Shotgun pattern for ethical coyote kill

[Fordevr]

I got a new Stoeger M3500 shotgun to assist my Tikka T3 .204 Varmint when there are close range coyotes, because even a 32 Gr. Hornady vmax in .204 can make a pretty big entrance hole at 15-30 yards. I have shot some different loads on paper to see patterns and was wondering how many inches is acceptable for a pattern to make a ethical kill. I used Hornady BB mag coyote and Hornady 00 Mag coyote. I also want to try some #4 buck Hornady varmint but haven't had a chance yet. These pics are with 2 different chokes and 2 different loads. I see Les Johnson use both in his videos but I think he uses the BB more and in his videos he reaches 40-50 yards which I kinda think is a max distance for a shotgun, ethically. Thoughts...

[J0HN_R1]

I think that Les Johnson guy uses a full choke... Would tighten those patterns up a bit more, thus extending the range...

50 yds with the BB, 65 yds with the 00 buck.

[Fordevr]

I called Stoeger to ask if there is a difference between tungsten lead and steel and they said yes it is in a catagory by itself. They said that improved modified is the tightest to go with tungsten and the box of ammo says to use Imp cyl. or Modified.

I asked les and he said the versatite wad does the work but you need to pattern your shotgun. He said he used a modified on his last 2 doubles. The m3500 comes with 4 chokes but not the Imp. Mod....I might have to get the Imp. Modified just to see.

[tikka250]

The mod choke is probably your best bet if you are running the hornady stuff as it says right on the box that imp or mod is prefered. I have found the hornady coyote bb and 4s to be really good on coyotes.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by tikka250

The mod choke is probably your best bet if you are running the hornady stuff as it says right on the box that imp or mod is prefered. I have found the hornady coyote bb and 4s to be really good on coyotes.

Ya that's kinda what I figured. If you can make the 00 hit a good spot they would be great but they looks pretty sparse on paper even at 30 yrds.

[Fordevr]

I asked Les 2 questions about his favorite Hornady load and shot placement for shotgun and took a screenshot of his reply. Great guy always willing to answer questions from beginner to pro.

[J0HN_R1]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

I called Stoeger to ask if there is a difference between tungsten lead and steel and they said yes it is in a category by itself. They said that improved modified is the tightest to go with tungsten and the box of ammo says to use Imp cyl. or Modified.

I asked Les and he said the versatite wad does the work but you need to pattern your shotgun. He said he used a modified on his last 2 doubles. The m3500 comes with 4 chokes but not the Imp. Mod... I might have to get the Imp. Modified just to see.

That chart you posted says not to use the Imp Mod choke with steel... Wouldn't nickel plated be considered "steel" ?

[antmai]

I have always found in interesting-no sarcasm in the slightest-that people are worried about 'ethical' kills on varmint control.
Gophers are most commonly preferred to be hit with vapourizing(fast, ethical death) effect, yet 'yotes get special consideration. If not saving the pelt, I am curious why this animal doesn't just get vapourized as well. It is, in effect, not different than a gopher. It is a creature that has become decidedly inconvenient.
When the decision is made to kill out of 'convenience', I am curious why it matters how it dies. In this case, I am assuming the use of shotgun for land restriction reasons, but maybe I am mistaken. Otherwise, the badder the delivery of the round, the better.
I am miles and miles from animal rights stuff but I am also miles and miles from being a 'let's kill sh!t and cheer over it' kind of guy. I really am just curious.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by antmai

I have always found in interesting-no sarcasm in the slightest-that people are worried about 'ethical' kills on varmint control.
Gophers are most commonly preferred to be hit with vapourizing(fast, ethical death) effect, yet 'yotes get special consideration. If not saving the pelt, I am curious why this animal doesn't just get vapourized as well. It is, in effect, not different than a gopher. It is a creature that has become decidedly inconvenient.
When the decision is made to kill out of 'convenience', I am curious why it matters how it dies. In this case, I am assuming the use of shotgun for land restriction reasons, but maybe I am mistaken. Otherwise, the badder the delivery of the round, the better.
I am miles and miles from animal rights stuff but I am also miles and miles from being a 'let's kill sh!t and cheer over it' kind of guy. I really am just curious.

Most guys are trying to keep pelt damage to a minimum as hides are worth going after these days. The reasons for having a shotgun for yotes is when calling in heavy bush as coyotes come fast and close to the point where a rifle is no longer very usefull. Even if coyotes were not worth anything i would still use my 22-250 as it kills amazingly well. After the bullet explodes inside a yote the whole inner chest cavity is pretty much jello.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by antmai

I have always found in interesting-no sarcasm in the slightest-that people are worried about 'ethical' kills on varmint control.
Gophers are most commonly preferred to be hit with vapourizing(fast, ethical death) effect, yet 'yotes get special consideration. If not saving the pelt, I am curious why this animal doesn't just get vapourized as well. It is, in effect, not different than a gopher. It is a creature that has become decidedly inconvenient.
When the decision is made to kill out of 'convenience', I am curious why it matters how it dies. In this case, I am assuming the use of shotgun for land restriction reasons, but maybe I am mistaken. Otherwise, the badder the delivery of the round, the better.
I am miles and miles from animal rights stuff but I am also miles and miles from being a 'let's kill sh!t and cheer over it' kind of guy. I really am just curious.

I kill everything as quickly and humane as possible. Gophers flies mice and coyotes. (Mosquitos I let suffer jj) I do keep coyote pelts so we don't want big holes. The coyotes we kill are a danger to farm animals and pets. Shotgun is pelt friendly despite what many ppl including my self would think. Hornady makes a bb that is lead covered with tungsten coyote load I like and I'm also experimenting with other aftermarket chokes and lead. Just seeing how everything patterns. A week ago I could have got 2 if I had the shotgun, or would have had a better chance to get two I should say.lol

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by tikka250

Most guys are trying to keep pelt damage to a minimum as hides are worth going after these days. The reasons for having a shotgun for yotes is when calling in heavy bush as coyotes come fast and close to the point where a rifle is no longer very usefull. Even if coyotes were not worth anything i would still use my 22-250 as it kills amazingly well. After the bullet explodes inside a yote the whole inner chest cavity is pretty much jello.

I feel the same way about my .204. Just drops them in there tracks. It's amazing what happens when you take a .22 size bullet and speed it up to
Over 4000fps. Lol

[antmai]

Thanks fordevr. I am oblivious with regards to 'pelting'. I would not have thought that a shotgun could be pelt friendly....ever.
As for your comment about mosquitos....when I become dictator, they will all be killed off. Slowly. Wing by wing, leg by leg. Bats, dragonflies and spiders can find something else to munch on!

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by antmai

Thanks fordevr. I am oblivious with regards to 'pelting'. I would not have thought that a shotgun could be pelt friendly....ever.
As for your comment about mosquitos....when I become dictator, they will all be killed off. Slowly. Wing by wing, leg by leg. Bats, dragonflies and spiders can find something else to munch on!

Just do a search for "les johnson shotgun" on YouTube. He is pro at shotgun coyotes.

[BernieL]

Best I've seen are the federal buck shot with the flight control wad.
Shot out of a 20 in smooth bore gives a nice 8-10 inch group at 40 yards.
Make sure the box says flight control wad.
Law enforcement rounds have the same thing only tactical on the box and reduced recoil with only 8 pellets instead of 9
Hope that helps

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by BernieL

Best I've seen are the federal buck shot with the flight control wad.
Shot out of a 20 in smooth bore gives a nice 8-10 inch group at 40 yards.
Make sure the box says flight control wad.
Law enforcement rounds have the same thing only tactical on the box and reduced recoil with only 8 pellets instead of 9
Hope that helps

I'll definatly give that a try thx. Just trying to get my hands on some T size lead ammo and gonna try it in a turkey choke.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by J0HN_R1

That chart you posted says not to use the Imp Mod choke with steel... Wouldn't nickel plated be considered "steel" ?

Sry just saw this. The way I understand it is nickel plated comes in between steel and lead so I think it will be ok.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by BernieL

Best I've seen are the federal buck shot with the flight control wad.
Shot out of a 20 in smooth bore gives a nice 8-10 inch group at 40 yards.
Make sure the box says flight control wad.
Law enforcement rounds have the same thing only tactical on the box and reduced recoil with only 8 pellets instead of 9
Hope that helps

This, nice and tight and gets the job done.

[spoiledsaskhunter]

if you're selling them, the people who buy DO NOT like shotgun dogs.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter

if you're selling them, the people who buy DO NOT like shotgun dogs.

If you put big holes in them and are 5 yards away or closer, maybe...but if you use hornady coyote loads in bb it is one of the most pelt friendly loads you can get. Many other kinds work too. 00 buck, #4 buck also come in a Coyote load.

[Fordevr]

This guy is the master at 12gauge coyotes and Hornady had him help develope the hornady coyote load. he wouldn't shotgun em if it wrecked the fur.


https://youtu.be/hKTtAWWbsvo

[Dean2]

If you want something that will hold a REAL tight pattern to 60 yards, try a PatternMaster Extended Choke. I have one that came with a Beneli I bought. I patterned it the other day, it will pattern everything from lead target loads in #8,6,4 to Steel BB at 100% inside a 20" circle at 40 yards. That is WAY tighter than any normal full choke.

The PatterMaster is a zero contrition choke, effectively a cylinder bore, so you can shoot any kind of lead or steel, tungsten etc through it in 2 3/4,3 or 3 1/2". The only thing they don't handle is slugs because there are ears in the choke that strip the wad away as it leaves the barrel.

I have shot this choke on a pattern board and on trap. It completely smokes clays out past 50 yards with #8 target loads. I will be interested to see what it does on birds.

https://www.patternmaster.com/

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by Dean2

If you want something that will hold a REAL tight pattern to 60 yards, try a PatternMaster Extended Choke. I have one that came with a Beneli I bought. I patterned it the other day, it will pattern everything from lead target loads in #8,6,4 to Steel BB at 100% inside a 20" circle at 40 yards. That is WAY tighter than any normal full choke.

The PatterMaster is a zero contrition choke, effectively a cylinder bore, so you can shoot any kind of lead or steel, tungsten etc through it in 2 3/4,3 or 3 1/2". The only thing they don't handle is slugs because there are ears in the choke that strip the wad away as it leaves the barrel.

I have shot this choke on a pattern board and on trap. It completely smokes clays out past 50 yards with #8 target loads. I will be interested to see what it does on birds.

https://www.patternmaster.com/

Awesome info! Can you do me a huge favour? I phoned pattern master and the hornady coyote loads i shoot have a flight control wad. Can you let me know how the patternmaster does with this load in bb? I think you can get them at wholesale. I'd even buy the remainder of the box off you for full price. Looking for a choke for my Stoeger m3500 and they recommended patternmaster code black turkey but it is lead only I think so inbred something I can fire the nickel plated bb out of that is in that hornady load.

[Fordevr]

This is the load I was "refurring" too. Lol pun intended

[BernieL]

Try some federal buckshot with the flight control wad.
Keeps the pattern at 8-10 inches at 30 yards with no choke and a 18 inch barrel

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

If you put big holes in them and are 5 yards away or closer, maybe...but if you use hornady coyote loads in bb it is one of the most pelt friendly loads you can get. Many other kinds work too. 00 buck, #4 buck also come in a Coyote load.

It has more to do with the damage of the pellets cutting the hair rather than the holes is the hide.
I few larger pellets i.e. #4 buck or 0 buck is better than several smaller shot like BB.
Either way go for the head shot and hope you don't damage the grotzen.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

Awesome info! Can you do me a huge favour? I phoned pattern master and the hornady coyote loads i shoot have a flight control wad. Can you let me know how the patternmaster does with this load in bb? I think you can get them at wholesale. I'd even buy the remainder of the box off you for full price. Looking for a choke for my Stoeger m3500 and they recommended patternmaster code black turkey but it is lead only I think so inbred something I can fire the nickel plated bb out of that is in that hornady load.

I would but that is the other thing this particular choke won't shoot, flight control wads. If you want to shoot loads with flight control wads and get those results buy their Black Cloud series. Black Cloud uses flight control wads too and that series of choke is specifically made for that application.

12ga Mossberg 500, 535, 930 Black Cloud Full
Patternmaster Black Cloud FULL Choke is a constriction choke that is compatible with the Black Cloud Ammunition or any ammunition with a "Flight Control" wad. It has also proven to shoot well with other brands of shotgun ammunition as well. Patternmaster worked closely with Federal Premium® Ammunition company to design a tube that enhances their “flite control” wad inside Black Cloud and Prairie Storm ammunition. The design of Patternmaster’s Black Cloud tubes enables the use a Full constriction choke with steel shot because the tightest portion of constriction is located outside the barrel. Expect full patterns with an effective range from 30 to 60 yards.

Note: Testing done by Ballistics Performance has determined that ammunition with velocity of 1550fps and below will achieve the best results with Patternmaster Tubes. Ammunition containing flight control wads may not perform using a shotgun with a ported barrel.

Not for use with slug ammunition.

12ga Mossberg 500, 535, 930 Classic Long Range
Patternmaster's LONG RANGE tubes will extend out the end of your barrel 1 inch and has an effective range out to 60 yards. You will see a patterns similar to a Full constriction choke on paper with a 2 ¾" or 3" shell and a Modified with a 3 ½" shell, but because of the patented "stud ring" inside the tube, there is a much shorter shot string. This shorter shot string will allow more shot on target all at once so your down range energy is sure to kill instead of cripple. Our LONG RANGE tube can be used with steel or other non-toxic ammunition as well as lead, 2 ¾" or 3" or 3 ½" shells. Pick your favorite shot size to use which can range from 8 to BB Non-Toxic/Steel and Lead 8 to 000 Buck. LONG RANGE tubes are available in Black Ported or Unported, and Silver Ported. Patternmaster tubes are made of Carpenter Custom 630 (aircraft quality) 17-4ph stainless steel and are heat treated to the optimum level for best performance.

Note: Testing done by Ballistics Performance has determined that ammunition with velocity of 1550fps and below will achieve the best results with Patternmaster Tubes.

Not for use with ammunition containing flight control wad or slug ammunition.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

It has more to do with the damage of the pellets cutting the hair rather than the holes is the hide.
I few larger pellets i.e. #4 buck or 0 buck is better than several smaller shot like BB.
Either way go for the head shot and hope you don't damage the grotzen.

Agree to disagree. To be honest I have no idea, but I just assume Les Johnson would know...I know 17 kills in a day beats my record and I'm sure he sells his fur too.

[Fordevr]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I would but that is the other thing this particular choke won't shoot, flight control wads. If you want to shoot loads with flight control wads and get those results buy their Black Cloud series. Black Cloud uses flight control wads too and that series of choke is specifically made for that application.

Oh gotcha. I'll have to call them and get a recommendation. In the video I posted previously Les talks about lead getting bent out of shape into pancakes and hardly penetrating the skin. He also mentions he has killed them with every load,even #8 shot, and he found bb to be the most effective, so this is why I'm so hell bent on using the nickel plated load over lead. The nickel plating helps the bb hold there shape and give better penetration. Just need to see if there's a choke that can tighten up the loads more than the suggested improved cylinder or modified choke. Incidentally the improved cylinder was tighter than. my modified. Took a load apart and counted 77 bbs in a load. Now that I know that I can keep shooting and see how many pellets I can get on paper at various distances. 30 yards your gonna hammer em. 40 yards will most likely give similar results and then it gets tricky. At 50 yards the pellets get more spread out. I need them tighter before I will be comfortable shooting past 45 as of now.

[tchardy1972]

The only real reason that Les uses a shot gun is because that it makes great footage when they are close to the camera. A shotgun makes the moving hits easier when they are in your face. I've successfully hunted coyotes since before I could drive. I'm 35 now. I tried carrying a shotgun for a season and I can tell you that it's not worth it. The extra gun is a pain in the arse. It's far easier to stop them at 150 yards and make them dead.

I'm also a fur buyer and can tell you for a fact that a shotgun killed coyote does not sell as well as one shot with a 223. Most buyers will miss the shotgun damage but the auction fur graders don't. The pellets cut the hair, so instead of a single bullet cutting hair now you have 30+ bb's acting like a three year old with a pair of scissors.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by Fordevr

Agree to disagree. To be honest I have no idea, but I just assume Les Johnson would know...I know 17 kills in a day beats my record and I'm sure he sells his fur too.

I'm not saying he doesn't hits lots of dogs with shot, but maybe ask him what his shot gunned ones pay compared to the others.