.300 win mag vs .300 wsm

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Your not coughing,burping and farting enough.
Give them a chance to smell you and your wish may be granted !!

I save the real close stuff for my muzzle loaders and flat bows. ( grin)
Cat

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I save the real close stuff for my muzzle loaders and flat bows. ( grin)
Cat

They don't have to be that close for the ''flat bows'' do they?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

They don't have to be that close for the ''flat bows'' do they?

I don't shoot at big game animals sticks over 25 yards as a rule because I still hunt and stalk ,the closest was 12 feet.
traditional bows simply aren't long range pieces of equipment in my books, maybe in others they are however....
Cat

[elkhunter11]

The word "replaced" is kind of like the word "pregnant"...it's all or nothing.

All that time thinking up a witty response,and that is the best that you could come up with?That is disappointing.

So are you telling us that technology can't partly replace experience and expertise?According to you,it either it has to replace it all or none?

A laser rangefinder can replace the necessity for accurate range estimation by you,but it doesn't replace the necessity of you having to estimate the wind direction and speed.Technology helps by replacing some skills,but it doesn't totally replace experience and expertise.

A ballistic reticle can replace you having to estimate holdover,but you still need knowledge and expertise to compensate for changes in temperature that effect the velocity,and therefore the trajectory.Again,technology helps us by replacing some skills,but it doesn't completely replace experience and expertise.

I guess that technology can partly replace experience and expertise after all.So much for the all or nothing theory.

[wwbirds]

Yup the all or nothing theory is alot like beating a subject to death to make sure you get the final word. you can be the most knowledgeable firearms person in the world but when one up man ship takes over it is purely ego driven. Then again some people like to help others and some people like to impress others. Choices. Hmmmmmm

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

All that time thinking up a witty response,and that is the best that you could come up with?That is disappointing.

So are you telling us that technology can't partly replace experience and expertise?According to you,it either it has to replace it all or none?

A laser rangefinder can replace the necessity for accurate range estimation by you,but it doesn't replace the necessity of you having to estimate the wind direction and speed.Technology helps by replacing some skills,but it doesn't totally replace experience and expertise.

A ballistic reticle can replace you having to estimate holdover,but you still need knowledge and expertise to compensate for changes in temperature that effect the velocity,and therefore the trajectory.Again,technology helps us by replacing some skills,but it doesn't completely replace experience and expertise.

I guess that technology can partly replace experience and expertise after all.So much for the all or nothing theory.

Sorry elk, I have a life outside of AO
For the record, this is what I said

Technology takes the place of much of that pratice

I stand by it! I think you've been doing a bit too much "reading in"

Have a happy new year!

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I don't shoot at big game animals sticks over 25 yards as a rule because I still hunt and stalk ,the closest was 12 feet.
traditional bows simply aren't long range pieces of equipment in my books, maybe in others they are however....
Cat

Sorry, I mis-interpreted a flat bow to be a x-bow.

[garand]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I find that the people on this board and other similar boards are in fact,on average much more competent shooters than the majority of the general public.We have a large cross section of hunters and shooters that share a lot of experience that isn't so common among many hunters and shooters.

That being the case,there are still a fair number of people that like to over simplify reloading and long range shooting.

There are still people that are mystified when the so called "most accurate load" listed in a manual,isn't the most accurate load in their gun.They still think that any load listed in a manual will be safe in their gun.

Many people still fail to comprehend how critical wind drift is at longer ranges,and they aren't capable at compensating for it.They fail to understand why their gun was shooting dead on last summer a +20 degrees,and the ballistic reticle seemed dead on,but now at -20degrees,the reticle suddenly seems out of calibration.

If you take the time to learn reloading and ballistics,these things are easily explained,but many people simply don't currently have the education or the experience,to understand these concepts.

Yes technology like laser rangefinders are very useful,and they do greatly help us by eliminating errors in range estimation,but technology can't always replace knowledge and experience.If you don't know why that ballistic reticle seems to be out of calibration now,you aren't going to know how to re calibrate it,or how to compensate for the calibration error,given the present conditions.

I understand what you are trying to say Elk.

I agree with what you have said.

I think that my opinion may vary from you and Sheep somewhat, in that I believe the addition of technology should supplement knowledge and practice to hopefully develop proficiency. I don't believe that it replaces or lessens the time a guy should put it to become a good long range shot.

Anyway this seems to have drifted somewhat from the original question.

Good luck with whichever cartridge you choose and Happy New Year to everyone.
A

[elkhunter11]

I understand what you are trying to say Elk.

I agree with what you have said.

I think that my opinion may vary from you and Sheep somewhat, in that I believe the addition of technology should supplement knowledge and practice to hopefully develop proficiency. I don't believe that it replaces or lessens the time a guy should put it to become a good long range shot.

Actually,I wholeheartedly share your opinion that technology is a great supplement to knowledge and practice,but that it shouldn't be used to replace practice or knowledge.I am a huge believer in laser rangefinders,regardless of the shooters skills,or how much he practices.I just recently mounted a new 6-24x56 Zeiss Diavari with the Varmint reticle on my target rifle,and will be experimenting with it soon.However,I will not reduce my shooting practice because I have this scope.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Actually,I wholeheartedly share your opinion that technology is a great supplement to knowledge and practice,but that it shouldn't be used to replace practice or knowledge.I am a huge believer in laser rangefinders,regardless of the shooters skills,or how much he practices.I just recently mounted a new 6-24x56 Zeiss Diavari with the Varmint reticle on my target rifle,and will be experimenting with it soon.However,I will not reduce my shooting practice because I have this scope.

Just a question Elk.

Do you work?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Just a question Elk.

Do you work?

Just yanking your chain. You don't have to answer that

[spurly]

OHHH but he will. over and over and over.

[elkhunter11]

Do you work?

I work a 4 days per week/ 10.5 hour per day work schedule and usually put in another 300 to 400 hours of overtime every year.I make the time to visit the range an average of 30 times or so per year.Usually,I am at the range very early,so it doesn't use up much of my day.It doesn't hurt that I can be at the range and be set up within 1/2 hour from leaving my home.

Amazingly enough,all of the other regulars that I see at the range also put in normal hours of work.Somehow,we all work,and still are able to make the time to get to the range on a regular basis.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I work a 4 days per week/ 10.5 hour per day work schedule and usually put in another 300 to 400 hours of overtime every year.I make the time to visit the range an average of 30 times or so per year.Usually,I am at the range very early,so it doesn't use up much of my day.It doesn't hurt that I can be at the range and be set up within 1/2 hour from leaving my home.

Amazingly enough,all of the other regulars that I see at the range also put in normal hours of work.Somehow,we all work,and still are able to make the time to get to the range on a regular basis.

Wow.... impressed...really.

OK.

Are you married?
Kids?

[Mountain Guy]

Don't get me wrong.
I'm not jealous.....envious yes, not jealous.

[Mountain Guy]

I'm trying to figure out how the heck you guys do it ??
Maybe I need to take a ''time management'' course................or .........less time around here

[elkhunter11]

I'm trying to figure out how the heck you guys do it ??
Maybe I need to take a ''time management'' course................or .........less time around here

No young kids,so it is easier.I am often at the range by 7am,and headed home by 9am,so it really doesn't cut into my day much.Besides,I like to be on my way home before it gets too crowded.The only exception is Sunday,when I stay to shoot skeet with Catnthehat and the other members.We usually get started before 10am,and I am headed home by noon.

[Mountain Guy]

Actually... I think I can do it !!



Just need to give up...............golf,fishing,camping,visiting the inlaws,slow pitch,ball tournaments,kids sports,playground time,volunteer fire-fighting,poker,annual salmon fishing trips,annual Maligne lk trips,3 week summer vacations with the family, Las Vegas, poker........................and of course

WORK !!

[elkhunter11]

Just need to give up...............golf,fishing,camping,visiting the inlaws,slow pitch,ball tournaments,kids sports,playground time,volunteer fire-fighting,poker,annual salmon fishing trips,annual Maligne lk trips,3 week summer vacations with the family, Las Vegas, poker........................and of course

At 50,I still feel too young to golf,and I don't care for slow pitch,but I do take a two week motorcycle trip every year,I hunt for a couple of weeks each year,a week or two to get away with the Mrs,I do get away salmon fishing most years,I make it to the gym 4 or 5 days per week,and I do a fair bit of mountain biking.

[Mountain Guy]

QUOTE=elkhunter11;783277]At 50,I still feel too young to golf,and I don't care for slow pitch,but I do take a two week motorcycle trip every year,I hunt for a couple of weeks each year,a week or two to get away with the Mrs,I do get away salmon fishing most years,I make it to the gym 4 or 5 days per week,and I do a fair bit of mountain biking.[/QUOTE]

Heck.... you should run Time Management course
But I did see you don't have youngsters. Having a 7 & 12 year old both girls and a wife, means I'm outnumbered 3 to 1.

At least thats the excuse I\m going with

sorry to get off topic

[browning375]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

QUOTE=elkhunter11;783277]At 50,I still feel too young to golf,and I don't care for slow pitch,but I do take a two week motorcycle trip every year,I hunt for a couple of weeks each year,a week or two to get away with the Mrs,I do get away salmon fishing most years,I make it to the gym 4 or 5 days per week,and I do a fair bit of mountain biking.

Heck.... you should run Time Management course
But I did see you don't have youngsters. Having a 7 & 12 year old both girls and a wife, means I'm outnumbered 3 to 1.

At least thats the excuse I\m going with

sorry to get off topic[/QUOTE]

And again, most of us have real jobs! None of this 4 day a week stuff!

[elkhunter11]

And again, most of us have real jobs! None of this 4 day a week stuff!

40 hours is a pretty standard work week,and I work 42 hours plus overtime.I spend an extra 1-1/2 hours to 2 hours traveling to and from work each day.

So how many hours a week do you work?How many hours of overtime each year?

[browning375]

I work over 340 hours a month average, 24hr oncall. 21 days on 4 days off. I manage an oilfield service company, and plus own a side business as well.

[elkhunter11]

I work over 340 hours a month average, 24hr oncall. 21 days on 4 days off.

I don't count oncall,because I am not actually at work during that time.If you actually work 340 hours every month,you don't have time to live,but you must be hauling in some paycheck.At least you should be for that kind of commitment.

[browning375]

It's a curse, i love my job! I carry my toys with me, this time of year i carry my ice fishing gear with me and my coyote gun! When i get a slow day i take off for the lake( 3 mins from my house) or cruise for a coyote.

In the fall i put a ton of miles on, see lots of game and new spots to hunt.

[.330 Dakota]

Being a handloader for 30 years I must comment here. I have loaded and hunted with the 300 Win Mag for many years and there is absolutely NOTHING on this continent that it wont kill, and kill very quickly. That said a bear shot in the foot is a bear shot in the foot regardless if it is with the 30-30 or a 458.
Shot placement is key of course but the 300 Win has lots of umph. The need for the short mag is simple. MARKETING. they are out of ideas so they reinvent the wheel with a shorter and harder kicking round.
I have shot the 300wsm in several rifles and it definately has a sharper snap than the regular 300.
Just no practical need for it IMHO, as the 1/2 inch in rifle oal you save isnt really the issue now is it.

[elkhunter11]

It's a curse, i love my job! I carry my toys with me, this time of year i carry my ice fishing gear with me and my coyote gun! When i get a slow day i take off for the lake( 3 mins from my house) or cruise for a coyote.

In the fall i put a ton of miles on, see lots of game and new spots to hunt.

So you can come and go when you please,fish and look for coyotes,and you call that a real job?

[elkhunter11]

The need for the short mag is simple. MARKETING. they are out of ideas so they reinvent the wheel with a shorter and harder kicking round.

It's all about marketing, convincing people that they really need something,when they really don't.But the WSMs aren't unique in that regard.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's all about marketing, convincing people that they really need something,when they really don't.But the WSMs aren't unique in that regard.

100% all in on that comment!

It was summed up to me many years ago by my father who happened to be the Shooting Sports Development Manager for a large Canadian ammo manufacturer.
I had asked him about some new cartridge or some or other, and he said this to me.

" Son, that's something that was designed by someone to sell to someone who thinks they need it"
To that end, it would be the job the add. department ( marketing wiz-bangs as they old man called them) to convince the gun totin' public to buy whatever it was that was dreamed up in R&D!
Cat

[LongBomber]

It is defintely marketing, they really got me. I bought both - the long and the short.. and built a rifle for the longest one too!!