Solution for Feral Horse Invasion

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by Kauna

does the term and meaning FERAL , actually sink home . cry me a river . Read your own note..good grief ..Horses are devasting in all environments . Get the horses outa the west so we can relocate the elk ..tks

My point friend, is that replacing feral horses with elk as you suggest has been tried with "devastating" effect. I have no love for feral horses but your suggestion won't fly.

[Kauna]

hi

[Don K]

I've been charged by a stud horse west of Sundre bow hunting. That was close to 20 years ago. If I knew then what I know now that horse woulda had an arrow in it...

[Nait Hadya]

....Does any one have opinions for a solution?

Shoot them where they stand....and leave them there. Shouldn't have a problem getting volunteers.

[evil72]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

My point friend, is that replacing feral horses with elk as you suggest has been tried with "devastating" effect. I have no love for feral horses but your suggestion won't fly.

Thankyou, 12DLT for waying in on the touchy topic that I brought up!
FWIW. Elk herds in the hundred of thousands if not millions, roamed the prairies along with the buffalo. That is till commercial hunting and westward expansoin came about, and pushed the elk west and north west!
Another thing is the thread was what to do about the F. Horse in our west country not the Elk in their native habitat in the British Block!! That is esasily rectified by the Gov't not being so stingy with tag quotas in those WMU's. Or better yet transplant a whole bunch to the Foothills WMU where the Elk #s are so low. I degress. Something no one has mentioned was the impact that F. Horses have on our almost non exsistant Moose population. F. Horses eat a lot of Moose Browse as well.
OH,BTW. The use of the word Mustang is only used to romanticise the creature, we call the F. Horse. The F. Horse is not the sleek, fast, graceful and well put together animal, that the Spanish Mustang is. Any F. Horses I have seen,(in the 100's), are blocky, roman nosed, and imbred. Hence the block headed roman nosed appearce!!! Regardless of how they look they are a problem!! Regards:Evil72

[Flatlandliver]

Hey Evil, good thread. Weird that it would go a little sideways.
I don't think anyone is denying that those ferals are doing lots of damage. Problem is there will never be a cull with firearms. SPCA lobby is too strong. Horses are pretty sacred to a lot of Albertans. section 444 is a cruelty to animals deal I think, not horse thieving. See post 53 for the link to srd's plan for them. Only went to the Suffield stuff when it was mentioned by a poster as the way to deal with the western ferals, sure went bad out east trying to mess with things. More elk tags isn't the only answer there either, more areas need to be opened up for hunting on the base. (my two cents).

[fish gunner]

I dissagree the hourses do little or no dammage if one does research , one can find the horse has been in the west prior to the movements of the white settlers all across the west . In short the horse landed with the spanish in 1460's and moved north and west in front of the settler . If one looks up the kootanei horse you will find the first white contact found horse numbers in the millions. In 1850. So the elk ,the moose and the horse have all coexisted long before any here's ancestors got this far west unless native. Nice try thouhg guys we've been over this a few times in the past so put up some evidence of damage or of the wildies negatively affecting wild life or stop the leak of the hot air.

[Desert Eagle]

I think someone needs to do up a petition to reduce the number of feral horses and get it into SRD. Hopefully with enough signatures they will grant the ok to do the right thing......

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I dissagree the hourses do little or no dammage if one does research , one can find the horse has been in the west prior to the movements of the white settlers all across the west . In short the horse landed with the spanish in 1460's and moved north and west in front of the settler . If one looks up the kootanei horse you will find the first white contact found horse numbers in the millions. In 1850. So the elk ,the moose and the horse have all coexisted long before any here's ancestors got this far west unless native. Nice try thouhg guys we've been over this a few times in the past so put up some evidence of damage or of the wildies negatively affecting wild life or stop the leak of the hot air.

You sure have a way of dropping apples wherever you go.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

You sure have a way of dropping apples wherever you go.

Do your resarch palliser expidition I believe. First geological survey of the 49º. 1850 odds.

[ovis40]

Originally Posted by Desert Eagle

I think someone needs to do up a petition to reduce the number of feral horses and get it into SRD. Hopefully with enough signatures they will grant the ok to do the right thing......

Why do you want someone to do it for you? Grab the horse by the ear and do it yourself.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Do your resarch palliser expidition I believe. First geological survey of the 49º. 1850 odds.

I suggest you do your research first.


I'll pay Potty your debt if you can prove that the Palliser expedition or any "first white contact" came across millions of horses.


If you fail to prove your claim, then you have to "stop the leak of the hot air".


Deal?

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I suggest you do your research first.


I'll pay Potty your debt if you can prove that the Palliser expedition or any "first white contact" came across millions of horses.


If you fail to prove your claim, then you have to "stop the leak of the hot air".


Deal?

Done "Anecdotal evidence shows that in 1776, herds of mustangs were kept by Assiniboines in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. By 1790, Alberta tribes had acquired mustangs from Shoshoni and under two decades later, there were extensive herds in the Kootenays, estimated at two million in total! Wild herds served as stock for Natives, and escapees often replenished them." From a Google search wild horse numbers at first contact.
Anything else .

[Floyd Texas]

Did anyone else notice the horse population really explode west of sundre a few
years back after the last hay shortage?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Done "Anecdotal evidence shows that in 1776, herds of mustangs were kept by Assiniboines in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. By 1790, Alberta tribes had acquired mustangs from Shoshoni and under two decades later, there were extensive herds in the Kootenays, estimated at two million in total! Wild herds served as stock for Natives, and escapees often replenished them." From a Google search wild horse numbers at first contact.
Anything else .

Yup. provide a link.....

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Yup. provide a link.....

How would I do that , ill see what I can do on my own .
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/ma05/indepth/
Wa-la.

[twofifty]

2 million horses in the Kootenay, ya right. 2 million horses there wouldn't have been a blade of grass left !

Have you seen the lay of the land out here? There's barely enough place for the deer and elk as it is.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by twofifty

2 million horses in the Kootenay, ya right. 2 million horses there wouldn't have been a blade of grass left !

Have you seen the lay of the land out here? There's barely enough place for the deer and elk as it is.

Annual north south migration of the kootenai people could explain adequate feed , pallicer noted the kootenai horse were of a better quality than many of the plains horse. The people were unkempt the horses however were of a high standard.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

How would I do that , ill see what I can do on my own .
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/ma05/indepth/
Wa-la.

You did fine putting up a link.

You do realize that the article you quoted made a grave exaggeration?



I'll see your un-referenced anecdotal evidence, and raise you a B.C. government/research society funded paper.


Range Use in the East Kootenay
http://trench-er.com/public/library/...t-kootenay.pdf

"Historical Horses
Some scientists believe that horses were present west of the Rockies by 1680 and
introduced to the Flatheads and Nez Perce between 1720 and 1730. The Kootenay
Indians definitely had horses by 1792. Peter Fidler, Hudson Bay Company surveyor, met
Kootenay Indians in the Alberta foothills in 1792 who were trading horses with the
Peigans but the size of horse populations in the Trench from 1800 to 1900 is not known.
James Hector of the Palliser Expedition encountered Kootenays near Columbia Lake in
1859 and reported, “They had a band of about 500 horses…” By the 1880s, the natives
at Joseph’s Prairie (Cranbrook) had nearly 2,000 horses and 500 head of cattle, and
natives on both sides of the International Boundary Line were pasturing 5000 horses on
the Tobacco Plains. It is difficult to determine the extent and magnitude of ecological
change attributable to horses in the Trench but historical numbers suggest they could
have had an early impact on the range resource.


Feral Horses
Feral horses have been in the Trench since at least 1800 and probably earlier. In
1809, David Thompson reported that he “spent time chasing after some of the feral
horses that grazed the foothills above the lakes” [likely Lake Windermere and Columbia
Lake]. According to the Kootenays, these horses once belonged to members of their tribe
who died from smallpox in the 1780s.
During the 1940s and 1950s powered farm and logging equipment replaced most of
the horses used by these industries and many horses were turned loose on the range. At
the same time, ranchers were increasing their cattle herds, taking advantage of the
abundant range created by fires. By then, it was apparent that range condition was
deteriorating and the Forest Service decided to remove about 5,000 feral horses from the
range. Roundup corrals were constructed and some horses were trapped and sold. Others
were too wild and were shot on the range. By the early 1950s, most of the feral horses
were gone, their place taken by domestic cattle and elk, and a new era in range relations
in the East Kootenay began to unfold."

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

You did fine putting up a link.

You do realize that the article you quoted made a grave exaggeration?



I'll see your un-referenced anecdotal evidence, and raise you a B.C. government/research society funded paper.


Range Use in the East Kootenay
http://trench-er.com/public/library/...t-kootenay.pdf

"Historical Horses
Some scientists believe that horses were present west of the Rockies by 1680 and
introduced to the Flatheads and Nez Perce between 1720 and 1730. The Kootenay
Indians definitely had horses by 1792. Peter Fidler, Hudson Bay Company surveyor, met
Kootenay Indians in the Alberta foothills in 1792 who were trading horses with the
Peigans but the size of horse populations in the Trench from 1800 to 1900 is not known.
James Hector of the Palliser Expedition encountered Kootenays near Columbia Lake in
1859 and reported, “They had a band of about 500 horses…” By the 1880s, the natives
at Joseph’s Prairie (Cranbrook) had nearly 2,000 horses and 500 head of cattle, and
natives on both sides of the International Boundary Line were pasturing 5000 horses on
the Tobacco Plains. It is difficult to determine the extent and magnitude of ecological
change attributable to horses in the Trench but historical numbers suggest they could
have had an early impact on the range resource.


Feral Horses
Feral horses have been in the Trench since at least 1800 and probably earlier. In
1809, David Thompson reported that he “spent time chasing after some of the feral
horses that grazed the foothills above the lakes” [likely Lake Windermere and Columbia
Lake]. According to the Kootenays, these horses once belonged to members of their tribe
who died from smallpox in the 1780s.
During the 1940s and 1950s powered farm and logging equipment replaced most of
the horses used by these industries and many horses were turned loose on the range. At
the same time, ranchers were increasing their cattle herds, taking advantage of the
abundant range created by fires. By then, it was apparent that range condition was
deteriorating and the Forest Service decided to remove about 5,000 feral horses from the
range. Roundup corrals were constructed and some horses were trapped and sold. Others
were too wild and were shot on the range. By the early 1950s, most of the feral horses
were gone, their place taken by domestic cattle and elk, and a new era in range relations
in the East Kootenay began to unfold."

Hay its a proof lol. Ok lets say the horse was here prior to the whites in large numbers."John McDougal, a missionary, in his journals, dated in the 1850’s, documents wild horses and moose being preyed upon by wolves in the areas between the North Saskatchewan and Oldman Rivers. The North West Mounted Police, upon coming to this area to bring law and order estimated there were thousands of wild horses in the areas that they settled."

[evil72]

Hello: Fishgunner
No one denies that horses were here before the whites(as you like to call them)!
That is because the Spanish were here before "the Whites". According to "History Book's" too. Even though there is proof that the Vikings were here first, North America, that is. But believe what you want! It is a chicken & egg thing. Also do you really think that the land could support two million horses,+a few million bison, and a few million elk? Really??? But thank you for your unbiased input!
Regards: Evil72
Fish Lots & Fish Well:Evil72

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by evil72

Hello: Fishgunner
No one denies that horses were here before the whites(as you like to call them)!
That is because the Spanish were here before "the Whites". According to "History Book's" too. Even though there is proof that the Vikings were here first, North America, that is. But believe what you want! It is a chicken & egg thing. Also do you really think that the land could support two million horses,+a few million bison, and a few million elk? Really??? But thank you for your unbiased input!
Regards: Evil72
Fish Lots & Fish Well:Evil72

The bison it would appear did not range west of the continental divide . Yes by the accounts of 1850 (bison numbers being lowerd) the western great plains did support massive herds of horse ,elk and bison . of course all of the above getting pushed to extinction shortly after.
My point basically is a few hundred to even a few thousand wild horse in the foot hills in reality offer little to no threat to our game species. As it would appear the they have coexisted for at least as long as any feral human (non-native ) could claim to have wittnessed.
Fish well E72.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

The bison it would appear did not range west of the continental divide . Yes by the accounts of 1850 (bison numbers being lowerd) the western great plains did support massive herds of horse ,elk and bison . of course all of the above getting pushed to extinction shortly after.
My point basically is a few hundred to even a few thousand wild horse in the foot hills in reality offer little to no threat to our game species. As it would appear the they have coexisted for at least as long as any feral human (non-native ) could claim to have wittnessed.
Fish well E72.

You lost the deal, pay up. It's time for you to "stop the leak of hot air".


Read the paper I linked. It talks about how a few thousand horses in an area caused environmental damage.


The Alberta government would love to reduce the number of feral horses. Their delay in taking action is only due to an outcry from an international lobbying effort.

[Mhunter51]

Fish gunner- you call the escaped nags ' wild horses ' yet call all humans non-native and ( your words )" feral humans ". I guess you forgot about all the native and inuit people that have been here since before anyone. Are you one of the two people that believes horses were not wiped out millions of years ago? Get real.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Mhunter51

Fish gunner- you call the escaped nags ' wild horses ' yet call all humans non-native and ( your words )" feral humans ". I guess you forgot about all the native and inuit people that have been here since before anyone. Are you one of the two people that believes horses were not wiped out millions of years ago? Get real.

I fully agree that some of the wild herds have a segment of escape/relesed stock in the population. Im simply pointing out the horse from our point of view have existed since the first settlers arrived. I also agree that the northamerica native horse became extinct.
I find it peculiar that we (non native) people decide a species with a longer history than our own is in some way not wild.
WB I posted a link supporting my position , ie I didn't make up the position of the high population of horses at the first contact with the western natives. I fully agree that its not peer reviewed and simply anecdoteal however it is based on some form of evidence. so the horse predates our ancestors arrival imo gives the horse every right to roam freely . I will also suggest stock herds (cattle) impact our game species more than the free ranging horse. We dont see an outcry to remove cattle from the foothills. In previous threads on this subject members posted pics of game living along the free range horse.

[evil72]

Hello: Fishgunner
Regardless of how long F. Horses have been out west, and who is to blame,(most of whom are dead now), is not the debate! The question was to come up with a humane solution to the existing problem! FWIW! Humanity lives indirect contact with terrorist. But does not mean we should have to.
The Bovines that graze in our precious Wild Lands is a whole other problem on its own. To be dealt with in another thread. ?????
Regards: Evil72
Fish Lots & Fish Well:Evil72
P.S.: Good thing F. Horses do not eat Fish! eh?

[Ronji]

They both brought a lot more to this board than 99% of the people on here.[/QUOTE]

X2 Made for "some" interesting reads.

[Caleb]

Sorry Fish Gunner, Walking Buffalo supplied a real source, with real facts behind it and you linked to a Canadian Geographic article with some unsourced factoids that are probably just journalistic embellishment. His research carries more weight.

His link suggests thousands to perhaps tens of thousands of wild horses in BC in the past, many held by Indian tribes, so not actually wild anymore.

If you want feral horses to be treated with the same respect as native elk, then the solution is simple: define a management goal and base it on science. We know the feral horse numbers are increasing and they are able to rapidly increase in a short time frame, they suffer very low predation rates (especially adults), and cohabit with elk in many areas where elk populations are struggling to stay stable or are declining. If we can define a purpose and a reason for the feral horse population to exist, and at what number, sensible management can continue.

AFGA has proposed a number for ferals, but horse-lovers have protested against ANY management whatsoever. So who is being more responsible with our wildlife?

[fish gunner]

Who knew it already exists , but it takes effort . So the plan ,the means and the license for free range horse control is fully in place.snap .
http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...s/default.aspx
Any one .

[Red Bullets]

I have read that the plains tribes of the west acquired the horse in the 1640's.
Everything else has been accurately clarified in previous posts. (according to written history)

So if it is 2 or 3 hundred years , When is a species considered adapted and integrated into the ecology of a natural ecosystem? Or is it a invasive species for eternity?
There are hundred of species of every sort that were introduced to the north american continent since the spanish, but there are also many species that were introduced via the Bering land bridge in the last 30 thousand years.


IMO-Not everything should be measured by human standards. It seems that so many things measured to mans standards are the only things out of whack.

Could it be the wolf and cougar population is on the rise to create a balance maybe?
No, by mans logic, too many wolves, we can tolerate 4000 but not 7000. Too many cougar, lets kill so many.
Then after they kill a 3rd of the wolves and cougars there will be too many horses, elk and moose , so we might as well open up more tags for man to kill em off instead.

I guess I am just saying leave things alone. Everything has its place if it can adapt to this climate. We don't have to try to conquer and control every living creature.

______________________

Look back at our struggle for freedom
Trace our present day’s strength to it’s source
And you’ll find that man’s pathway to glory
Is strewn with the bones of a horse ..

written unknown