Wild Horse Cull

[slough shark]

BTW what methods are they using to do this "cull"? are they planning on shooting them, capturing and selling them? or does anyone really know?

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by vcmm

Kinda sounds like humans?

Ya I have to agree,except not all humans are like that.

[Albertaguide]

Originally Posted by backpacker

The wolves have been there far longer than feral horses and are a natural part of the ecosystem. Now don't start jumping down my throat about how wolves kill all the moose, deer, sheep elk etc.. cause I really don't give a damn! Wolves and other predators will die off or move on as food sources dictate. To kill a natural predator is the quickest way to allow diseased animals to mix and infect others.
Just my opinion folks, and we are all entitled to that.

X2!!

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by uglyelk

I have no problem with using resources. Want to shoot horses fine, tag them eat them and hopefully use the hide. If I caught someone shooting deer or horse and leaving to rot I suspect the both would be on the receiving end of the same boot. If someone can provide science that suggests that horses in the bush should be treated as a varmint I might reconsider.

Lots of folks don't recognize a prey species herd animal when they see one.They don't see the fear of predation. They don't see the dominance displays they don't see the pecking order getting sorted out. All they see is their little baby. The pet the child substitute. Some silly cartoon fantasy born out of cartoons and save the lemmings drivel.

Good thing theses folks are trying to raise horses and not kids. (sometimes they do both...poor kids) The good thing about these people is they always have a "bad Horse for sale". You can buy them cheap, these problem horses, and when you treat them like horses and expect them to be horses they turn out pretty good. Let's not be too tough on pet collectors they are a pretty good source of great horse flesh at rock bottom dollar. They should by toy poodles but their error is our opportunity.

like i said before there are a lot of horse owners that should never own an animal,, however,, you will not find a cheap horse on my place, so if you want a cheap horse go to innsfail and buy one cause you will never see one there with my brand on it.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by slough shark

BTW what methods are they using to do this "cull"? are they planning on shooting them, capturing and selling them? or does anyone really know?

Is illigal to shoot them , is illigal to chase with any motorized vehicle ,,wich include plane or boat,,,is illigal to rope or snare them,, so i would really like to know how they are going to round them up?

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Is illigal to shot them , is illigal to cahse with any motorized vehicle ,,wich include plane or boat,,,is illigal to rope or snare them,, so i owuld really like to know how they are going to round them up?

Same way old Nadia did,run them down with horses,or build trapslike they used to to capture elk.Dont know for sure but they must have some legal way to do it.Or maybe just pass a law.

[Rocky7]

Here's why elk/moose numbers are down. The cow does what she can, including taking her calf into water, but there are too many wolves and they know after they kill her calf, she will leave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b3py...eature=related

Bears do the same. In the only study I know of, bears took 45% of moose calves every year in SK.

In comparison, human hunters are a bit player.

And here's why we have such a devil of a time controlling wolf numbers...... liberal know-nothing dough heads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by pseelk

Same way old Nadia did,run them down with horses,or build trapslike they used to to capture elk.Dont know for sure but they must have some legal way to do it.Or maybe just pass a law.

The only Legal way i know is to use horses and catch pens.

[pickrel pat]

to all the people saying horses do such mass destruction to the country side....... do you carry a camera out in the bush? sheep? somebody should be able to post some pics of the ravaged countryside.......

[Pincherguy]

Just curious, if the Gov. is involved they pretty much do what they want don't they. Just askin'. I'm for leaving them be, lthe wolves take care of em.
PG

[Walleyes]

Just for the record,, I wouldn't want the horses wasted either..

I think they would make damn fine wolf bait..

[uglyelk]

Originally Posted by 11567403

x2 The wolves keep game populations healthy, they for the most part weed out the weak and sick out of the gene pools, insuring only the strong survive. hunters on the other hand do the opposite. (nothing against hunters, i am one myself) just saying the wolves are a critical part of the ecosystem and hunters do not neccesarily replace them.

I've been involved in some studies of the prey predator dynamic. I actually use to believe what you just posted. But the data did not support what you have suggested it is save the species drivel It is Walt at his worst. Walt Disney director of wildlife misinformation in the name of entertainment...hell as long as someone makes a buck it's got to be okay to peddle cute critters and BS. Lots of save the species agenda driven drivel out there

Wolves function as follows:

They enter an area of high prey density.

They hunt and breed.

Recruitment is driven by prey density, lots to eat, expect big litters until density declines.

Pack size explodes and density drops.

When it's to hard to earn a living pack splinters and moves out of the area.

Happy hunting!

Wolves like a nice feed just like you. Yes they scavenge, but like you and me they enjoy quality meat. The best meal is the healthy critter. Would you order schit when their is triple AAA on the menu?

Yes they will take an easy kill. But they tend to hunt every animal in the herd they do not target sickly critters, diseased meat is ...full of disease and parasites. They like quality grub just like the rest of us.

They are good at killing and the more they get to eat then more their number grows...kind of like bacteria. They eat the weak and sickly...Walt was correct. When prey density drops all that is left is the skinny weak prey that has been harassed and run until it's of low body weight and low energy. Immune system are no longer robust and this is not great grub!

The pack at this point moves on as too much energy is expended for a kill. Calories expended to harvested no longer are positive. The pack begins to degrade...and they recolonize in areas of high prey density.

The role of the wolf as a predator is they eat themselves out of house and home and move.

If you hunt these areas you go hungry.

We have always competed with the dog, feed the dog or starve? On a biological level, all predatory species compete. We all are will pick eachj other off when we can. we eat each others offspring and compete for the same prey. Why would we seek to expand the range of our competetor?

Wolves eliminate eliminate disease as effectively as condoms eliminated social disease....

[uglyelk]

sorry for the spelling it's late, I need to sleep.

[Knotter]

For those of you who want to protect feral horses in alberta... A question. Suppose, I decide to release a bunch of dogs into the wild and they scrape/eek out an existence killing the odd doe, gopher, bunny and magpie... Because they were part of my lifestyle/nice to look at/I wrote poem about them/helped me earn a living/my great great grandpappy had one etc. .. following your logic, do you think they belong in the eastern slopes and I should want to protect them from harm? Another mental exercise is to replace the dogs in the above with "my favorite pickup truck". How would you all feel if I set it free out in the crown because of the same reasons cited above? Its just goin' to sit there... not hurting anyone, right?

Those who say the horses don't harm anything. Two points - they are vectors for pathogens which could potentially harm native species. Secondly - they consume scarce resources. When a horse eats a bushel of forage - that is a bushel native species cannot eat. Some of that could be forage that means the difference between winter kill and survival. It's not to say that some ecosystems can't support large grazers - some did with buffalo... but those are a native species... ahem... they were. You need only look at a place like Australia with all of their disastrous policies to introduce animals into the ecosystem.

Those who contend that horses have been a part of the north american ecosystems for thousands of years... show me evidence of their existence in the ecosystem CONTINUOUSLY for that period as you can with native species....
I have yet to see that evidence... and I never will because it's just plain false.

Your bias is disrupting your ability to reason. Decisions to cull/eradicate should be based on the science of biology and ecology - not conjecture, opinion, poetry or doctrine. I will never say that you are not entitled to an opinion but in matters of fact there is one truth.

[krthegunslinger]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

I wonder if a guy could get in on it or is it just strictly for selected people ???

Ya X 2 I wanted to shoot our horse on the farm sooooo much how I walked home after getting thrown only to get home and he's standing in the yard. I want in on that cull. But then I guess all can't be bad horses. Ah heck I still want in on it.

[uglyelk]

Originally Posted by Knotter

For those of you who want to protect feral horses in alberta...

I didn't propose protecting anything...I asked for some science to suport that they were in need of a cull.

Suppose, I decide to release a bunch of dogs into the wild and they scrape/eek out an existence killing the odd doe, gopher, bunny and magpie...

Wolves and yotes are already there....feral dogs...I drive by several packs of them every week between Exshaw and Scott Lake Hill they chase cows horses and deer.

Because they were part of my lifestyle/nice to look at/I wrote poem about them/helped me earn a living/my great great grandpappy had one etc. .. following your logic, do you think they belong in the eastern slopes and I should want to protect them from harm? Another mental exercise is to replace the dogs in the above with "my favorite pickup truck". How would you all feel if I set it free out in the crown because of the same reasons cited above? Its just goin' to sit there... not hurting anyone, right?

WTF? is this is it the I've had too many argument? Because I have no idea what your trying to communicate.

Those who say the horses don't harm anything. Two points - they are vectors for pathogens which could potentially harm native species.

they are native species and every organic thing is " a vector for pathogens...what a sill buzz word dude!

Secondly - they consume scarce resources. When a horse eats a bushel of forage - that is a bushel native species cannot eat. Some of that could be forage that means the difference between winter kill and survival. It's not to say that some ecosystems can't support large grazers - some did with buffalo... but those are a native species... ahem... they were. You need only look at a place like Australia with all of their disastrous policies to introduce animals into the ecosystem.

native horses eating native forage the horror the horror! Horses were here before mule deer.

Lesson from OZ, yeah we reintroduced the Roo! put down the aiming fluid and think.

Those who contend that horses have been a part of the north american ecosystems for thousands of years... show me evidence of their existence in the ecosystem CONTINUOUSLY for that period as you can with native species....

Back at you....your species been here continuously?

Decisions to cull/eradicate should be based on the science of biology and ecology - not conjecture, opinion, poetry or doctrine.

old bones must have been planted under the ice by alliens dude.

I will never say that you are not entitled to an opinion but in matters of fact there is one truth.

It would appear that you want to believe what you want to believe is the truth. Fuk reality make your own up! I have little stake in this thread but man you amuse the crap out of me! Thanks! Just reading you is entertainment post more!

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by backpacker

The wolves have been there far longer than feral horses and are a natural part of the ecosystem. Now don't start jumping down my throat about how wolves kill all the moose, deer, sheep elk etc.. cause I really don't give a damn! Wolves and other predators will die off or move on as food sources dictate. To kill a natural predator is the quickest way to allow diseased animals to mix and infect others.
Just my opinion folks, and we are all entitled to that.

the wolves serve no useful purpose outside of the national parks here in alberta,cull them.

[32-40win]

There is a quarter just west of Bearberry on the forestry boundary that is set up to drive the wildies into, that the owner used to do that with. Last time was probably sometime in the early eighties. he and a guy that worked for him used to do it. And I ran into his helper up in the 7 mile flats/Tay river area in the early eighties when he was rounding up some in there. They did it all on horseback.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

There is a quarter just west of Bearberry on the forestry boundary that is set up to drive the wildies into, that the owner used to do that with. Last time was probably sometime in the early eighties. he and a guy that worked for him used to do it. And I ran into his helper up in the 7 mile flats/Tay river area in the early eighties when he was rounding up some in there. They did it all on horseback.

I know where your talking about,, and have run lil bands in there as well. I have run wildies the majority of my adult life,, whether here in Ab or in the cariboo in BC. and the only way to, is with other horses. That is staying with in the AB gov guidelines. The majority of people would know how or where to even begin running wildies or what it entails. There a lot more to it than getting on a horse and going to wrangle some wildies. So Again I would like to know their propositions of gathering said horses they supposedly want to cull. I should maybe apply for the Permits myself.

I suspect pen traps if they can keep people from tampering with them.

[molly]

It appears that the OP has had his thread completely derailed and my initial comment was right!
Oh, and no, I am not calling Ms. McQueen! (big surprise, there!)

Why don't you guys just use these little emoticons instead of typing all those long-winded arguments...It would save time!

[Sooner]

[QUOTE=Rocky7;1677164]Yeah, well that's more likely with horses than cows. Besides, horses make good trails to walk on and don't run diarrhea into the creeks.

But they do leave huge piles of shat in the openings and trails near Nordegg. We meet friends up there every year to camp and quad ride. The trails and shat they leave behind are everywhere. Same goes back behind Ram Falls where we hunted elk. If a cull ever happened, I would be for it.

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by uglyelk

native horses eating native forage the horror the horror! Horses were here before mule deer.



old bones must have been planted under the ice by alliens dude.

I think the horses you are referring to are from the Pleistocene. There is a 10,000 year gap in their presence in North America. The horses running around the eastern slopes now are descendants from commercial operations in the 20th century. If it could be shown as otherwise - I would be on the other side.

[sunsetrider2011]

[QUOTE=Sooner;1678216][QUOTE=Rocky7;1677164]Yeah, well that's more likely with horses than cows. Besides, horses make good trails to walk on and don't run diarrhea into the creeks.

But they do leave huge piles of shat in the openings and trails near Nordegg. We meet friends up there every year to camp and quad ride. The trails and shat they leave behind are everywhere. Same goes back behind Ram Falls where we hunted elk. If a cull ever happened, I would be for it.[/QOUTE\]


Do you actually know how a stallion marks his territory?

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by Knotter

I think the horses you are referring to are from the Pleistocene. There is a 10,000 year gap in their presence in North America. The horses running around the eastern slopes now are descendants from commercial operations in the 20th century. If it could be shown as otherwise - I would be on the other side.

The 20th century Huh,,I dont agree with that at all. Horses were reintroduced 500+ years ago, that were once native here.

A wide variety of horse species evolved and then died out as the grasses grew and receded. Around 10 million years ago, three-toed horse species were buried alongside of rhinos at Ashfall. During that same time period, horses migrated over the Bering land bridge into Central Asia. They spread across the globe, but in North America climate and habitat changes brought the ancient horses under pressure. The last remaining species in North America disappeared from the Central Plains around 10,000 years ago (8,000 years B.C.). It was not until the Spaniards brought horses back to North America in A. D. 1500 (or 500 years ago) that the species Equus set foot on this land.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by uglyelk

I've been involved in some studies of the prey predator dynamic. I actually use to believe what you just posted. But the data did not support what you have suggested it is save the species drivel It is Walt at his worst. Walt Disney director of wildlife misinformation in the name of entertainment...hell as long as someone makes a buck it's got to be okay to peddle cute critters and BS. Lots of save the species agenda driven drivel out there

Wolves function as follows:

They enter an area of high prey density.

They hunt and breed.

Recruitment is driven by prey density, lots to eat, expect big litters until density declines.

Pack size explodes and density drops.

When it's to hard to earn a living pack splinters and moves out of the area.

Happy hunting!

Wolves like a nice feed just like you. Yes they scavenge, but like you and me they enjoy quality meat. The best meal is the healthy critter. Would you order schit when their is triple AAA on the menu?

Yes they will take an easy kill. But they tend to hunt every animal in the herd they do not target sickly critters, diseased meat is ...full of disease and parasites. They like quality grub just like the rest of us.

They are good at killing and the more they get to eat then more their number grows...kind of like bacteria. They eat the weak and sickly...Walt was correct. When prey density drops all that is left is the skinny weak prey that has been harassed and run until it's of low body weight and low energy. Immune system are no longer robust and this is not great grub!

The pack at this point moves on as too much energy is expended for a kill. Calories expended to harvested no longer are positive. The pack begins to degrade...and they recolonize in areas of high prey density.

The role of the wolf as a predator is they eat themselves out of house and home and move.

If you hunt these areas you go hungry.

We have always competed with the dog, feed the dog or starve? On a biological level, all predatory species compete. We all are will pick eachj other off when we can. we eat each others offspring and compete for the same prey. Why would we seek to expand the range of our competetor?

Wolves eliminate eliminate disease as effectively as condoms eliminated social disease....

Good post,Uglyelk.Facts on how wolves kill are always good.

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

The 20th century Huh,,I dont agree with that at all. Horses were reintroduced 500+ years ago, that were once native here.

A wide variety of horse species evolved and then died out as the grasses grew and receded. Around 10 million years ago, three-toed horse species were buried alongside of rhinos at Ashfall. During that same time period, horses migrated over the Bering land bridge into Central Asia. They spread across the globe, but in North America climate and habitat changes brought the ancient horses under pressure. The last remaining species in North America disappeared from the Central Plains around 10,000 years ago (8,000 years B.C.). It was not until the Spaniards brought horses back to North America in A. D. 1500 (or 500 years ago) that the species Equus set foot on this land.

I think the key phrase was eastern slopes...it took horses a long time to get to Alberta. No doubt some came in the 19th century but the vast majority of horses in the eastern slopes now can be traced back to the early and mid 1900s. They were released because people couldn't afford to feed them or no longer needed them with the advent of more modern gas powered machinery. There's nothing majestic about them nor are them some special breed of mustang...they are just the remanants of feral livestock that had served its useful purpose.

It's not like the were reintroduced 500+ years ago in North America either....domestic horses were brought over to serve man. Some went feral no doubt but there was no reintroduction. That would kind of be like saying that Barnum and Bailey reintroduced elephants and tigers to North America.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by molly

It appears that the OP has had his thread completely derailed and my initial comment was right!
Oh, and no, I am not calling Ms. McQueen! (big surprise, there!)

Why don't you guys just use these little emoticons instead of typing all those long-winded arguments...It would save time!

Alas, it was bound to happen.Fortunately its still a civil debate,unfortunately,if you"ll pardon the pun,we"re still flogging a dead horse.We will all never agree wheather they should or should"nt be there.You probably wont be the only one not phoning Ms McQueen and thats ok too.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think the key phrase was eastern slopes...it took horses a long time to get to Alberta. No doubt some came in the 19th century but the vast majority of horses in the eastern slopes now can be traced back to the early and mid 1900s. They were released because people couldn't afford to feed them or no longer needed them with the advent of more modern gas powered machinery. There's nothing majestic about them nor are them some special breed of mustang...they are just the remanants of feral livestock that had served its useful purpose.

It's not like the were reintroduced 500+ years ago in North America either....domestic horses were brought over to serve man. Some went feral no doubt but there was no reintroduction. That would kind of be like saying that Barnum and Bailey reintroduced elephants and tigers to North America.

Im sure they would make great bait sets to trap wolves.

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

The 20th century Huh,,I dont agree with that at all. Horses were reintroduced 500+ years ago, that were once native here.

A wide variety of horse species evolved and then died out as the grasses grew and receded. Around 10 million years ago, three-toed horse species were buried alongside of rhinos at Ashfall. During that same time period, horses migrated over the Bering land bridge into Central Asia. They spread across the globe, but in North America climate and habitat changes brought the ancient horses under pressure. The last remaining species in North America disappeared from the Central Plains around 10,000 years ago (8,000 years B.C.). It was not until the Spaniards brought horses back to North America in A. D. 1500 (or 500 years ago) that the species Equus set foot on this land.

Allow me to cite your source:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0200/...0201_0105.html.

didn't sound like you.

Although similar - the horses here now are different in origin. That gap of 9,500 (10,000 minus 500) years is interesting. That's a big hole in the theory that horses are native (meaning they have continuity dating back to that time). Can you show us that they were here in that time?.. I mean between 8000 b.c. and 1492?