Solution for Feral Horse Invasion

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Just have an open season with tag system similar to CWD..


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...7009/?page=all

Now this is the right approach! The horse tags might become highly sought after once more people tried it.

I dated a girl with immigrant Dutch parents so got to try horsemeat a few times. Zero complaints.

Realistically though, this will never happen. Hopefully the government gets its act together on this file, re-instates the roundups and controls that population by the only method that has ever worked.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

So with your way of thinking, any species that is classified as non-native to Alberta should be discarded like trash ?

Idealisms like these will open a rather large can of worms, I am sure you are aware of many species that are not native to Alberta... For example, the classic Ring Neck Pheasant, or the Grey Partridge ( Hungarian ) for a start... These species are native to Asia and Europe and have only been present in Alberta for near 100 or so years...

Guess with a set that clang as you say, we should kill them all and include other non-native species in the war on responsibility ?

You forgot whitetail deer ... a non-alberta native, invasive species...

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Caleb

Good luck with that Fish Gunner. I believe it was the 2012 roundup where the horse-lovers raised a stink and protested and shut it down.

A quote from an AO article (October 2013) from Bob Henderson of Wild Horses of Alberta (WHOA) in regards to the cancelled 2012 roundup; "There was such a public uproar. For good reason. We knew that most of the horses had to be slaughtered."

So the horse-lovers are against ANY management or harvest of this population. That is what we (outdoorsmen and women) are up against. You seem open to sensible management, and that's great. But the vast majority of the horse-lover side is made up of poorly-educated, emotional, non-rational, non-outdoorspeople living in cities. They don't want proper wildlife management policies applied and they don't give a @#$@%# about elk or moose or anyone else. Careful who you ally yourself with!

They simply don't want the pretty ponies killed, but they sure as heck don't want to pay for the trouble these beasts cause.

Why is it in this great country that it seems all the uneducated people can whine and get there way?

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Why is it in this great country that it seems all the uneducated people can whine and get there way?

sad very sad ..you have an educated point of view ..stik it

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Kauna

sad very sad ..you have an educated point of view ..stik it

(So the horse-lovers are against ANY management or harvest of this population. That is what we (outdoorsmen and women) are up against. You seem open to sensible management, and that's great. But the vast majority of the horse-lover side is made up of poorly-educated, emotional, non-rational, non-outdoorspeople living in cities. They don't want proper wildlife management policies applied and they don't give a @#$@%# about elk or moose or anyone else. Careful who you ally yourself with!

They simply don't want the pretty ponies killed, but they sure as heck don't want to pay for the trouble these beasts cause.)

Should I spell it out better?

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Exactly what happened? ? Not much of a discussion on that point . It s that folks believe the horses are tame release which is untrue.

Then where did the horse come from? It is NOT a native species. As for the Whitetail comment, they followed the farmers BUT are a native species.

As for tame release a large number were released by the RCMP, forestry, miners etc. not all came over on the boat. Had they all come over on the boat they would be a much finer specimen then the ones in the posted pictures, those old nags would be best suited for pulling a plow and even at that you would be embarrassed.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Then where did the horse come from? It is NOT a native species. As for the Whitetail comment, they followed the farmers BUT are a native species.

As for tame release a large number were released by the RCMP, forestry, miners etc. not all came over on the boat. Had they all come over on the boat they would be a much finer specimen then the ones in the posted pictures, those old nags would be best suited for pulling a plow and even at that you would be embarrassed.

The horse is native , the native horse died out about the time man first showed up in NA. our current horse showed up with the spanish and were moved by man acroos the great plains north and west. The horse of the plains people as noted by palliser were much like the stock we see out west. The kootaney indians raised the better stock you speak of. Somwhere in the middle is what we have today . If you take the time to research the free roaming horse of the americas you will see they have from a non native human pov always been here. One reference I do find is that horses noth of nordeeg were considerd tame release . However my own sources point to wild stock in that area prior to settlement or very close to.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

The horse is native , the native horse died out about the time man first showed up in NA. our current horse showed up with the spanish and were moved by man acroos the great plains north and west. The horse of the plains people as noted by palliser were much like the stock we see out west. The kootaney indians raised the better stock you speak of. Somwhere in the middle is what we have today . If you take the time to research the free roaming horse of the americas you will see they have from a non native human pov always been here. One reference I do find is that horses noth of nordeeg were considerd tame release . However my own sources point to wild stock in that area prior to settlement or very close to.

This explains much about your position. But it also shows some misinformation on your part.

The foothills horses we are dealing with today are a 100 year old mix of abandoned domestic horses. The original feral horses were escaped and abandoned stock from logging and guiding operations west of Sundre area in the early 1900s. Those would have been a mix of recent European imported bloodlines and perhaps some Indian horse. The Indian horses were themselves not considered wild, as they were domesticated by a certain group themselves.

So the first of the feral horses that we are discussing in Alberta's foothills were descended from completely domestic stock. Your "sources" with inside info on pre-existing wild horses seems a little questionable.

You seem to think these horses are being treated unfairly, and should be considered equal with elk, moose, and other wildlife. Which seems odd, when almost everyone on this forum would view the phrase "too many elk" as a great problem to have, but "too many horses" as a major management headache.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by Caleb

This explains much about your position. But it also shows some misinformation on your part.

The foothills horses we are dealing with today are a 100 year old mix of abandoned domestic horses. The original feral horses were escaped and abandoned stock from logging and guiding operations west of Sundre area in the early 1900s. Those would have been a mix of recent European imported bloodlines and perhaps some Indian horse. The Indian horses were themselves not considered wild, as they were domesticated by a certain group themselves.

So the first of the feral horses that we are discussing in Alberta's foothills were descended from completely domestic stock. Your "sources" with inside info on pre-existing wild horses seems a little questionable.

You seem to think these horses are being treated unfairly, and should be considered equal with elk, moose, and other wildlife. Which seems odd, when almost everyone on this forum would view the phrase "too many elk" as a great problem to have, but "too many horses" as a major management headache.

Good job!

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Caleb

This explains much about your position. But it also shows some misinformation on your part.

The foothills horses we are dealing with today are a 100 year old mix of abandoned domestic horses. The original feral horses were escaped and abandoned stock from logging and guiding operations west of Sundre area in the early 1900s. Those would have been a mix of recent European imported bloodlines and perhaps some Indian horse. The Indian horses were themselves not considered wild, as they were domesticated by a certain group themselves.

So the first of the feral horses that we are discussing in Alberta's foothills were descended from completely domestic stock. Your "sources" with inside info on pre-existing wild horses seems a little questionable.

You seem to think these horses are being treated unfairly, and should be considered equal with elk, moose, and other wildlife. Which seems odd, when almost everyone on this forum would view the phrase "too many elk" as a great problem to have, but "too many horses" as a major management headache.

So where did the horses in there thousands macdougal and the first police reported in the 1890' come from. Now were at 120 yrs and the horse was here when palliser reports plains horse people In the central alberta area 1850 odds now were at 160 yrs . See where this is going . So when did the horse dissapear to be reintroduced. ??. My out laws were some of the very first settlers in the nordegg area . They report free roaming horse roughly 1880-1890. So yes there are wild release in the poulation , no info can be found on my part to suggest the horse does not predates us white folks ,unless the horse found from Manitoba to the kootaney valley just happened to give the foothills a miss. Not very lightly.from Wikipedia
About 200 years ago, 3 million wild horses roamed North America. Fewer than 8,000 wild horses remain today. By 1965, only four smallherds*of horses survived– three in British Columbia and one in*Siffleur Wilderness Areanear Calgary.[1]*In 1974, the official wild horse population in Alberta was only around 1,000 due to horse hunting on*crown land.[1]*In 1993, Alberta introduced the*Horse Capture Plan*which regulates the capture of wild horses, with between 25 and 35 horses being captured each year.[2]

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

So with your way of thinking, any species that is classified as non-native to Alberta should be discarded like trash ?

Idealisms like these will open a rather large can of worms, I am sure you are aware of many species that are not native to Alberta... For example, the classic Ring Neck Pheasant, or the Grey Partridge ( Hungarian ) for a start... These species are native to Asia and Europe and have only been present in Alberta for near 100 or so years...

Guess with a set that clang as you say, we should kill them all and include other non-native species in the war on responsibility ?

My only problem with the feral horse issue is that people seem to be giving them some sort of protection because they are horses. If someone wants to make use of a feral horse ( for food or what ever other purpose) I think they should be able to. Just like the rings necks the Hungarian partrage. If they are causing issues I don't think they should be excluded from harvesting just because they are cute. No other invasive spiecies has the protection a feral horse has. Not to my knowledge.

[evil72]

Hello: Outdoors Persons.
Thanks, to every one who have contributed. No really!
Fishgunner seems to me that the Spanish would take offence to being considered non whites. also there was European traders out west before a lot of your recorded history. As most of these men were illiterate. You also keep bringing up the fact that you can get a license to gather up F. Horses.That is not true because, Horse lovers got that shut down! Also what is the difference in capturing them to go to slaughter, or just shooting them for meat. Shooting on site seems more humane than the stress of capture and hauling a 100 miles to the slaughter house. ( Lacombe or Fort Mcleod) That is if they(plant) can accept the F. Horse as you can not prove ownership. Due to the new Gov't Livestock rules. Humane to shoot a Deer, not a Horse. That worked for the U.S.A.. They out lawed the slaughter of all Horses, or the putting down of injured,old,or sick, without bieng done by a Vet. This is Federal Law. So now all the unwanted Horses come North to be slaughtered or are abandoned and left to starve . Which is happening to their precious Mustangs in some areas, due to lack of food.
Regards:Evil72

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by michaelmicallef

My only problem with the feral horse issue is that people seem to be giving them some sort of protection because they are horses. If someone wants to make use of a feral horse ( for food or what ever other purpose) I think they should be able to. Just like the rings necks the Hungarian partrage. If they are causing issues I don't think they should be excluded from harvesting just because they are cute. No other invasive spiecies has the protection a feral horse has. Not to my knowledge.

Brown trout, rainbow trout, I belive golden trout are not native. And horse can be harvested with the correct licensing and method of capture. For the record we are talking abought less than 1000 horse in a few areas, compared to aprox 26000 elk in the province .??? Scale dont make no sense.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

So where did the horses in there thousands macdougal and the first police reported in the 1890' come from.
About 200 years ago, 3 million wild horses roamed North America.[2]

These were escaped horses that spread across NA from the original spanish stock brought over by the conquistador's in the 16 th century

"The first Mustangs descended from Iberian horses[10] brought to Mexico and Florida. Most of these horses were of Andalusian, Arabian and Barb ancestry[citation needed]. Some of these horses escaped or were captured by Native Americans, and rapidly spread throughout western North America[citation needed].
Native Americans quickly adopted the horse as a primary means of transportation. Horses replaced the dog as a travois puller and greatly improved success in battles, trade, and hunts, particularly bison hunts.[11]"


http://discoverseaz.com/History/Horse.html...

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

So where did the horses in there thousands macdougal and the first police reported in the 1890' come from. Now were at 120 yrs and the horse was here when palliser reports plains horse people In the central alberta area 1850 odds now were at 160 yrs . See where this is going . So when did the horse dissapear to be reintroduced. ??

I have no idea when the alleged "wild" east slopes/foothills horses (not actually an area referred to by any of your sources) disappeared, but obviously they were hunted or trapped into non-existence by the early 1900s. All available documented sources on existing foothills feral horses indicates that the source was 100% abandoned and escaped stock.

If you could point out some serious research about the **Alberta foothills** feral horses that indicates otherwise, I would be very interested.

Originally Posted by fish gunner

My out laws were some of the very first settlers in the nordegg area . They report free roaming horse roughly 1880-1890.

I would take multi-generation old oral history with a grain of salt. Many tales get mangled in the passing down process.

Originally Posted by fish gunner

So yes there are wild release in the poulation , no info can be found on my part to suggest the horse does not predates us white folks

You have it backwards. You need to be looking for proof that there actually was a significant herd of wild horses pre-existing in the Alberta foothills generally west of Sundre prior to domestic ferals being introduced. You have a nugget of oral history in your favor that is very interesting, but without further research or backup documentation isn't really considered strong evidence.

Originally Posted by fish gunner

unless the horse found from Manitoba to the kootaney valley just happened to give the foothills a miss. Not very lightly.

There's a small obstruction between the Kootenay region and Manitoba called the continental divide. I believe there were domesticated Indian horses on both sides of the divide, but that by no means implies they lived in the mountains or foothills on this side.

Perhaps some members know first nation's history and how far north and west the distribution of horses was in Alberta native groups prior to 1900? And is there any proof that this had lead to the creation of significant associated populations of wild horses in these same areas?

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

And horse can be harvested with the correct licensing and method of capture.

Fish Gunner, I already told you how no one was allowed to trap horses in 2012/2013 season. Do you know for a fact that the government is allowing the horse roundup back this winter or are they punting the decision again?

And even if it is being allowed again, this is not the same as hunting a horse. You have to perform a "humane" live-trapping operation. This is very far from a simple proposition for any but a few.

Originally Posted by fish gunner

For the record we are talking abought less than 1000 horse in a few areas, compared to aprox 26000 elk in the province .??? Scale dont make no sense.

Your scale doesn't make sense. How many elk in the same region as the horses? Probably still more than horses, but not 26,000 to 1,000. It would be a much smaller ratio.

If you offered anyone on this board an opportunity to exchange 1,000 scruffy feral horse in their hunting area for 1,000 wild, natural, shootable, tasty elk, I think I know how they would all answer.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Caleb

I have no idea when the alleged "wild" east slopes/foothills horses (not actually an area referred to by any of your sources) disappeared, but obviously they were hunted or trapped into non-existence by the early 1900s. All available documented sources on existing foothills feral horses indicates that the source was 100% abandoned and escaped stock.

If you could point out some serious research about the **Alberta foothills** feral horses that indicates otherwise, I would be very interested.



I would take multi-generation old oral history with a grain of salt. Many tales get mangled in the passing down process.


You have it backwards. You need to be looking for proof that there actually was a significant herd of wild horses pre-existing in the Alberta foothills generally west of Sundre prior to domestic ferals being introduced. You have a nugget of oral history in your favor that is very interesting, but without further research or backup documentation isn't really considered strong evidence.



There's a small obstruction between the Kootenay region and Manitoba called the continental divide. I believe there were domesticated Indian horses on both sides of the divide, but that by no means implies they lived in the mountains or foothills on this side.

Perhaps some members know first nation's history and how far north and west the distribution of horses was in Alberta native groups prior to 1900? And is there any proof that this had lead to the creation of significant associated populations of wild horses in these same areas?

How about Anthony hendeys 1754 Autumn reports of young men not wanting to leave behind there horses in the red deer area . No... anyone... crickets.... so I found horses at the very first reports of any non native 50 miles from the present day wild horses.

[evil72]

Hello: Everyone
Seems to me that a whole bunch of responders think that the eradication or management(classed as wildlife by Gov't), of the F. Horse would cause a mass extinction of the Horse species. Don't be alarmed there will still be lots of domestic Horses to love, take pictures of, and ride to your hearts content.
Let us keep emotions and passions out of this!!! That all ready caused the dramatic increase of our Wolf pop.( The stopping of aerial shooting,and everyone Disneyfieing them).
FWIW! The more I look outside, the more I think this whole topic is mute. As I think Mother Nature is going to take care of the problem herself. Fingers crossed!!!!
I can also see that some responders see no problem. That 's ok , as I have no problem with hunting F. Horses When that is all that's left . Meat is Meat!!
The other responders have no solutions. The purpose of this thread! But that is ok too. See above!
Regards:Evil72
Shoot Lots & Shoot Well:

[Caleb]

Fish Gunner,

I guess I'm really not sure I get what you're trying to prove. If the horses were to be classified as "wild" then they would likely fall under federal endangered species regulation. Which would eliminate any chance of sensible management at a low population number.

If you support provincial management under at least some variation of the current setup, then leaving these horses as feral seems to be much more sensible.

I love to be the contrarian too, but I'm just wondering why you're so avidly supporting the "wild horse" line, when that really just makes you a tool of the pro-animal-rights, anti-hunter crowd that makes up the majority of the horse-lover side. Look at who your allies are in the fight about these horses.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

How about Anthony hendeys 1754 Autumn reports of young men not wanting to leave behind there horses in the red deer area . No... anyone... crickets.... so I found horses at the very first reports of any non native 50 miles from the present day wild horses.

Last I checked Red Deer isn't in the foothills.

Try again.

And even funnier, this note from Hendey is about abandoned domesticated horses. Heh. So no matter how far back you go, all you seem to find is feral horses....

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Brown trout, rainbow trout, I belive golden trout are not native. And horse can be harvested with the correct licensing and method of capture. For the record we are talking abought less than 1000 horse in a few areas, compared to aprox 26000 elk in the province .??? Scale dont make no sense.

So than people are making a big deal over nothing as usual. It just makes me nuts when people get all defensive about horses because they're cute or are pets. If I lived in Canmore bunny stew would be a regular meal.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Caleb

Last I checked Red Deer isn't in the foothills.

Try again.

And even funnier, this note from Hendey is about abandoned domesticated horses. Heh. So no matter how far back you go, all you seem to find is feral horses....

Abandoned by who ?? Exactly so we have horse in the red deer river drainage of which the little red goes directly into 316 exactly where the wild horse is found. how many coincidence do we need to deny . One time its 100yrs so we can debunk that then its 160yrs and we debunk that now we have horses in the water shed 200 yrs ago . What is needed ,brown trout weren't in the river we protect them ?? The horse was with In 50 to 100 miles of todays herd ?? Horse cant cover 100miles in say 200 yrs bahahaha . Some one has an agenda,its not me short of being in the red deer river drainage my self 200 yrs ago to see them with my own eyes . I can do no more , the horse was here before the browns and the rainbows in the river called wild in the glossy mags but the horse that predates them by 100 yrs is feral

[lannie]

Originally Posted by artie

Why do these feral or wild horses only seem to be found in certian areas? I have not seen any in the Crowsnest Pass or the southern Kananaskis area. You would think there would be lots in the Porcupine Hillls area but I have not seen any.

The ones that made their way down to the southern end of the province would have been broke to ride or shot by ranchers fairly quick. This is where the self respecting ranchers Ralph Kline talked about grew up with the S S S.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Abandoned by who ?? Exactly so we have horse in the red deer river drainage of which the little red goes directly into 316 exactly where the wild horse is found. how many coincidence do we need to deny . One time its 100yrs so we can debunk that then its 160yrs and we debunk that now we have horses in the water shed 200 yrs ago . What is needed ,brown trout weren't in the river we protect them ?? The horse was with In 50 to 100 miles of todays herd ?? Horse cant cover 100miles in say 200 yrs bahahaha . Some one has an agenda,its not me short of being in the red deer river drainage my self 200 yrs ago to see them with my own eyes . I can do no more , the horse was here before the browns and the rainbows in the river called wild in the glossy mags but the horse that predates them by 100 yrs is feral

Hey, you're the one waving your arms around making guesses and conjectures without backup facts. I just asked for documented evidence for "wild" horses living in the same area where we now have feral horses prior to European settlement.

You have not yet met that simple requirement.

I'd also like to hear your answer to my question about why you want to try and prove these horses are as "wild" as the elk.

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Caleb

Hey, you're the one waving your arms around making guesses and conjectures without backup facts. I just asked for documented evidence for "wild" horses living in the same area where we now have feral horses prior to European settlement.

You have not yet met that simple requirement.

I'd also like to hear your answer to my question about why you want to try and prove these horses are as "wild" as the elk.

I am stating the feral humans (non native )have no pov to state the horse did not prexist the feral human . That is all . Are the suffield elk feral ?? I sugest no ,a reintroduced once extinct critter just like the horse.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by lannie

The ones that made their way down to the southern end of the province would have been broke to ride or shot by ranchers fairly quick. This is where the self respecting ranchers Ralph Kline talked about grew up with the S S S.

Heh. Probably the fate of all the other "wild horses" in Alberta.

[Caleb]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

I am stating the feral humans (non native )have no pov to state the horse did not prexist the feral human . That is all . Are the suffield elk feral ?? I sugest no ,a reintroduced once extinct critter just like the horse.

Ok, aside from your bizarre ramblings about feral humans, what is it you want for the feral horse living in the Alberta foothills? Complete protection so it can proliferate uncontrolled? Reasoned management policies that include horse trapping for slaughterhouses?

[stemorholake]

Eat em!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Caleb

Ok, aside from your bizarre ramblings about feral humans, what is it you want for the feral horse living in the Alberta foothills? Complete protection so it can proliferate uncontrolled? Reasoned management policies that include horse trapping for slaughterhouses?

Im fine with humane capture as exists according to srd. Non native human =feral no? Our numbers run unchecked and number in the millions. destroying ,wetlands, lakes and rivers for a century or two. Yet a thousand horse that have cohabitated with the free range game for over two centuries needs controlled . Hmm some one has a bone to pick with these mostly harmless horses.

[wally338]

I don't like horses ...of any kind. But they make excellent coyote bait and I love shooting coyotes over bait.