Big sheep changes

[mad mountain mike]

Rather than restrict hunter opportunity why not restrict mode of travel. Motorized transportation has been restricted in a lot of areas why not restrict horse travel during sheep season. Stop outfitters and hunters alike from hauling everything but the kitchen sink into the back country for two months. Make it a backpack only hunt, that would surely reduce the harvest deeper in and along the park boundaries.

[Justahunter]

How about some ideas like
1 Change the current 9 weeks season into 5x 2 week seasons. Take your pick which season you hunt and we get a longer season. But put the first/last season on draw.
2 Keep the current 4/5 rule but if you kill a short sheep you lose the next available opportunity. Means you gotta wait 4 yrs instead of 2 but you keep the sheep. If you are an outfitter ,you lose the next available permit for 1 year. Currently bringing in a short sheep you take a ticket but can hunt next year.
3 One sheep every 5 yrs
4 Sheep WMU `s have open cougar quota`s
5 Sheep WMU have additional hunting opportunity for cougars similar to the rest of the province ( you gotta wonder why these Zone`s that were excluded in the first place)
6 Where it can be proven that there is a sheep herd dynamics issue then additonal measures be taken to control predators until the pop. recovers.
7 Get some real training for sheep ageing. They very seldom get it right and are almost always underageing the rams from what I hear
Just some brainstorming

[H380]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

How about some ideas like
1 Change the current 9 weeks season into 5x 2 week seasons. Take your pick which season you hunt and we get a longer season. But put the first/last season on draw.
2 Keep the current 4/5 rule but if you kill a short sheep you lose the next available opportunity. Means you gotta wait 4 yrs instead of 2 but you keep the sheep. If you are an outfitter ,you lose the next available permit for 1 year. Currently bringing in a short sheep you take a ticket but can hunt next year.
3 One sheep every 5 yrs
4 Sheep WMU `s have open cougar quota`s
5 Sheep WMU have additional hunting opportunity for cougars similar to the rest of the province ( you gotta wonder why these Zone`s that were excluded in the first place)
6 Where it can be proven that there is a sheep herd dynamics issue then additonal measures be taken to control predators until the pop. recovers.
7 Get some real training for sheep ageing. They very seldom get it right and are almost always underageing the rams from what I hear
Just some brainstorming

Agreed with all of the above .^^

[bdub]

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Feb03-2012.pdf

I would encourage sheep hunters to have a look at the draft. I would caution against putting to much stock into Coltmans research as there are some serious holes in his theories. But there is some valuable information here otherwise.

Another great piece of information on sheep is the book Mountain Sheep, a Study in Behaviour and Evolution by Valerious Geist. If you want to educate yourself on the factors affecting the health and management of our sheep herd it is a must read. Hard to find now but you can pick up copies online once in a while.

[bdub]

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...&%20Watson.pdf


http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...0-Heimer-1.pdf

A good discussion on ram harvest strategy showing that we hunters can have it all when it comes to sheep hunting by managing for more class 4 Rams in our sheep herds. Heavy reading but lots of great information on managing our herds properly.

[cowboyhunter]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

How about some ideas like
1 Change the current 9 weeks season into 5x 2 week seasons. Take your pick which season you hunt and we get a longer season. But put the first/last season on draw.
2 Keep the current 4/5 rule but if you kill a short sheep you lose the next available opportunity. Means you gotta wait 4 yrs instead of 2 but you keep the sheep. If you are an outfitter ,you lose the next available permit for 1 year. Currently bringing in a short sheep you take a ticket but can hunt next year.
3 One sheep every 5 yrs
4 Sheep WMU `s have open cougar quota`s
5 Sheep WMU have additional hunting opportunity for cougars similar to the rest of the province ( you gotta wonder why these Zone`s that were excluded in the first place)
6 Where it can be proven that there is a sheep herd dynamics issue then additonal measures be taken to control predators until the pop. recovers.
7 Get some real training for sheep ageing. They very seldom get it right and are almost always underageing the rams from what I hear
Just some brainstorming

There is no excuse to shoot a short sheep! No way you should keep it! Take away your sheep hunting for a long time ,might help! The rest of your ideas maybe hold some weight.

[woods_walker]

How about some ideas like
1 Change the current 9 weeks season into 5x 2 week seasons. Take your pick which season you hunt and we get a longer season. But put the first/last season on draw.
2 Keep the current 4/5 rule but if you kill a short sheep you lose the next available opportunity. Means you gotta wait 4 yrs instead of 2 but you keep the sheep. If you are an outfitter ,you lose the next available permit for 1 year. Currently bringing in a short sheep you take a ticket but can hunt next year.
3 One sheep every 5 yrs
4 Sheep WMU `s have open cougar quota`s
5 Sheep WMU have additional hunting opportunity for cougars similar to the rest of the province ( you gotta wonder why these Zone`s that were excluded in the first place)
6 Where it can be proven that there is a sheep herd dynamics issue then additonal measures be taken to control predators until the pop. recovers.
7 Get some real training for sheep ageing. They very seldom get it right and are almost always underageing the rams from what I hear
Just some brainstorming

I have to strongly disagree with #2. No way should you be allowed to keep a short sheep. I bet most sheep hunters get their first sheep and hold out for something much larger if they were to ever shoot another. I can see under the way I am interpreting what you typed that a lot of just short sheep will be shot because guys could keep the sheep as 'any sheep is a trophy' and not care if they ever hunt one again, or go with a buddy for the next 4 years and still get a sheep hunting fix. I know when I shot my sheep I went with my friend for his the next year as a tag along and he got one. Now he isn't buying a tag for sheep until I get another sheep which I would like to find a mature full curl and may never shoot another. He still likes getting out sheep hunting. For us it is the trip and journey and not just shooting a sheep.


I wonder about the measurements and how some of the info can be skewed. I shot a 8.5 year old ram, broomed on both sides and in an area where a legal ram isn't living too long. It had short final horn length but good mass and a nice ram for the area. It has 32 and 33" horns and I bet if you just looked at the numbers and didn't see a picture that it is a small ram. If I remember correctly from my registration form there is no mention of brooming and that 3-4 inches of 'horn growth' is no longer there. That is a pretty good difference in horn length/age of ram in my opinion and could be twisted to say that rams aren't growing as big in the area.

[walking buffalo]

Has anyone been Informed as to what concern f&w is trying to solve?


Why offer solutions to an unknown unsubstantiated problem?


Reminds me of Horseshack on Welcome back Kotter..... :lol;


How about if before promoting more restrictions on hunting, we put our efforts into demanding that f&w inform us what their concern is..... ?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Has anyone been Informed as to what concern f&w is trying to solve?


Why offer solutions to an unknown unsubstantiated problem?


Reminds me of Horseshack on Welcome back Kotter..... :lol;


How about if before promoting more restrictions on hunting, we put our efforts into demanding that f&w inform us what their concern is..... ?

The concern is that the percentage of trophy rams left over after hunting season is to low and the effects it has on reproductive success, ewe and ram survival due to the majority of the rutting being done by immature rams.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

The concern is that the percentage of trophy rams left over after hunting season is to low and the effects it has on reproductive success, ewe and ram survival due to the majority of the rutting being done by immature rams.

Where did you get this information from?
Are you just guessing based on previous f&w assertions or have you been able to get f&w to release the concern for the current proposal. ...?
Please do not promote conjecture as fact...

Last time around f&w started their proposal claiming a proven concern of hunting induced genetic selection.... which they backed away from and resorted to the low ram population claim.... which was potentially only valid for two of the ten sheep management areas.

[416 Ultramag]

Here is also another thought,

Put all sheep on draw.

Eg. Lets say that zone ... can support five rams harvested. Put a draw in for ...

The season would run from Sept 1 to Nov 30th. Allowing those five hunters a really quality hunt and would probably harvest great rams.

If a ram is killed they cannot apply for 5 years, no ram killed 2 year wait.

No 999 applications you must always apply for the specific area that you want. If you do not apply you do not lose your priority but also do not gain.

Some areas may have 10 ram allocations others 2, or more and others may be closed due to whatever.

4/5 curl stay in effect everywhere.

Applications cost $50 non refundable if drawn cost $500

Just a thought.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by 416 Ultramag

Here is also another thought,

Put all sheep on draw.

Eg. Lets say that zone ... can support five rams harvested. Put a draw in for ...

The season would run from Sept 1 to Nov 30th. Allowing those five hunters a really quality hunt and would probably harvest great rams.

If a ram is killed they cannot apply for 5 years, no ram killed 2 year wait.

No 999 applications you must always apply for the specific area that you want. If you do not apply you do not lose your priority but also do not gain.

Some areas may have 10 ram allocations others 2, or more and others may be closed due to whatever.

4/5 curl stay in effect everywhere.

Applications cost $50 non refundable if drawn cost $500

Just a thought.

What concern are you trying to address?


Thanks for bringing up the idea of increasing license costs as a technique to limit hunting. I was wondering when that would come into the conversation.


Do you support the idea of having to wait at least twenty years to draw a sheep tag? That would be the minimum wait under current licence sales compared to previous f&w ram harvest goals for new restrictions. ... the true draw wait time will likely be much longer than twenty years, probably double or triple the amount.... so you are really advocating for a once in a lifetime licence regime.

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by 416 Ultramag

Here is also another thought,

Put all sheep on draw.

Eg. Lets say that zone ... can support five rams harvested. Put a draw in for ...

The season would run from Sept 1 to Nov 30th. Allowing those five hunters a really quality hunt and would probably harvest great rams.

If a ram is killed they cannot apply for 5 years, no ram killed 2 year wait.

No 999 applications you must always apply for the specific area that you want. If you do not apply you do not lose your priority but also do not gain.

Some areas may have 10 ram allocations others 2, or more and others may be closed due to whatever.

4/5 curl stay in effect everywhere.

Applications cost $50 non refundable if drawn cost $500

Just a thought.

So if everyone that buys a bighorn tag applys for the draw that's about 2000 applicants a year. Say they hand out 100 tags. That slashes harvest rates by a third roughly. Quick math means I will get to sheep hunt every 25years. NO THANKS.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Where did you get this information from?
Are you just guessing based on previous f&w assertions or have you been able to get f&w to release the concern for the current proposal. ...?
Please do not promote conjecture as fact...

Last time around f&w started their proposal claiming a proven concern of hunting induced genetic selection.... which they backed away from and resorted to the low ram population claim.... which was potentially only valid for two of the ten sheep management areas.

Sure. The 1993 draft on sheep management cites Geist and Heimers research on the detrimental effects of heavy harvest of all mature rams in a population. This research was used to set the goal of having the level of mature males remaining in the population after hunting season at roughly 5 percent. In most southern areas we have been well below that level for many seasons.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ep-Jul1993.pdf

[Lr1000]

Reading the servays done and the charts. I see no reason for change as there has been little change in 30 years of sheep hunting. It has stayed very consistent. The only reason for change is if we as hunters want to increase trophy quality at the expense of opportunity. As far as making it full curl to help the herd, it's been the same for thirty years and sheep numbers are staying consistent so to me they are doing just fine.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

So if everyone that buys a bighorn tag applys for the draw that's about 2000 applicants a year. Say they hand out 100 tags. That slashes harvest rates by a third roughly. Quick math means I will get to sheep hunt every 25years. NO THANKS.

Only if you were really, really lucky. If it went to draw there would be way more than 2000 applicants. Look at the 438 draw, 3817 applicants this year alone, almost double the number of general tags sold each year. If they put it on draw across the board (and leave it at $4 application fee, which you know they would, gotta be fair for everyone ) EVERYBODY would be putting in, even if they had never had the slightest interest in hunting sheep.

[416 Ultramag]

I think the real problem is that a lot of sheep hunters dont have the will power to hold of on a squeaker. You see lots of pics of Rams shot but most of them are barley legal and are 5-7 years old.

Everything else in Alberta is on Draw except whitetail and 3 point elk. If hunters cant stop shooting squeakers then what are we supposed to do?

Hunt every year and never see a legal ram or a rat race to a squeaker.
How many pics are posted on this website that actually shows 170 + sheep or 9 year old rams.

I would rather go on two or three hunts that have the potential of lasting 3 months each and be of real quality and trophy potential than just going for a nice hike in the hills.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Reading the servays done and the charts. I see no reason for change as there has been little change in 30 years of sheep hunting. It has stayed very consistent. The only reason for change is if we as hunters want to increase trophy quality at the expense of opportunity. As far as making it full curl to help the herd, it's been the same for thirty years and sheep numbers are staying consistent so to me they are doing just fine.

It has changed significantly. Trophy ram harvest has decreased especially in the southern zones from 1993 onward. From 1980-93 we average probably 220 Rams a year harvested. From 1993-2011 it has averaged 179 Rams a year. 23 percent drop. So yes there has been change in the last 30 years.

[Lr1000]

Squeeker ram if you like it or not is still a legal ram. With the never ending rumors of ESRD making changes to sheep hunting, hunters are taking what they can get. At least I know if 4 Rams taken for this reason. However that is not for you or me to judge because it is legal.

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by bdub

It has changed significantly. Trophy ram harvest has decreased especially in the southern zones from 1993 onward. From 1980-93 we average probably 220 Rams a year harvested. From 1993-2011 it has averaged 179 Rams a year. 23 percent drop. So yes there has been change in the last 30 years.

This does not mean there has been a drop in mature ram numbers. This could be less hunting pressure in those areas or a number of other factors. Also 400 was made full curl post 93 so that has to have some affect on that number.

[416 Ultramag]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

Squeeker ram if you like it or not is still a legal ram. With the never ending rumors of ESRD making changes to sheep hunting, hunters are taking what they can get. At least I know if 4 Rams taken for this reason. However that is not for you or me to judge because it is legal.

I agree with you it is not for you or me to judge. So now the government is doing it for us, my making it full curl and I guess that will solve the 5-7 year old problem. However in that same sentence many mature and even book rams will die of old age and never hit full curl. I personally would like to see full curl or 9 year old ram if we do not go to a draw.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

This does not mean there has been a drop in mature ram numbers. This could be less hunting pressure in those areas or a number of other factors. Also 400 was made full curl post 93 so that has to have some affect on that number.

Your reasoning and doesn't make any sense LR. I know you are grasping at straws here. Read all the research and come up with an honest conclusion that makes sense for what we are seeing.

[6tmile]

What if wait times inbetween ram harvest were extended from the 2 year to 5 years

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Only if you were really, really lucky. If it went to draw there would be way more than 2000 applicants. Look at the 438 draw, 3817 applicants this year alone, almost double the number of general tags sold each year. If they put it on draw across the board (and leave it at $4 application fee, which you know they would, gotta be fair for everyone ) EVERYBODY would be putting in, even if they had never had the slightest interest in hunting sheep.

Exactly. A draw would kill sheep hunting as we know it. The real issue facing our sheep are
Availability of food
Habitat loss
Predator control
Subsistence hunting
If we focused on those 4 problems we could increase sheep populations, horn size and opportunity all without losing a thing. But ESRD doesn't want to face the problems head on.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by ksteed17

Exactly. A draw would kill sheep hunting as we know it. The real issue facing our sheep are
Availability of food
Habitat loss
Predator control
Subsistence hunting
If we focused on those 4 problems we could increase sheep populations, horn size and opportunity all without losing a thing. But ESRD doesn't want to face the problems head on.

Much the same as draws killed mule deer hunting

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

Sure. The 1993 draft on sheep management cites Geist and Heimers research on the detrimental effects of heavy harvest of all mature rams in a population. This research was used to set the goal of having the level of mature males remaining in the population after hunting season at roughly 5 percent. In most southern areas we have been well below that level for many seasons.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ep-Jul1993.pdf

Thanks for confiming that you do Not know what the current concern is.

I state again that the hunting community must be informed f&w what the concern and reasoning for the current proposal. It is ridiculous that f&w has proposed restrictions without having completed the research.

[ksteed17]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Much the same as draws killed mule deer hunting

What's the longest wait for a Mulie tag 5 maybe 6 years. Most areas can be drawn a lot sooner compared to once in a lifetime for a sheep draw? Ya they're exactly the same...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by 416 Ultramag

I think the real problem is that a lot of sheep hunters dont have the will power to hold of on a squeaker. You see lots of pics of Rams shot but most of them are barley legal and are 5-7 years old.

Everything else in Alberta is on Draw except whitetail and 3 point elk. If hunters cant stop shooting squeakers then what are we supposed to do?

Hunt every year and never see a legal ram or a rat race to a squeaker.
How many pics are posted on this website that actually shows 170 + sheep or 9 year old rams.

I would rather go on two or three hunts that have the potential of lasting 3 months each and be of real quality and trophy potential than just going for a nice hike in the hills.

Why do you continue to assume what the concern is?



Considering the many pictures of 8-11 year old 180+ rams taken this year I have seen (and I am not in the loop as many others are) I have a hard time believing that any hunt doesn't hold the potential for a " real quality trophy" to be killed.

Now of course I must admit that these rams were taken by hunters that have put in a pile of time and educated effort.....

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Has anyone been Informed as to what concern f&w is trying to solve?


Why offer solutions to an unknown unsubstantiated problem?


Reminds me of Horseshack on Welcome back Kotter..... :lol;


How about if before promoting more restrictions on hunting, we put our efforts into demanding that f&w inform us what their concern is..... ?

Perhaps there is no problem people just don't like the way sheep are currently managed Personally I think the current rules are fine except only a certain class of sheep get killed.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Why do you continue to assume what the concern is?



Considering the many pictures of 8-11 year old 180+ rams taken this year I have seen (and I am not in the loop as many others are) I have a hard time believing that any hunt doesn't hold the potential for a " real quality trophy" to be killed.

Now of course I must admit that these rams were taken by hunters that have put in a pile of time and educated effort.....

Agreed this forum only has a frAction of the sheep that are killed and most if the big ones are never posted here