Sheep on a Draw?

[Gulo gulo]

Ok, after talking to a few Bio's it appears that the sheep populations in the province in most areas are doing fine. In fact the willmore area is actually high right now. The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

It is important for the for the members of this forum to realize that the 5 year wait will NOT increase trophy potential. It will only change who shoots the sheep.


As born and raised Albertan I know as many of you know that this province was bulit on hard work and sweat. We work hard and play hard. I feel it would be unfair to punished those same hard working, taxpaying, Albertans(who own the resource) for busting their butts off on the mountain.

Cheers

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

Cheers

With all of the discussion on this topic this is the only driver that I can figure pushing a draw or increasing the wait time for sucessful resident hunters by 500%..

Curious if a Non residents wait time will be increased proportionally to the Residents?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

With all of the discussion on this topic this is the only driver that I can figure pushing a draw or increasing the wait time for sucessful hunters by 500%..

There is a push from one group of resident hunters as well. I can't see it being born out of anything more than jealousy but it scares the heck out of me that F&W is considering it and refering to it as a solution.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Ok, after talking to a few Bio's it appears that the sheep populations in the province in most areas are doing fine. In fact the willmore area is actually high right now. The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

It is important for the for the members of this forum to realize that the 5 year wait will NOT increase trophy potential. It will only change who shoots the sheep.


As born and raised Albertan I know as many of you know that this province was bulit on hard work and sweat. We work hard and play hard. I feel it would be unfair to punished those same hard working, taxpaying, Albertans(who own the resource) for busting their butts off on the mountain.

Cheers

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

So how many of those guys are there? I personally don't know of any but the problem must endemic if F&W needs to put an end to the slaughter.... I don't see this as anything but some unsuccessful sheep hunters whining that they can't kill a ram. It's got zero to do with age or population management. If we want more or bigger rams, they need to be managed like any other game animal in Alberta...a draw. I personally don't think we need either but this nonsense of a five-year wait increasing population and age structure is pure BS. It's nothing more than some guys looking for an easier way to kill a ram and showing their jealousy of the successful.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So how many of those guys are there? I personally don't know of any but the problem must endemic if F&W needs to put an end to the slaughter.... I don't see this as anything but some unsuccessful sheep hunters whining that they can't kill a ram. It's got zero to do with age or population management. If we want more or bigger rams, they need to be managed like any other game animal in Alberta...a draw. I personally don't think we need either but this nonsense of a five-year wait increasing population and age structure is pure BS. It's nothing more than some guys looking for an easier way to kill a ram and showing their jealousy of the successful.

Ya thats my issue TJ im jealouse of the guys killing rams, superstars such as you and Rich. And I do know of 3 or 4 guys that have killed 3 - 5 rams all 2-3 years apart all under 165 and all under 7 years old. But I guess if you dont know of any than its not an issue.
Im not saying that our sheep hunting isnt good and yes every year some great rams are shot. Some guys would just like to see an improvment in mature rams being shot. If your against that its your right.
Im not saying the 5 year wait is for sure gunna help but 600 guys having to wait 5 years has got to do something!
Sure our sheep populations are decent but sure arent at or near the carrying capacity of the land.
SG

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ya thats my issue TJ im jealouse of the guys killing rams, superstars such as you and Rich. And I do know of 3 or 4 guys that have killed 3 - 5 rams all 2-3 years apart all under 165 and all under 7 years old. But I guess if you dont know of any than its not an issue.
Im not saying that our sheep hunting isnt good and yes every year some great rams are shot. Some guys would just like to see an improvment in mature rams being shot. If your against that its your right.
Im not saying the 5 year wait is for sure gunna help but 600 guys having to wait 5 years has got to do something!
Sure our sheep populations are decent but sure arent at or near the carrying capacity of the land.
SG

LOL, I'm hardly a superstar...I've killed far less than a ram every five years. I"ll likely kill one or two more rams in my life so this proposed new regulation would have zero effect on me. I just don't like the fact that those that work hard for sheep and those that have honed their skills through hard work and dedication are being punished. When did we start managing game by punishing good hunters. Should we do the same with mule deer? Trophy quality is unquestionably sliding there and I know some guys that kill bucks every year. If they weren't hunting but once every five years it sure would be easier for me to kill a big buck. I guess the other option is I could get off my butt and work as hard as them.


Please do not put words in my mouth Darcy, it's a really annoying habit you have when you are running out of things to say. I've never said that I'm against more mature rams but I know that this isn't the way to acheive it. Is this five year wait really about putting more mature rams on the mountain or is it about punishing the successful and making it easier for the unsuccessful. I only see the latter.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL, I'm hardly a superstar...I've killed far less than a ram every five years. I"ll likely kill one or two more rams in my life so this proposed new regulation would have zero effect on me. I just don't like the fact that those that work hard for sheep and those that have honed their skills through hard work and dedication are being punished. When did we start managing game by punishing good hunters. Should we do the same with mule deer? Trophy quality is unquestionably sliding there and I know some guys that kill bucks every year. If they weren't hunting but once every five years it should would be easier for me to kill a big buck. I guess the other option is I could get off my butt and work as hard as them.


Please do not put words in my mouth Darcy, it's a really annoying habit you have when you are running out of things to say. I've never said that I'm against more mature rams but I know that this isn't the way to acheive it. Is this five year wait really about putting more mature rams on the mountain or is it about punishing the successful and making it easier for the unsuccessful. I only the latter.

You know this wont help how? Back what you say! Your dead against everything that has been brought up on here as to suggestions for improvment(hence me stating that you must be against any improvment). They have been nothing more than suggestions.
And as far as comparing sheep to the mule deer id say in alot of zones there is a 5 year or better wait to get a big mule deer. Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

No, they provide equal opportunity, regardless of how successful you are. Draws are a tool used to manage populations and in some cases trophy quality. With the priority system we have in Aberta, everyone has equal opportunity. Yes, there could be some tinkering on the super long odd draws but for the most part, draws are the most equal way to provide opportunity while still meeting the population goals of the game managers.

The reason I'm dead against everything right now is no one has shown there's a problem. Prove the problem and then let's find a solution. If the problem is anything other than improving odds for the unsuccessful, I don't see a five year wait being the answer regardless of what the problem is. There are too many sheep hunters trying to kill a small number of sheep. Take a few out of the pool and there are lots more to take their place. Simple math says it ain't going to help. Unless you feel that 95% of sheep hunters are too inept to kill a ram......there's no way it can make a difference. Each year it will just be a different 140 guys killing rams....how does that improve population or age structure?

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You know this wont help how? Back what you say! Your dead against everything that has been brought up on here as to suggestions for improvment(hence me stating that you must be against any improvment). They have been nothing more than suggestions.
And as far as comparing sheep to the mule deer id say in alot of zones there is a 5 year or better wait to get a big mule deer. Isnt that what the draws do punish everyone?

No not the rich non resident that payed a guide. He can come every year.

[bighornram99]

i realize you guys make a livin huntin BIG bighorn rams!! i as a alberta hunter live to hunt the mountains of alberta!! i believe and will always believe that a trophy ram is in the eyes of the hunter!! a legal ram to someone who hunts them year after year with a backpack on is a trophy to be had! i believe that you only want to put the bighorn ram on draw to produce more trophy rams not to increase the population? if you start putting it on a draw for this it will end up being a RICH mans sport!! you will end up getting the draw every 5 yrs but if you can afford it you will hunt every year!! you have to remember that not every sheep hunter in alberta is out to shoot a ram every 2 years we JUST LOVE TO HUNT THE MOUNTAINS!!

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

So you think a longer wait would make a sheep hunter that has not harvested a ram pass on the 5, 6, and 7 year olds?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

So you think a longer wait would make a sheep hunter that has not harvested a ram pass on the 5, 6, and 7 year olds?

I just figure that 600 guys sitting out during a 5 year wait will decrease the amount of rams shot which in turn should alow a few rams the time to get a little more age on them.
our total sheep hunters in the field with tags will decrease by 120 per year roughly and unless 120 new hunters come in every year then it cant do anything but help a little. After the first 5 years guys will alternate back in and hopefully there are a few more rams running around out there.
Id rather wait the 5 years and be quarenteed a tag than have it go on draw and take my chances there.
SG

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I just figure that 600 guys sitting out during a 5 year wait will decrease the amount of rams shot which in turn should alow a few rams the time to get a little more age on them.
our total sheep hunters in the field with tags will decrease by 120 per year roughly and unless 120 new hunters come in every year then it cant do anything but help a little. After the first 5 years guys will alternate back in and hopefully there are a few more rams running around out there.
Id rather wait the 5 years and be quarenteed a tag than have it go on draw and take my chances there.
SG

I think the thing that you are missing is that resident success runs about 5% in non-draw areas. Sure if success rates were high and you took hunters out of the field, harvest would go down but right now, you've got several thousand hunters looking for 140 rams. Do you really think that taking a small percentage of hunters out of the field is going to change the number of rams killed. Is that small group of elite sheep hunters so effective and the remainder so inept that sheep won't be killed. Come on...harvest numbers won't change a fraction. It will just be easier for the 95% that are unsuccessful to be successful.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think the thing that you are missing is that resident success runs about 5% in non-draw areas. Sure if success rates were high and you took hunters out of the field, harvest would go down but right now, you've got several thousand hunters looking for 140 rams. Do you really think that taking a small percentage of hunters out of the field is going to change the number of rams killed. Is that small group of elite sheep hunters so effective and the remainder so inept that sheep won't be killed. Come on...harvest numbers won't change a fraction. It will just be easier for the 95% that are unsuccessful to be successful.

We can argue about this forever and get no where. All im saying is that killing so many young rams every year isnt the answer.
What do you think B.C would be like if guys shot every young full curl stone ram? Why do outfitters in B.C, Yukon and NWT set strict age limits? So that them big rams have a chance to grow. They know that if you shoot all the young rams that reach full curl then them big old twister rams wont be around.

What do you think B.C would be like if guys shot every young full curl stone ram? Why do outfitters in B.C, Yukon and NWT set strict age limits? So that them big rams have a chance to grow. They know that if you shoot all the young rams that reach full curl then them big old twister rams wont be around.

Huh? You can kill any full curl ram in BC or the Yukon regardless of age. We are talking resident hunters in Alberta...not outfitters. Some BC and Yukon outfitters have the luxury of remote areas and can manage herds to some degree but residents can come in and shoot any full curl they want...plus I think we've already discusseed the difficulty of field aging bighorns versus thinhorns.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

Myself and everybody I know that hunts sheep had no one showing us anything. As for sheep hunting none of us have ever got a ram.Sheep hunters are like a secret society.They dont tell anybody anything.And no we are not the guys in the truck or on the quad. Lots of hard miles on the foot.

[cowboyhunter]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Ok, after talking to a few Bio's it appears that the sheep populations in the province in most areas are doing fine. In fact the willmore area is actually high right now. The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

It is important for the for the members of this forum to realize that the 5 year wait will NOT increase trophy potential. It will only change who shoots the sheep.


As born and raised Albertan I know as many of you know that this province was bulit on hard work and sweat. We work hard and play hard. I feel it would be unfair to punished those same hard working, taxpaying, Albertans(who own the resource) for busting their butts off on the mountain.

Cheers

To have sheep permits is a definite priveledge, but it has gotten way out of control.From the day that they were saleable it has lost the real reason to be in the mountains. I have guided in the Willmore 30 years ago and was instructed to walk skylines for days before Resident season opened as to drive the rams into the brush until later in the year when just the Non-residents were out there.There are many ways APOS is shafting the residents of this great province by having a direct line to Edmonton.The money the outfitters are putting up for tags is on their own accord,and some may think that they are prostituting our wildlife.