Jasper National Park hunting agreement

[Salavee]

While I agree with you on the squabbles in general,my post was pertaining to the particilar one this thread refers to. No squabble intended.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Theres been ongoing squabbles between races and societies throughout time, throughtout the world. Heck...watch the news this morning and the conquering is happening as we speak.
Heads were rolling in Europe way before whiteman came over to North America to ''take it over''.
We all have that history if you really want to go back and study it...regardless of where you come from.

Yes all throughout history. There are very few examples if any where the conquered were granted compensation or special rights. Always been survival of the fittest.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by sioux 1876

I am a treaty Indian.

My grandfathers, grandfathers hunted This land long before there was a park, before there was an Alberta before there was a Canada.

You guys are quick to get upset and frustrated.

The end goal is to manage and protect the animals. Just like you have bad apples we do too. I am not speaking for everyone but we frown or look down on individuals that trophy hunt.

I am sorry that you all feel this way. But your government has made this possible, take it up with them.

In the meantime I wil continue to hunt our traditional lands that we never surrendered, Canada cannot provide a bill of sale for this land.

On this site you have very little education or input from a treaty indian. I watch all the treads and have been talked to by the moderators about voicing my concern. To “tread lightly” or to watch my comments.

It is sad that you guys do not know our views or end goals. But you continue to benefit as a country from our natural resources.

How many of you actually know how to greet or say hello in your areas to that tribe?

How many of you know what treaty you are in?

Guarantee my post will be deleted, and I will be booted because the reality is…you don’t want to see a Treaty Indians points or views.

Eyahr Hey Nakoda

No reason you post would be deleted and I doubt you will be booted but a welcome addition to it may be for you to post exacltly what your points of view and your real end goals are. Some of us are willing to listen. Another is... just what N resourses you are referring to. Ores, Oil, etc? , or Fish & Wildlife ? And no, I don't know how to say Hello in your language as my original language was Gaelic. Tell me, in Gaelic, what treaty I might be registered in.
I'm not intending any disrespect in any way to you personally nor to any FN at all . Just would like to see some clarifications on a few points you made.

Are you sure that your Ancestors didn't originate in the (US) Dakotas around 1795?

[alder]

Ok, you can hunt your “traditional lands” now national parks, but you get to do it with “traditional” implements, and not even steel tipped arrows. No carbon fiber rifles, no scopes, no nothing. Cuz you guys didn’t bring those to the party, right? Oh yeah, and no KUIU, no Cabelas, not even rubber soled boots. Right? Cuz it’s not yours just like the land ain’t ours. Right? Ok, pal? Give me a break. Enough already.

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot. You don’t get any car or truck to drive there from your home. Ok?

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by alder

Ok, you can hunt your “traditional lands” now national parks, but you get to do it with “traditional” implements, and not even steel tipped arrows. No carbon fiber rifles, no scopes, no nothing. Cuz you guys didn’t bring those to the party, right? Oh yeah, and no KUIU, no Cabelas, not even rubber soled boots. Right? Cuz it’s not yours just like the land ain’t ours. Right? Ok, pal? Give me a break. Enough already.

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot. You don’t get any car or truck to drive there from your home. Ok?

Is this the constructive conversation someone was alluding to before?

[Noring1]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

Is this the constructive conversation someone was alluding to before?

Sometimes facts are inconvenient….


The simple fact is FN are free to take to the woods, live wherever they want on any crown land, and live the traditional lifestyle they desire. Nobody is stopping them…

Unfortunately the vast majority enjoy IPhones, new pickups and modern medicine, none of which they would have if Whitey hadn’t showed up.

Like I said, sometimes facts are inconvenient….

[outofbounds]

One fact is the Stoney and Simpcw nations are going to hunt in Jasper, they will take said numbers of certain species and celebrate their treaty with agreement from Parks Canada.
And that is one fact that is very inconvenient for many including groups outside this forum. For various reasons, and to each their own on it, but as many stated in this thread, when others have been conquered or suffered loss from past events in history, the same goes when some see it through to once again hunt historical areas as they once did prior to being forcibly removed, got to live with it...

[Grizzly Adams1]

So, riddle me this. How come fishing is allowed in National parks, but hunting is a No, No. ?

Grizz

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by Noring1

Sometimes facts are inconvenient….


The simple fact is FN are free to take to the woods, live wherever they want on any crown land, and live the traditional lifestyle they desire. Nobody is stopping them…

Unfortunately the vast majority enjoy IPhones, new pickups and modern medicine, none of which they would have if Whitey hadn’t showed up.

Like I said, sometimes facts are inconvenient….

Yup, Traditional means the circumstances and implements of that time.

Grizz

[ghfalls]

I like this part of the release from the sheep foundation.


We also question what the need is to allow the Simpcw and Stoney to hunt in the park in the first place. In addition to the Simpcw and Stoney’s own reserve land, there are 100,000,000 acres of Crown land to hunt on in Alberta and 85% of Alberta’s parks systems provide hunting opportunities. In fact, there are more opportunities to hunt on easily accessible public land in Alberta than perhaps any other jurisdiction in the world. Simply put, there is no shortage of places to hunt in Alberta. We do not understand the need to hunt in a national park which is specifically designated as wilderness reserve protected from hunting.

We would like Parks Canada to provide their reasoning that the 100,000,000 acres available for hunting in Alberta is not enough for the Simpcw and Stoney and that they need to hunt in a national park.

With great respect we acknowledge and revere the importance of aboriginal peoples’ traditional hunting heritage. Yet, we must consider that big game animals in Jasper are habituated to humans. In many cases, sheep and elk in Jasper are tame. We ask whether shooting a tame animal, outside of a regulated hunting season, in a national park, with a rifle is a ‘traditional hunt’? We also note that some of the biggest bull elk and bighorn sheep rams on the entire continent frequent the roadside ditches in Jasper. We ask is the proposed hunt a trophy hunt or is it a traditional sustenance hunt?

[elkhunter11]

To make things simpler, perhaps the biologists should just dart the animals they want, and remove them to a small pen outside of the park for these people to shoot them? It's not really a hunt anyways, and it would prevent having firearms, or hunting in a national park.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Noring1

Sometimes facts are inconvenient….


The simple fact is FN are free to take to the woods, live wherever they want on any crown land, and live the traditional lifestyle they desire. Nobody is stopping them…

Unfortunately the vast majority enjoy IPhones, new pickups and modern medicine, none of which they would have if Whitey hadn’t showed up.

Like I said, sometimes facts are inconvenient….

You give 'Whitey' far more credit than they deserve. The all seeing, all knowing, only creators of modern technology.....

[501s]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Now we can't get inside the minds of indigenous hunters, but I fundamentally believe that people are people, and no group of people on this planet have any special abilities to feel or experience this world in a way that other people can't. Therefore when these issues come up, it rankles. It just does.

What an inciteful sentience. I love it. We are all the same. Equals.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

You give 'Whitey' far more credit than they deserve. The all seeing, all knowing, only creators of modern technology.....

Oddly enough, I haven't met a FN person yet that doesn't use at least some modern inventions like electricity, internal combustion engines, telephone, synthetic materials, eyeglasses etc. The ones posting on this forum certainly can't claim that they avoid modern technology.

[outofbounds]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

Yup, Traditional means the circumstances and implements of that time.

Grizz

In respect of the time period and geographical location of concern, in 1907, Jasper Forest Park was established as the second transcontinental railway was set to cut through the region opening up recreational opportunities and railline destinations. The government of the time protected the area as Jasper Forest Park. It is well documented that prior to 1907 pistols and rifles were used by hunters, trappers, and explorers during this period, including Indigenous hunters, trappers and guides. Firearms would have been made available via fur trade forts 167 years prior via trade for made beaver. With the interior forts at Rocky Mountain House and Fort Edmonton the trade for said firearms would have continued by those plying their trade in the quest for beaver and expansion west. The firearms available evolved over time to include lever action repeating rifles of the 1907 era. Up to and including the period of forcible removal and establishment of the park, firearms had been used for hunting within the identified region by both Indigenous and non-Indigenous. Various other methods and tools were also used. Yes, there was no carbon fiber Uber magnums with optics, nor latest camo in gore-tex and thinsulate variants used but one cannot deny that firearms were available and used and identified as being utilized during the period including up to the date of 1907 as to the provisions of ammunition in the numbered treaties. Stick, sinew and flint tipped arrows, and snares on game trails were not the only weapons utilized during the period.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Oddly enough, I haven't met a FN person yet that doesn't use at least some modern inventions like electricity, internal combustion engines, telephone, synthetic materials, eyeglasses etc. The ones posting on this forum certainly can't claim that they avoid modern technology.

Oddly enough the I haven't met any race that does not use the resources at their disposal in the modern world.

From the article posted.

Simpcw First Nation and Stoney Nation in Alberta have signed an agreement over mutual hunting privileges within their respective grounds on the land now known as Jasper National Park.

In a statement issued Monday (Oct. 16), Simpcw, Stoney Nation and Parks Canada say the agreement is based on a historic nation to nation agreement that was originally signed in 1895.

This is an agreement to manage the game inside the park, not a pizzing match about throwing sticks and running around in loin cloths like their ancestors did.

Do I agree that one specific group has access to this special resource, I certainly do not. The resource needs managing, this special interest group has mainly moved to the front of the line in respects to this, so I am not surprised in the least.

The hate in this thread is terrible, this is nothing new and will continue well past my lifetime on this rock. Funny though, this same interest group still lives in sub modern times and many don't even have clean drinking water like the rest of us.

[burbotman]

Originally Posted by ghfalls

I like this part of the release from the sheep foundation.


We also question what the need is to allow the Simpcw and Stoney to hunt in the park in the first place. In addition to the Simpcw and Stoney’s own reserve land, there are 100,000,000 acres of Crown land to hunt on in Alberta and 85% of Alberta’s parks systems provide hunting opportunities. In fact, there are more opportunities to hunt on easily accessible public land in Alberta than perhaps any other jurisdiction in the world. Simply put, there is no shortage of places to hunt in Alberta. We do not understand the need to hunt in a national park which is specifically designated as wilderness reserve protected from hunting.

We would like Parks Canada to provide their reasoning that the 100,000,000 acres available for hunting in Alberta is not enough for the Simpcw and Stoney and that they need to hunt in a national park.

With great respect we acknowledge and revere the importance of aboriginal peoples’ traditional hunting heritage. Yet, we must consider that big game animals in Jasper are habituated to humans. In many cases, sheep and elk in Jasper are tame. We ask whether shooting a tame animal, outside of a regulated hunting season, in a national park, with a rifle is a ‘traditional hunt’? We also note that some of the biggest bull elk and bighorn sheep rams on the entire continent frequent the roadside ditches in Jasper. We ask is the proposed hunt a trophy hunt or is it a traditional sustenance hunt?

Good last paragraph, Really from my perspective it is a ceremonial Cull

[MooseRiverTrapper]

It’s about pushing everything to the limit. Letting the country know that every inch of this country is apparently theirs. It’s all “traditional” lands.

[Noring1]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

You give 'Whitey' far more credit than they deserve. The all seeing, all knowing, only creators of modern technology.....

I’ve had this discussion at length with various FN associates and friends alike, the simple fact is you can’t have it both ways.

FN that are fighting for traditional ways and blame the departure from this on European settlers have a choice to live without those modern conveniences.

And if you’re implying that left alone without outside interference, FN who continued to live the traditional lifestyle and exist as they did 200 years ago would have advanced technologically on a similarly lateral plane, you would be the first person I’ve ever heard suggest this. Including every FN person I know…

[Noring1]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

many don't even have clean drinking water like the rest of us.

A little off topic I know, but do you know the percentage of occupied land in Canada that doesn’t have “clean drinking water” according to the government standards being used for that claim?

Keep in mind nobody that obtains water from a lake, river, or drilled well without being treated in a commercial government regulated water treatment plant has water that meets their standards….

[ghfalls]

Yeah, my well water isn’t technically clean drinking water either. I love it

[Noring1]

Originally Posted by ghfalls

Yeah, my well water isn’t technically clean drinking water either. I love it

Me too bud!

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by Noring1

Me too bud!

Me 3.

The horror. I pay handsomely to live like that too.

What a crock.

[fishnguy]

I really don’t get the “they need to use the weapons they used way back when” in their traditional hunts argument. Is the hunt and the process that comes with it a tradition or the tools used? Clearly, it is the former. Tools used have very little to do with it. I don’t believe this “they use guns” argument holds any water and will never get anyone anywhere. The fact that firearms are used in a National Park, where they are otherwise prohibited (for the most part), and the hunt itself in a National Park is what the issues are.





Note, that it doesn’t even matter for the purpose of these regulations if it is a bow or a rifle:



In other words,



As for area closures,



Since these has nothing to do with resource protection, the closure is due to the protection of visitors from, basically, an illegal activity within the Park.

I think this is completely ridiculous, no matter how one looks at it, regardless of how many animals are harvested and what their heads have on them.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

The hate in this thread is terrible, this is nothing new and will continue well past my lifetime on this rock. Funny though, this same interest group still lives in sub modern times and many don't even have clean drinking water like the rest of us.

Leave it to the government to drive the wedge even deeper between groups of people.

As for the clean drinking water, how many rural people have potable water coming out of their tap? Water business is a thing for a reason.
Get up into the peace country and water is coming from dugouts. What about them?
I've drank out of the tap in Calgary. I don't consider that potable at all

[cowmanbob]

I’d rather drink my aquifer water instead of the reconstituted sewage that’s known as town water.

[Pekan]

I'm amazed this thread is still alive.

I'll throw more gasoline on this fire:

The whole idea that anyone in Canada is given hunting rights based on race is well, racist. Aren't we trying end racism?

[Phil McCracken]

Parks Canada = Government of Canada.

I rest my case...

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by Pekan

I'm amazed this thread is still alive.

I'll throw more gasoline on this fire:

The whole idea that anyone in Canada is given hunting rights based on race is well, racist. Aren't we trying end racism?

It's also extremely racist when the users are telling indigenous people to live like it's 1880 because it suits their vision of what their life should be like. We have 3 or 4 pages of posts like that so far.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

It's also extremely racist when the users are telling indigenous people to live like it's 1880 because it suits their vision of what their life should be like. We have 3 or 4 pages of posts like that so far.

This forum is a group of hunters (and fishermen).
You think no one should be riled up about this? One group and one group only is going to be allowed access to a national park and conduct a trophy hunt with firearms. How is that even right? If I was caught packing a firearm in a national park for protection I'd be drawn and quartered and yet others will be in the park shooting down big park rams and bulls with a rifle under the guise of a ceremonial hunt.
Of course there is an uproar!! It's a crock.

I'd be a little more for it if all the heads remained in the park and the meat was used in the ceremonial feast....but we know that ain't gonna happen.

It will be a trophy hunt plain and simple, same as much of the "subsistence" hunting that goes on year round