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  #1  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:07 AM
bisonhunter bisonhunter is offline
 
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Default Honey we shrunk the sheep

I bet this article will stir the pot a little. What do you think?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/bi...ests-1.2459623
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  #2  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:11 AM
Donkey Oatey Donkey Oatey is offline
 
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Similar thing happened when we used to have the 3 pt mule deer requirement. Lots of monster fork bucks started to show up. We don't have the 3 pt mulie rule any more.
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Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
Attention Anti Hunters
Sit back
Pour yourself a tea

Watch us "sportsmen" attack each other and destroy ourselves from within.

From road hunters vs "real hunters" to bowhunters vs rifle hunters, long bows and recurves vs compound user to bow vs crossbow to white hunters vs Native hunters etc etc etc
.....

Enjoy the easy ride, anti hunters. Strange to me why we seem to be doing your job for you.

Excuse me while I go puke.
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:13 AM
hunt247 hunt247 is offline
 
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Go to Full curl rams or 9 or 10 year age limt for the next 30 years and see if that helps
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:22 AM
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HuntingAlberta HuntingAlberta is offline
 
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Look at the population and dynamics at the Cadomin. Could have something to do with their winter range and feed availability. Why not spend the time and money down in South/Central Alberta and increase the wintering ranges for the sheep. Potentially stopping cattle from pillaging on the Sheep's wintering range.

Could also be drastically changing the Hunter success on older rams by making everywhere a Ram is into a park. If Albertan hunters could hunt where we did in 1975 we probably would be killing older rams. Now we have to wait for any ram to leave the park.

I don't know about everybody else, but when I am out sheep hunting I am not even seeing many younger rams. Hunters shouldn't be killing the 2-6 year old rams so where are all of them? It doesnt seem like there are thousands of young 5 year old rams that all of a sudden dissapear when they are 6/7 due to hunters. I definitely think it is something deeper than simply Hunters killing them all.
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:45 AM
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coppercarbide coppercarbide is offline
 
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Very important point in this article. The horn size is not decreasing 'on average in the herd' (which would happen if the older animals were shot).
The 'average size of the horn of an X year old animal' is decreasing.

Important distinction. The study points out that we are basically selecting animals who have the genetics of fast growing horns, and taking them out of the gene pool.

So what happens is that there are rams with slow growing horns living to 8-9 before they are legal, and they are spreading their DNA far far more widely than a ram that is legal (and harvested) at 6.
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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coppercarbide coppercarbide is offline
 
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The same study also concluded that almost every single legal ram in the province was being harvested each year.

In a 'partial harvest' scenario (like with ungulates), the old, large horned sheep would still have the best breeding success, which would mean the gene pool is still selecting for large, fast growing horns.

However, when every single animal is harvested each year, there is no 'old, large horned sheep' to breed. So breeding just gets done by 'whatever is left alive', which are small, non-legal rams old enough to breed.
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  #7  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:49 AM
Dan_Andres Dan_Andres is offline
 
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Default Evidence is strong

Dr. Festa-Bianchet's work has now shown the same trends at multiple scales and in two provinces. The first work from Ran Mountain was criticized for being too local. So, he did what any good scientist does: he sought to replicate his results on independent data. Effects of hunting on horn growth were later established for BC, and now in AB again.

Time to accept the strong evidence, and time to do something about it. Or will we find other reasons to doubt the results??
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2013, 09:02 AM
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Grizzly Adams Grizzly Adams is offline
 
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Had to check the date on the article. Think the good doc has been making this claim for at least a dozen years. Must be looking for more research funding.

Grizz
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:32 PM
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Bassett Bassett is offline
 
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So why did they use a picture of a South Dakota ram on the side lol.
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2013, 01:03 PM
Ursus Ursus is offline
 
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Changes in horn size of harvested animals are a result of at least 5 interacting factors: genetics, environment (e.g., climate), population density, hunting regulations, and hunter selectivity.

This study examines only part of the issue. I'm guessing that many hunters in Alberta are being pushed for "how selective" they can be nowadays as compared to the 1980s: many of us are pushed for time. Are hunters just settling for a slightly smaller ram now? Who knows. I know many hunters that will take any legal ram.

The study also states (this isn't in the news story but the study itself) "our analysis does not establish that evolution of smaller horns caused the observed decline in both horn size and harvest of trophy rams, we suggest that intensive trophy hunting may have artificially selected for a decrease in horn growth rate."

An increase in the number of sheep or a change in climate over some segment of the study could produce exactly the same effect but the study seems a tad weak on this point. I'd hold off on pulling the alarm bell just yet: it may have nothing to do with hunting at all.
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  #11  
Old 12-11-2013, 02:23 PM
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walking buffalo walking buffalo is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey View Post
Similar thing happened when we used to have the 3 pt mule deer requirement. Lots of monster fork bucks started to show up. We don't have the 3 pt mulie rule any more.
And when the three point rule was abandoned the big four points came back.

There was no genetic loss.




Festa-Bianchet has a habit of having a theory and then manipulating the data to fit. Poor science....

This poor science is a reason why there is a new direction for Sheep research in Alberta.




RESILIENT BIGHORN SHEEP
PROJECT

Newsletter # 1 -November 2013





The overall goal of the Resilient Bighorn Sheep
Project is to develop mechanisms, procedures and
management policies that ensure and maintain the
health of natural ecosystems and native wildlife
populations, specifically Bighorn Sheep, in the
Northern Rocky Mountains. The project area
includes all Bighorn Sheep range from the Red Deer
River drainage north to the Narraway River in British
Columbia, with the exception of Ram Mountain.

The project was initiated by Jeff Kneteman (Alberta
Environment and Sustainable Resources
Development (ESRD) – Wildlife Branch) as part of
his graduate thesis program in the Department of
Biological Sciences, University of Alberta
(supervised by David Hik).

This research is necessary because the
environments used by Bighorns, and other wildlife,
are changing, both through intensifying land use and
climate warming.

Our recent efforts are focused on determining how
many animals make up the basic population and the
extent of their natural range. We are focused on
analysis of composition (number of rams and ewes),
lamb survival, and seasonal or long-term
movements, and how these factors may affect the
overall health and sustainability of the population.

The most recent Ecological Resilience and
Bighorn Sheep workshop was held at the
University of Alberta on June 3, 2013. It brought
together people from ESRD-Wildlife Branch, the
University of Alberta (U of A) and interested groups
including the Alberta Fish and Game Association,
Wild Sheep Foundation, Alberta Professional
Outfitters Society and Safari Club International
(Northern Alberta Branch).

Jeff provided an overview and background to the
project and a summary of his research-to-date.
Analysis of the 40-year Bighorn Sheep census
dataset indicates that the population has been
relatively stable over the entire Northern Rockies.

However, at the Census Zone and Wildlife
Management Unit scale, it appears that rams and
ewes are leaving some areas and congregating in
others, in particular modified habitat associated with
mining in the Cadomin area. Lamb survivability is
also variable at a regional scale.

Two key questions are:


What enables populations to tolerate or benefit
from environmental change and what are the
limits to this tolerance?

How can we manage landscape disturbances to
be consistent with Bighorn Sheep population
“health”?
For more information contact Jeff Kneteman: jeff.kneteman@gov.ab.ca


Four Research Topics Were Identified

1. Demography of Sheep Populations – This
work takes advantage of existing census data
collection and is ongoing.
2. Genetic Structure of the Population – Fecal
samples were collected throughout the Northern
Rockies Bighorn Sheep range during the winter
2012-13 in order to develop new techniques for
determining genetic structure of the population.
This analysis will indicate whether there are distinct
genetic groups within the larger population and
whether population structure differs between
males and females. For example, is it possible to
tell a Willmore Bighorn Sheep from a Clearwater
Bighorn Sheep? Do genetic groupings of females
occupy smaller areas than genetic groupings of
males? If so, we may be able to trace the
movements of individuals from these distinct
populations into other areas. There is no existing
data that currently allows us to do this.
David Coltman’s lab (U of A) is responsible for
analyzing these fecal samples. During summer
2013, Beth Adamowicz began to develop DNA
extraction protocols for optimizing this process. In
October, Dr. Jamie Gorrell joined the project and
during the next months will continue the DNA
extraction protocols, complete the genotyping of
samples and begin the main analyses of this data.
At present we have 908 faecal group samples and
128 blood or muscle samples from 35 sites across
the Northern Rockies. We intend to collect more
faecal group samples from 4-5 sites west of the
Sulphur River and North of the Sheep Creek in
winter 2013/14; and expect to obtain muscle, blood
or hair samples from bighorns in the British
Columbia portion of the study area.

The Government of Alberta has supported the
collection of additional fecal samples through its
biennial Bighorn Sheep census efforts and funded
development of techniques to extract DNA from
fecal material.

3. Horn Growth Analysis – The annuli
circumference and length of Bighorn Sheep horns
can be used to infer the environmental conditions
experienced by sheep during their lives. When
compiled, this information will give us some insight
into the Bighorn habitat conditions dating back
several decades. The annuli analysis of these
horns will be used to construct an environmental
timeline in much the same way tree rings and deep
glacier ice cores are used to reconstruct prehistoric
climates. For horns to be useful to this effort the
year and approximate location of death must be
known.
Initial measurements will be made on the Wildlife
Branch’s inventory and horns offered by private
parties in the province. During fall 2013 a total of
147 horns held by Wildlife Branch were identified
as suitable for measurements. There is need for
private parties to make horns available for
measurement of annuli. We expect to work with
several groups to locate and measure horns.
Future workshops will be held to train individuals in
the Yukon Protocols for determining annuli
characteristics so that all measurements are
standardized. Letters will be sent to various clubs
soliciting access to these trophy horns. This task
will be undertaken by U of A and private partners.

4. Habitat/Landscape Evaluation – Satellite data
provides an opportunity to classify and map habitats
in the Northern Rockies. Appropriate images will be
identified, acquired and analyzed. Comparison of
these maps may give us some insight into the
changing vegetation conditions in the region and
their suitability for Bighorn Sheep. A U of A student,
with expertise in remote sensing and GIS, will be
recruited to undertake this task beginning in 2014.
Future Funding

During the workshop, there was considerable
discussion about potential sources of future funding
for these research efforts. Funds generated by the
Minister’s Permit were identified as one source,
since much of the revenue generated by a Minister’s
special permit is to be directed to management and
research on the species to which the tag applies.

Other sources include provincial agencies and
private organizations. Support for the genetic
analysis is being sought from the Alberta
Conservation Association grants program.

Broadening Participation

Workshop attendees recognized that other parties
should be included in these discussions. These
might include, but are not limited to, First Nations,
conservation groups, provincial and national parks
agencies, and policy makers. These groups will be
approached over the next few months to determine
their interest.

Communication

The U of A will take responsibility for facilitating the
communications among the interested parties.
Initially this will be done through a newsletter. The
project will eventually host a website where results
and other information can be shared.

For more information contact Jeff Kneteman: jeff.kneteman@gov.ab.ca
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:52 PM
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fast_pass88 fast_pass88 is offline
 
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Thanks for the input WB, interesting info.
How long will this study take? Is it a fairly long term project?
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2014, 09:21 PM
Scopithorne Scopithorne is offline
 
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Posts: 102
Default Rams

U know they keep saying how sheep are getting smaller but how many old rams do you see that aren't legal just saying maybe they should look at changing the rules to make older rams that have broomed and are no longer legal Maybe. They should make it legal to take these animals
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:51 AM
Leeper Leeper is offline
 
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If it could be proven, beyond doubt, that current hunting practice was harming sheep genetics, there would still be sheep hunters who desired perpetuation of the current system. If it could be proven, beyond doubt, that current practice would eliminate sheep hunting in large areas in the future, there would still be sheep hunters who desired perpetuation of the current system.
Just because a report says something we don't want to hear, it is not necessarily wrong. Leeper
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