Employer making someone work for free?

[trophybook]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

So I'm a 3rd party at a fab shop in AB, where the foreman makes guys work for free or else they are fired.

Example: Welders get repairs, he makes them fix it on their own time or they can hop in their truck and leave. Another example, making a guy work the whole day for free cutting apart spools or he has to hop in his truck and find a new job.


Is this even legal? I know some of the guys who have worked for free are asians who don't speak english well... so right there they're being taken advantage of.


Does anyone on AO have an answer? CLAC shop.

I personally would ignore it. As a former clac member and steward it will fall on deaf ears. Clac is for the employer hence the clause written into every clac agreement states that if you strike your fired.

[FishHunterPro]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Definitely not legal and definitely shady. If I were them, I would be documenting all the free hours and I have a feeling they will get paid for it all via the Labour Board.

Your right but they better do it sooner than later because you can only get 6 months back paid.

[sweld]

If it’s employees it could be a fine line. But contractors, if you don’t like it go else where


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[Rig-Rat]

I'm a bit confused, if they aren't getting paid, what's the harm in being "fired"? Can't loose income as your saying there isn't income to loose. Of course it's not legal to make people work for nothing. I don't know how you fellas operate but I'm not getting paid I'm out of there. Not into donating my time while buddy makes profit. Now if they messed up, and there was an agreement where they had to fix screw ups on own time, maybe sure but unless happens alot to said employee I would think should be paid for that also.

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[jstubbs]

^ Sounds to me like the harm is they are getting paid, just not for all the work they do, so by quitting or getting fired they're going from working lets say 60 hours but only getting paid 45 of those to working 0 and getting paid for zero. Neither is ideal but like others have posted if you need the income to survive and finding another job isn't easy, the former is more ideal.

This is a big issue for people on varying types of work visas (or similar) who need the employment to stay in Canada legally. Since OP stated some don't speak English, that could be the case.

[Immigrant]

You mention Asians that don’t speak english well. Are they foreign workers, here on work permits? Did the employer sponsor them? He may be threatening to fire them and send them “back home” if they don’t do as he says. They will probably do anything to stay in the country, they are too scared to say something and don’t know their rights.
The above is pure speculation. I comment without having all the facts

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-...ed-rights.html

Edit: jstubbs beat me to it

[WhiteTailAB]

Not contractors, employees. Not on salary. Not banking hours/vacation. Paid hourly. "Give me a days work for free or you're gone" is how it goes.


To answer the newest question, they're not TFWs it IS possible for non TFWs to speak poor english and not know their worker's rights.

Every welder here has gotten repairs (lol) it seems only when certain welders who get a few in a row get the "work for free" talk because there are some english speaking welders that seem to get a free pass.

[AndrewM]

So are they working for free to fix the mistakes they made? Or free work to compensate for the mistakes they made?

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I feel the love for teachers.... can’t give the current specifics regarding collective agreements but they are probably not too different from the good old days....Where teachers were paid based on instructional hours plus additional “assigned time” which essentially fell far short of the number of hours devoted to instruction related activities. There was no pay for extra-curricular, “clubs”, open houses, parent-teacher interviews, graduation activities...etc, etc. Teachers were essentially paid by the day and have never been paid for any holidays at Xmas, Easter, summer. Not paid for coming back to work a week before school starts in Sept. Paid days were 200 with nothing beyond that. Miss a day for exceptions not covered by agreement and they are docked 1/200th of their annual salary.
Teachers cannot collect EI during summer months because they choose to take their 10 month seasonal salary over 12 months.
Don’t know of any current data but in my day, most teachers worked in excess of 50 hrs a week.

Sorry for the off topic reply but had to correct this post. Lots of teachers have numerous "sick days" around report card time and throughout the year whenever they need the extra time off. Not all teachers are working 50 hour weeks. Some are in for 8 and out at 3:30. Not all teachers are the same. Yes some are hard working and there for the students but let's not kid ourselves as some are there for the money and time off during summer and holidays.

[jrowan]

It is also important to note that even if you are salaried you must be paid overtime unless you fall under some specific categories. Welding would not be one of them.

Also regarding mistakes and poor performance employers cannot take money out of your paycheque or have you work for free to fix it. It is a cost they have to eat or fire the employee for bad performance.

[WhiteTailAB]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

So are they working for free to fix the mistakes they made? Or free work to compensate for the mistakes they made?

Free to compensate for their mistakes. IE you got too many repairs now you ca cut apart this header on your own time 10hrs for free.

That's what I am hearing, however I don't know if payroll pays them or not at the end of the day as I am not an employee of this company.

[JDK71]

Originally Posted by ghfalls

If you’re a contractor, and you’re making mistakes you should be fixing them on your own time. Not sure if the Asian guys are though.

yep I agree if you are a contractor you need to know how to do your job

[260 Rem]

Andrew...there are “good” and “poor” employees in every occupational category. Most jobs are done “on site” but some like teaching require considerable “unseen” time after hours, and unless one actually works that reality may not appreciate the entire scope of the job. I don’t know what is going on with the employees that are the subject of the OP (and I am no fan of bully bosses), but we don’t know if there is some arrangement between them and their employer. If in fact the employees are being bullied to provide free labor, then it should be dealt with, and is the kind of activity that feeds union organization. On the other hand, if there is an arrangement, they may not welcome outside intervention.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Andrew...there are “good” and “poor” employees in every occupational category. Most jobs are done “on site” but some like teaching require considerable “unseen” time after hours, and unless one actually works that reality may not appreciate the entire scope of the job. I don’t know what is going on with the employees that are the subject of the OP (and I am no fan of bully bosses), but we don’t know if there is some arrangement between them and their employer. If in fact the employees are being bullied to provide free labor, then it should be dealt with, and is the kind of activity that feeds union organization. On the other hand, if there is an arrangement, they may not welcome outside intervention.

Completely agree. But if they are working that much free time to fix repairs then I wouldn’t want to deal with that company at all. Time to train them to be competent or hire competent people. Hard to know for sure what the problem is or the size of the problem without all the details.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I feel the love for teachers.... can’t give the current specifics regarding collective agreements but they are probably not too different from the good old days....Where teachers were paid based on instructional hours plus additional “assigned time” which essentially fell far short of the number of hours devoted to instruction related activities. There was no pay for extra-curricular, “clubs”, open houses, parent-teacher interviews, graduation activities...etc, etc. Teachers were essentially paid by the day and have never been paid for any holidays at Xmas, Easter, summer. Not paid for coming back to work a week before school starts in Sept. Paid days were 200 with nothing beyond that. Miss a day for exceptions not covered by agreement and they are docked 1/200th of their annual salary.
Teachers cannot collect EI during summer months because they choose to take their 10 month seasonal salary over 12 months.
Don’t know of any current data but in my day, most teachers worked in excess of 50 hrs a week.

Boo hoo. I work in excess of 50 HR/ week as a tradesman. + after hours that I don't get paid for ( phone calls after hours, dealing with trades after hours, dealing with home owners after hours, emails texts...ECT) 12 months of the year and my yearly income is less than a teacher's. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't want the job as teacher but they get paid very fairly for the job.

OP, sounds like a shady deal for these workers but I'd stay out of it unless it affects your job personally. You might give some friendly advise to some of the workers so they can fully understand their rights though.

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

I’m sure that their are some type of labor laws that would say it isn’t right but I guess it really depends on your beliefs. Everyone makes mistakes as should be expected, we are human after all.
Possibly spending a day cutting stuff up would improve your skills and maybe mind set? I don’t know. All I can say is I care a lot about what I do and my career and if I should make a mistake I would have no issues repairing it on my own time and I realize time is money and they are in business to make it. If that mistake is made because of lack of information/communication etc...I would probably have an issue working for free but wouldn’t raise a problem with it. I know where the door is.


Equal treatment for everyone and special treatment for no one is a good leadership tactic.

[ctd]

My friend does Non Destructive Testing. When he goes to a few shops they growl pretty bad because they know he is going to fail their work. He expects perfection from equipment that lives may depend on.
They are paid by the hour piece work if that makes sense. But are responsible for their mistakes. The company swallows anything under a hour to fix. Anything over is in the Welder who performed the work.
They hate him.
What was happening was when work was slow the guys would mess up all the time so they could pad their hours.
When times got busy there was so many bad habits they had hard time putting out a quailty product. Let alone keeping on budget or on time. Having to fix to many mistakes and major mistakes results in lost contracts. They let everyone go and implemented their new policy.
So far it has resulted in a quailty product but mistakes still happen. That's where Quality Control is supposed to do their job.

Yes some places do require their workers to be liable for their mistakes. Simply put the workers screwed themselves by taking advantage of the process.
As for the labour laws. It's simple terms of working conditions results in agreements between the workers and the employer for employer employee expectations.

Someone is going to say those shops need a Union to protect the workers. Well if the workers cant do their job correctly the first time the companies wont have any customers to pay the Bill's. The workers make good money and have good benifits.

[WhiteTailAB]

Originally Posted by ctd

My friend does Non Destructive Testing. When he goes to a few shops they growl pretty bad because they know he is going to fail their work. He expects perfection from equipment that lives may depend on.
They are paid by the hour piece work if that makes sense. But are responsible for their mistakes. The company swallows anything under a hour to fix. Anything over is in the Welder who performed the work.
They hate him.
What was happening was when work was slow the guys would mess up all the time so they could pad their hours.
When times got busy there was so many bad habits they had hard time putting out a quailty product. Let alone keeping on budget or on time. Having to fix to many mistakes and major mistakes results in lost contracts. They let everyone go and implemented their new policy.
So far it has resulted in a quailty product but mistakes still happen. That's where Quality Control is supposed to do their job.

Yes some places do require their workers to be liable for their mistakes. Simply put the workers screwed themselves by taking advantage of the process.
As for the labour laws. It's simple terms of working conditions results in agreements between the workers and the employer for employer employee expectations.

Someone is going to say those shops need a Union to protect the workers. Well if the workers cant do their job correctly the first time the companies wont have any customers to pay the Bill's. The workers make good money and have good benifits.

Sounds like the shop needs to get some new welders if they fail that often or the technician's work should be audited if he's writing that many fail reports.

There's perfection and then theres "acceptable to code" in some instances the shop can bill the NDE company for calling repairs that don't actually fail to code. I've worked with guys who would mark up every little indication and I've worked with guys who actually knew the code.

[bloopbloob]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

Sounds like the shop needs to get some new welders if they fail that often or the technician's work should be audited if he's writing that many fail reports.

There's perfection and then theres "acceptable to code" in some instances the shop can bill the NDE company for calling repairs that don't actually fail to code. I've worked with guys who would mark up every little indication and I've worked with guys who actually knew the code.

I'm a QC at a very large fab shop(s). I need to know the codes for CWB, ASME, API 650 and am also a ULC gatekeeper. I deal with NDT companies all the time. They are usually pretty good from my experience. Never really had to fight anything with them. I inspect the product before they ever get called in for 3rd party documented inspection. They have never tried, but wouldn't be able to give me some BS reports. I know a bit. All has been pretty good in my experiences. Expensive though! Haha. Not my money! If they are failing, they need to improve, change positions, or hit the road..... That's my policy

[bloopbloob]

Originally Posted by ctd

My friend does Non Destructive Testing. When he goes to a few shops they growl pretty bad because they know he is going to fail their work. He expects perfection from equipment that lives may depend on.
They are paid by the hour piece work if that makes sense. But are responsible for their mistakes. The company swallows anything under a hour to fix. Anything over is in the Welder who performed the work.
They hate him.
What was happening was when work was slow the guys would mess up all the time so they could pad their hours.
When times got busy there was so many bad habits they had hard time putting out a quailty product. Let alone keeping on budget or on time. Having to fix to many mistakes and major mistakes results in lost contracts. They let everyone go and implemented their new policy.
So far it has resulted in a quailty product but mistakes still happen. That's where Quality Control is supposed to do their job.

Yes some places do require their workers to be liable for their mistakes. Simply put the workers screwed themselves by taking advantage of the process.
As for the labour laws. It's simple terms of working conditions results in agreements between the workers and the employer for employer employee expectations.

Someone is going to say those shops need a Union to protect the workers. Well if the workers cant do their job correctly the first time the companies wont have any customers to pay the Bill's. The workers make good money and have good benifits.

Your buddy should be proud of what he's doing, failing their work, if deserved. It's no joke with a lot of things built, peoples lives are at risk. There is a reason it's a compulsory trade. Good on him. Enjoy being the dingus everyone hates to see! Saves lives. I take my experience and schooling and side training very seriously. I will stop shiite instantly on a daily basis. I DON'T CARE what others think of me. I know what I know, and it's not happening if I don't like it......

[ctd]

Originally Posted by bloopbloob

Your buddy should be proud of what he's doing, failing their work, if deserved. It's no joke with a lot of things built, peoples lives are at risk. There is a reason it's a compulsory trade. Good on him. Enjoy being the dingus everyone hates to see! Saves lives. I take my experience and schooling and side training very seriously. I will stop shiite instantly on a daily basis. I DON'T CARE what others think of me. I know what I know, and it's not happening if I don't like it......

He lives sleeps and eats his job. He is very skilled, very well trained and in high demand at the places he works at. It's the non regular customers who growl when he comes around. Because he does his job well almost to well. But like he says my name is on the report it's my reputation and my liability if I pass marginal or bad work that fails.
Ultimatley It is up to the company to perform the recommended repairs.

[WhiteTailAB]

Originally Posted by bloopbloob

I'm a QC at a very large fab shop(s). I need to know the codes for CWB, ASME, API 650 and am also a ULC gatekeeper. I deal with NDT companies all the time. They are usually pretty good from my experience. Never really had to fight anything with them. I inspect the product before they ever get called in for 3rd party documented inspection. They have never tried, but wouldn't be able to give me some BS reports. I know a bit. All has been pretty good in my experiences. Expensive though! Haha. Not my money! If they are failing, they need to improve, change positions, or hit the road..... That's my policy

In my experience its 20/80 - 20% of the techs are great 80% suck and you wonder how they got a ticket. Most squeak by, when you talk to them you wonder if they even know their own procedures.

[bloopbloob]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

In my experience its 20/80 - 20% of the techs are great 80% suck and you wonder how they got a ticket. Most squeak by, when you talk to them you wonder if they even know their own procedures.

I bring in the same company all the time. Don't really want to name anyone. But they have been good to deal with, and do a good job. No issues with their reports. When they have found something, I agree with the call. If there are companies out there calling things out unnecessarily, it wouldn't get past me...

[bloopbloob]

Originally Posted by ctd

He lives sleeps and eats his job. He is very skilled, very well trained and in high demand at the places he works at. It's the non regular customers who growl when he comes around. Because he does his job well almost to well. But like he says my name is on the report it's my reputation and my liability if I pass marginal or bad work that fails.
Ultimatley It is up to the company to perform the recommended repairs.

Completely agree with him. With ASME, I'm 100% accountable for employee certification. American system, self regulation. All is good until something goes wrong. Then they come back chasing the paperwork. Well it's my name on the welders certs and test results. My name on creating weld procedures. Big liability issue there.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Boo hoo. I work in excess of 50 HR/ week as a tradesman. + after hours that I don't get paid for ( phone calls after hours, dealing with trades after hours, dealing with home owners after hours, emails texts...ECT) 12 months of the year and my yearly income is less than a teacher's. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't want the job as teacher but they get paid very fairly for the job..

For the record most teachers I know I cant stand. It's a profession where theres really no constructive criticism from their peers. Most end up pretty pretentious and arrogant. But do not compare your employment to theirs.

They work in a battleground. Dealing with 30 kids and their know it all parents would be ridiculous difficult. In today's class rooms their are kids with all types of issues that require different approaches. From aspergers to autism.

Plus if you truly are a person that cares you still have to deal with douchbags disrespecting you telling you how easy you've got it. On top of all that you've got tons of prep work that isnt accounted for.

Whether you agree or not they shape the future. And for that they deserve every penny.

[Badgerbadger]

"Labour board"? "Union"?

Sounds like red tape to me.

[WhiteTailAB]

The way kids are turning out these days I'd say the teachers are over paid and under skilled.

Give out some damn zeros and fails and reduce the PD/drink in banff days for teachers.

[SuperCub]

delete

[SuperCub]

Originally Posted by ctd

My friend does Non Destructive Testing. When he goes to a few shops they growl pretty bad because they know he is going to fail their work.

I do the same work. RT on code welds.

I don't fail welds, the welder fails welds!

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

The way kids are turning out these days I'd say the teachers are over paid and under skilled.

Give out some damn zeros and fails and reduce the PD/drink in banff days for teachers.

You can thank the parents/society for that.. Teachers do the best they can within their means. I hope you're kidding, if you think teachers don't want to be able to fail and punish kids accordingly. Why would they want to deal with someone who can't read in Gr.5?

But thanks to our new "think of the children" society, they can't do much.