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10-31-2012, 08:43 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseelk
Never said I was better than anyone else, I guess you dont have to agree but you dont have to get personal either  |
Its not being personal plsleek
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10-31-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Then you of all people know exactly where I am coming from. The thing still remains a couple hundred years the majority of these horse have run freely, yes there maybe other horses over the course of the last century that have mixed with the herds, it happens so be it,, however they were still there before you and I sheep. this is what I am getting at. I have caught wildies over the years,, and I have found some of them to have more heart than a domesticated horse ever had. I think that in it self is reason enough to let the wildies be.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Horses have played a huge role all of my life and have too in my family's life for several generations but they are tools and nothing more. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate a good horse and treat them well but to me they aren't pets nor are they majestic wild creatures...perhaps I'm just a bit more of a pragmatist than a romantic. I guess I see all domestic animals in the same light.
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10-31-2012, 08:45 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Walleyes I would put a lot more worth in horses than i would some people ,, and that is a fact. and I would put alot more worth in other animals than some people. Management is important in all species,, when are they going to put management in place for bipeds?Humanoids?
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Humanoids are never a problem on this planet 
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff
"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta
.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!
LC
"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......
when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.
Go figure." -Huntinstuff
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10-31-2012, 08:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Banff
Posts: 1,578
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Fortiter et Recte
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10-31-2012, 08:46 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneeze
Just repeating it in case any of the wild pony lovers skim to quickly.
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Break that down Sneeze,, explain where the dont belong, where they havent existed and been apart of the eco system for that time period
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10-31-2012, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyelk
No offense intended
But your the guy keen on shooting invasive species.
I'm not saying we need to manage horses, I'm not saying we don't...what I'm saying is your statement horses are a new species is not correct.
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It's just the erradication of non-native humans that caught me off guard. Well and some of your "facts" regarding why the horses disappeared.
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10-31-2012, 08:49 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
I may be biased and opinionated about this ,, and rightly so,, horse have packed my ass around for nere 50 years ,, helping me earn a living and enjoy the out doors. If it wasnt for the horse i wouldnt be here today,, they are an integral part of my livelyhood. However someone who doesnt know that or experienced that wouldn't have the slightest clue what it entails. Some one tells them somthing and they fall for it hook line and sinker.. Like i said I raise horses, have numbers in the hundreds and at one time in the thousands. yet I still feel that they have a purpose and served many purposes in our history of this country and deverve far more respect,, than they are getting because if it wasnt for the horses,, the majority of the western civilaization would not exist.
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Thats all well and good ,I dont have a hate on for horses as long as there on ypur property not on public land.Same goes for cows .If you cant feed them yourself on your own property than maybe you have to many.
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10-31-2012, 08:52 PM
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Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Horses have played a huge role all of my life and have too in my family's life for several generations but they are tools and nothing more. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate a good horse and treat them well but to me they aren't pets nor are they majestic wild creatures...perhaps I'm just a bit more of a pragmatist than a romantic. I guess I see all domestic animals in the same light.
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As many years in the saddle, how many times were you cruel to your horse,, how many times did you lay a hand on his neck in comfort or for a calming effect, that My friend makes them more than a tool. they become apart of us, become a purpose in our lives,, yes they are our beasts of burden however, we treat them with uttmost respect and care of their well being, I never felt they were a tool. in my years in the saddle they were my friends and compadres on lifes trail. so In that aspect i think we need to agree to disagree. Horse in my life earned a spot in it and I in theirs
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10-31-2012, 08:52 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 5,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slough shark
I understand where you are coming from but if the habitat will support a certain number of prey animals. If one were to remove a large number of them (horse "cull") the predators would have a much harder time finding enough food..
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That's the same upside-down thinking that has led SRD to issue wayyyy too many moose tags in woodland caribou habitat. They think like you do - wipe out the moose and the wolves will starve and therefore the caribou will survive.
It's hard to expose that kind of back asswards, goofy thinking without being rude.
__________________
"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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10-31-2012, 08:52 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: WMU 108
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickflicker
Why do you want to get rid of all the wild horses? There are lots of them where I hunt. I always thought it was kinda strange that they were just hanging out where the deer and moose are supposed to be, and I almost hit one on the road the other day... I'm just curious why you're so pumped that someone is finally gonna get rid of them?  |
I think you answered your own question.
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10-31-2012, 08:53 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseelk
Thats all well and good ,I dont have a hate on for horses as long as there on ypur property not on public land.Same goes for cows .If you cant feed them yourself on your own property than maybe you have to many.
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Wow, Guess you don't eat beef. If there was no grazing on public land,Beef would be for the very rich only.
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff
"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta
.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!
LC
"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......
when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.
Go figure." -Huntinstuff
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10-31-2012, 08:54 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseelk
Thats all well and good ,I dont have a hate on for horses as long as there on ypur property not on public land.Same goes for cows .If you cant feed them yourself on your own property than maybe you have to many.
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I dont think your getting the point Pseelk, the horses were there long before you and I. where do we have the right to say they dont belong. neither you and i do.
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10-31-2012, 08:58 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky7
NO horses are native to North America!!!!!
Elk don't mostly belong in that landscape, either! Good grief.
Can we skip all the "begats", please?
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No they aren't...and yes they do.
Horses as we know them...modern horses were introduced.
The original North American horse was likely quite a bit different and it disppeared along with wooly mammoths.
Elk on the other hand have pretty much always been there.
Last edited by Big Daddy Badger; 10-31-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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10-31-2012, 08:59 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 5,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Horses .. are tools and nothing more.
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I've known some horses that were tools - but not like you mean it.
There's them that own horses and are horsemen and there's those that just own horses. I don't claim to be a horseman. Sunset is, I believe. My aunt was. They have a kind of kinship with horses that a tool owner will never know.
__________________
"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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10-31-2012, 08:59 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Walleyes I would put a lot more worth in horses than i would some people ,, and that is a fact. and I would put alot more worth in other animals than some people. Management is important in all species,, when are they going to put management in place for bipeds?Humanoids?
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They already have.thats why you need a lisence to kill anything,no poaching allowed
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10-31-2012, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
As many years in the saddle, how many times were you cruel to your horse,, how many times did you lay a hand on his neck in comfort or for a calming effect, that My friend makes them more than a tool. they become apart of us, become a purpose in our lives,, yes they are our beasts of burden however, we treat them with uttmost respect and care of their well being, I never felt they were a tool. in my years in the saddle they were my friends and compadres on lifes trail. so In that aspect i think we need to agree to disagree. Horse in my life earned a spot in it and I in theirs
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I've never been cruel to a horse and never will be but that doesn't mean that I anthropomorphize them either. Seriously, they are simply tools to me. Some are much better tools than others. I appreciate that they get me from A to B and that I can rope and treat a calf from one but I can't say I've ever just gone for a ride for an emotional connection. I appreciate that you are a romantic at heart but sadly, we can't manage Alberta's wildlife based on romantic notions.
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10-31-2012, 09:03 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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10-31-2012, 09:04 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Walleyes I would put a lot more worth in horses than i would some people ,, and that is a fact. and I would put alot more worth in other animals than some people. Management is important in all species,, when are they going to put management in place for bipeds?Humanoids?
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At my wedding I want flowers, and rainbows and unicorns!!!!
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10-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky7
I've known some horses that were tools - but not like you mean it.
There's them that own horses and are horsemen and there's those that just own horses. I don't claim to be a horseman. Sunset is, I believe. My aunt was. They have a kind of kinship with horses that a tool owner will never know.
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It all sounds romantic but athropomorphizing animals is stuff of Disney....not the real world. Understanding horse behaviour does not equate to a kinship. I have no doubt that sunset is a very good horseman either.
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10-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
I've never been cruel to a horse and never will be but that doesn't mean that I anthropomorphize them either. Seriously, they are simply tools to me. Some are much better tools than others. I appreciate that they get me from A to B and that I can rope and treat a calf from one but I can't say I've ever just gone for a ride for an emotional connection. I appreciate that you are a romantic at heart but sadly, we can't manage Alberta's wildlife based on romantic notions.
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Nothing doing about romantic notions at all, it is a connection with a beast,, no different than a connection with my dog. They all have purpose in this world wild or domesticated.
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10-31-2012, 09:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Airdrie
Posts: 2,377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky7
That's the same upside-down thinking that has led SRD to issue wayyyy too many moose tags in woodland caribou habitat. They think like you do - wipe out the moose and the wolves will starve and therefore the caribou will survive.
It's hard to expose that kind of back asswards, goofy thinking without being rude.
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I agree that the caribou management plans are goofy, and you must have missed my other post that this needs to be done in tandem with a wolf cull as well. What other option do we have? something needs to be done because currently we have ungulate populations that are hurting pretty bad and wolf and horse populations that are exploding. Something needs to be done to address the issue of favouring the horses over the ungulates as horses are currently the only prey animal that are not being managed and that is quite unsustainable. We can't just go about shooting elk, moose, and deer, watch their populations go down (as they are) and not do anything about the horse population as it continues to climb and expect that magically the ungulates are going to come back and rebound. If this continues what's been happening will keep happening, ungulate populations go down, horse and wolves go up.
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10-31-2012, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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So the question come back ,, how do they plan to "CULL" these horses with in the guidlines set out in the horse capture act?
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10-31-2012, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Nothing doing about romantic notions at all, it is a connection with a beast,, no different than a connection with my dog. They all have purpose in this world wild or domesticated.
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I dunno Sunset, I am pretty sure I wouldn't want 1000 feral dogs running around the west country.
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10-31-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
Nothing doing about romantic notions at all, it is a connection with a beast,, no different than a connection with my dog. They all have purpose in this world wild or domesticated.
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Sadly, the only connection is that you are smarter than them and understand and more importantly know how to manipulate their bahaviour. Horses nor dogs have an emotional connection with humans...that's Disney stuff. You manipulate their behaviour to suit your needs. Not as flowery but more accurate. A good trainer is a good student of behaviour and a master manipulator
Seriously, if it were all about a connection, those spoiled backyard acreage ponies that people love so dearly would be the best equines around. We both know they aren't. Give a horse or a dog an opportunity to take advantage of you and it will.....not much of a connection.
Last edited by sheephunter; 10-31-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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10-31-2012, 09:16 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 5,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slough shark
I agree that the caribou management plans are goofy, and you must have missed my other post that this needs to be done in tandem with a wolf cull as well. What other option do we have? something needs to be done because currently we have ungulate populations that are hurting pretty bad and wolf and bear populations that are exploding..
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Fixed it for you.
Wolf cure: Super Cub. Right side door off. AR-15. Case of ammo. Safety harness. Snow on ground.
Bear cure: Two tags for blacks everywhere. Longer season. Limited Grizzly tags.
(You did ask).
Horses don't kill elk and moose. Wolves and bears do. Average pack of wolves takes 2 elk per week. Do the math.
__________________
"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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10-31-2012, 09:17 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: veteran ab
Posts: 1,622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Sadly, the only connection is that you are smarter than them and understand and more importantly know how to manipulate their bahaviour. Horses nor dogs have an emotional connection with humans...that's Disney stuff. You manipulate their behaviour to suit your needs. Not as flowery but more accurate. A good trainer is a good student of behaviour and a master manipulator
Seriously, if it were all about a connection, those spoiled backyard acreage ponies that people love so dearly would be the best equines around. We both know they aren't. Give a horse or a dog an opportunity to take advantage of you and it will.....not much of a connection. |
And you and i know very well there are people that have no business being horse owners or owners of any other animal for that matter. Like i said sheep we will have to agree to disagree on said subject.
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10-31-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011
And you and i know very well there are people that have no business being horse owners or owners of any other animal for that matter. Like i said sheep we will have to agree to disagree on said subject.
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Agreed!
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10-31-2012, 09:20 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Banff
Posts: 1,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
It's just the erradication of non-native humans that caught me off guard. Well and some of your "facts" regarding why the horses disappeared.
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Well the facts are all theoretical aren't they? We were not there, so it's an educated guessing game. I did hear an archeologist discussing the St Mary's dig and he was suggesting at the time given the number of butchered horse bones that hunting the species may have played a significant role in their disappearance on this continent. May have been migration to Asia may have been disease...all we know for sure is they were here long before the folks calling the shots were. To claim they are not indigenous to the area is a shell game, a straw mans argument, a debate based on a distortion of the truth.
We from time to time get these popular movements on the AO forums. No one has provided me with any research showing that horses in the wild are causing serious negative impacts. Perhaps someone could post some links to research that horses are causing problems, I'd like to become more informed on the subject.
Laird
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Fortiter et Recte
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10-31-2012, 09:22 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: N/E Alberta.
Posts: 4,957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
Sadly, the only connection is that you are smarter than them and understand and more importantly know how to manipulate their bahaviour. Horses nor dogs have an emotional connection with humans...that's Disney stuff. You manipulate their behaviour to suit your needs. Not as flowery but more accurate. A good trainer is a good student of behaviour and a master manipulator
Seriously, if it were all about a connection, those spoiled backyard acreage ponies that people love so dearly would be the best equines around. We both know they aren't. Give a horse or a dog an opportunity to take advantage of you and it will.....not much of a connection. |
Bingo !!
I don't know I've just never had a hard time telling the difference between humans and animals and our place here,, just can't get what it is about this that people can't grasp ??
Question for you sunset,, do you shoot gophers on yer grazing lands ?? they are an animal and one I would guess have been here for millennia,, whats the difference.. A nuisance is a nuisance and has to be controlled..
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10-31-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uglyelk
Well the facts are all theoretical aren't they?
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By definition no.
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