in place to rebuild this invasive moose population. Why is this scenario different then the horses?
Do you really think that Moose never occupied this area in the past? That's like saying Elk never existed in Banff until the re-introductions....

Moose are Indigenous Wildlife, horses are feral Exotics.
  #530  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:50 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

So you say the introduction of horses by man as being negative.
But are we not influencing nature and changing the ecosystem for our own good with all the reintroduction of species and all of that jazz?
If a species has naturally moved from an area or died off naturally is not us putting animals back there for our own convineance no different? If we are going to target human actions affecting wildlife and the ecosystem shouldn't we address all aspects of it. Just because one affect humans by supplying more hunting opportunities and such doesn't make it more right than some people wanting horses there for their benifit.
  #531  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:52 AM
6tmile 6tmile is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 931
Default

With all the feather ruffling this topic has done, it makes me wonder what the big picture is. If the Ferals become protected, how much longer would it be before the whole area is deemed a "sanctuary". How long before hunting, trail riding etc will be shut down in the beloved YA HA Tinda. The only people that will be allowed in there are the ones that offer "Wild Horse Tours" Kinda makes you wonder.
__________________
CAVEAT EMPTOR!
  #532  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:57 AM
creeky creeky is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman View Post
I would assume right after we see elk used in large numbers with saddles on their backs??? Just because those elk are on farms, does not mean they are domesticated.

This thread is getting way off track with fellers shooting from the lip.

Please keep it on track. There is a pile of excellent information on it, and it would be a shame for it to be locked.


R.

Not so fast there Rman, and in the interests of continued sharing learning and debating on this most excellent thread to this point. Respectfully

Sure domestication of elk occurs- from Websters: domesticate 2.a) to tame (wild animals) and breed for the many purposes of man.

From Wikipedia: Domestication (from Latin domesticus) is the process where by a population of animals or plants is changed at the genetic level through a process of selection, in order to accentuate traits that benefit humans.


I've been on elk farms and they get out and many are habituated.
  #533  
Old 06-03-2013, 10:57 AM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
BTW You are quite adamant is having your questions answered but you have avoided answering any questions that I posed. Why is that?
Probably the same reason you avoid questions as well Buff! Why is that?
And which questions have I missed as im pretty adimant to try and address anything directed my way so please inform me of any ive missed and ill do my best to answer them.
And id like for you to do the same!

Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Do you really think that Moose never occupied this area in the past? That's like saying Elk never existed in Banff until the re-introductions....

Moose are Indigenous Wildlife, horses are feral Exotics.
But when animals naturally leave or die out of an area should we take the roll of mother nature and reintroduce elk or any animals? Are we not changing the ecosystem for our own benifit?
  #534  
Old 06-03-2013, 11:02 AM
Nait Hadya's Avatar
Nait Hadya Nait Hadya is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
Buff you post nothing new here! It's been said time and time again!!! No one has argued if they are feral or not!!! Your wasting your time!

You yourself used the damage they do as an excuse! I called you and TJ out on it over a year ago and said if there is so much damage then show people! You couldnt then and im sure wont now. The only way anything is going to get done is if people prove how harsh they are on the environment and wildlife. Just harping we will get it by teaching people that they are feral!! Well I hate to tell you all but a large number already know this and still want them there. Prove the negativity!! That's all that will sway the pro horse people that something should drastically be done!
Of coarse some areas are hit hard and do need vast numbers reduced but still not one person in this day and age of camera phones, video cameras and still photography no one has been capturing these vast negative results of horses!
You seem quite hung up on this proof which seems to be the only thread that is preventing the eradication of the feral horse. Based on your emotional rants and attacks on those who have a different opinion, based on observation, you are not likely to accept any proof as fact and will dismiss it. If you have traveled the areas where the horses winter, obviously not yaha tinda according to you, you would have seen for yourself the problems feral horses have created for our wildlife. Areas where elk once flourished are now populated year round with feral horses. The presence of the horse in these pastures is proof enough. The absence of elk on their traditional range is absolute proof.
__________________
  #535  
Old 06-03-2013, 11:04 AM
Pixel Shooter's Avatar
Pixel Shooter Pixel Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 4,318
Default

think were done here
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.