Sheep on a Draw? - Page 2

sheepguide · #31 01-04-2010, 05:24 PM

Tough to say but 8 would be a nice number but there are some great 6 and 7 year old rams in some areas.

bowhuntercam · #32 01-04-2010, 05:55 PM

If sheep hunting is to go on draw, I hope it does based on hunter opportunity, managing for trophy quality or balancing population rather then to reduce the number of short rams being harvested. Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot connect how putting sheep on draw will reduce the number of short rams harvested.
Cam

crazyfish · #33 01-04-2010, 05:55 PM

the original problem was "short rams being shot" ! wow i'd hate to be one of those guys. I've passed on a few that were just too close, not that the age would really have mattered, but if it's too close too call i'm not shooting! At bow range i looked one over for 15 mins and still couldn't decide, so no shot ! whether it's my inexperience with judging them, or being too carefull, i have yet to tag one. but if it isn't an obvious legal ram , pass it up ! I can live with that alot better than walking down the mountain and heading into F+W with a questionable ram !

Too bad more people don't realize the rare oportunity to hunt sheep on a general tag is ! A few minutes on the internet and they'd realize what the costs are for this kind of hunting elsewhere and maybe show a bit of restraint and respect for the future of this oportunity!

I'm not sure that a draw is the answer either. Does anyone know how many legal rams are shot a year ?

sheepguide · #34 01-04-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

If sheep hunting is to go on draw, I hope it does based on hunter opportunity, managing for trophy quality or balancing population rather then to reduce the number of short rams being harvested. Maybe I am missing something, but I cannot connect how putting sheep on draw will reduce the number of short rams harvested.
Cam

the only thing that I can see is because there will hopefully be more mature rams on the hills for guys to look over. And im sure even with the draw illegal rams will be shot.

nube · #35 01-04-2010, 06:29 PM

About 120 a year out of a couple thousand tags aprox.

#36 01-04-2010, 06:42 PM

Nube, where did you get those harvest stats...I've been looking all over for them.

crazyfish · #37 01-04-2010, 06:43 PM

i really do like the fact that if i don't shoot one this year, or last , or the year before! i can still go the next year ! I like the fact if you get one you get a year off ! I really hope that this opportunity is always accessable! My daughters will soon be old enough to join me, and i would hate to have them wait before being able to hold that tag !

mountainmike · #38 01-04-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Nube, where did you get those harvest stats...I've been looking all over for them.

I was reading something the other day on the Alberta FNAWS site and this stat i copied from it.

Alberta's bighorn sheep hunting season, which saw 1,744 hunters go after bighorns from late August until Oct. 31. Hunting licences cost Alberta residents $49 and non-residents $310.

About 130 to 150 sheep are killed during the hunting season each year. Considered the best bighorn hunting ground in the world, Alberta has the largest population of Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep on the continent, about 7,000 animals.

MM

nube · #39 01-04-2010, 07:19 PM

Sheephunter, I am just going by memory as I have seen them lots before and can not remember where. Maybe it was the Alberta outdoorsman or some other outdoor magazine that use to have all of the zones and harvest info along with the stats for the year that I am remembering. Either way I think I am right and would put money on it that I am pretty close to the average numebers. I will see if I can dig it up somewhere. The stats generally stay the same. The number of sheep hunters has gone up from past years from what I remember and the harvest stats really have not changed much and bounce between 120-150 rams a year I believe. Going from memory here so don't quote me on it though

Grizzly Adams · #40 01-04-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by podman

If age were the rule how old would the rams need to be?

I guess you could address that by saying "at least". Not that difficult to get a general age, by looking at the horn structure. My own thought is that a draw might improve the Hunt experience, which some of us crave. No more of this 6 guys glassing the same ram, on opening day.

I thought BC had an age qualification for Bighrn sheep.
Grizz

TangoKilo · #41 01-04-2010, 08:29 PM

I would be in favor of some measure that would improve the sheephunting experiance through more mature rams. Seems each year I can find lots of rams that are close to legal, but VERY few that meet the chriteria.

I'm not sure that a draw is the answer either. As other posters have said, I really like the oppertunity to hunt year after year if I fail to kill one. I would however be willing to sit out 2 or 3 years after killing a sheep. I think that a longer wait after harvesting a ram might be a reasonable solution.

As for hunters killing short rams...
I don't think that this problem has any easy solutions. Possibly some education to perspective sheep hunters as well as increased penalties would have some positive effect. For me, it is simply not worth the risk to squeeze the trigger on a sheep that is anywhere close to boarder line. I suspect that many hunters take this gamble and for some it pays off for them with a sheep that is marginaly legal. In my case I think of the SHAME of killing a short ram far more then I think of the other concequences.

Tk

ram crazy · #42 01-04-2010, 08:43 PM

I heard there was a proposal put in by the Willow Valley club to the AFGA that if a Ram is shot you would have to wait 5yrs. before you could hunt them again. They are to bring this up at the conference in Feb. If they put Sheep on draw you would have a 15-20 yr. wait because everybody would apply just because there is another thing to apply for. I don't think they should do anything with the way it is now. You can still find book Rams, you just have to spend the time to find them.

spurly · #43 01-04-2010, 08:56 PM

The two biggest factors are the numbers of sheep shot that can't be controlled.
The first are the hunters who consistently take sheep for themselves and others,that are marginaly legal rams that are shot only to sell the capes, these capes are bringing $1500 for a shoulder mount, and up to $2500 for a lifesize prime late october cape.

The second issue, and I may get flamed for this is Native hunters, until they change the meaning of subsistance to only include(animals without horns or antlers, or otherwise considered trophy quality such as grizzly or cougar) no amount of protection will help.A draw will do us no good if the sheep are harvested by native hunters while wintering , and at their most vulnerable.

Rather than a draw I would much prefer to see a 1in 3 or a 1 in 5yr rule, so that you had better want that sheep enough to wait the allotted time period.
The practice of buying ,selling and bartering capes of any species needs to stop. Not meaning to rant but sheep hold a special place in this ecosystem, they are very fragile species and need to be treated so.Another issue that is very harmful to sheep is domesticated livestock above treeline.This contributed to our last big die-off in the 90's

ram crazy · #44 01-04-2010, 09:03 PM

The last big die off in the south was the 80's and I think from what I am seeing lately the sheep numbers are on the up swing. I am seeing more Rams every year!!

Stinky Coyote · #45 01-04-2010, 09:06 PM

i kinda like the 2 rams in a lifetime idea i've heard...but maybe make it 3 and i'd be happier

, i think that might bring the age/quality/size up, i know if i was on my last one i'd be holding out as i'm sure a ton of other guys

i agree with Tango, from what i saw this past season i have no doubts there are lots of guys will to gamble on the square on marginal sheep and i think they've learned it goes to their favor so if they are questioning it they shoot when a lot of us go the other way....i'm not sure who's the smarter group?.....i know i don't have 3 to 6 rams on the wall like some of those i'm talking about so maybe they've got me there, i can't do it as if my guts don't feel right then its not worth it but hey, if you've learned to judge legal better then good for you....put 3 more squeakers on the wall...

two more rams to go in their life should slow it down and let them get more obvious for the rest of us dimwits

sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant....but i saw some interesting stuff this year that just blew me away about this game i'm starting to get much more familiar with, i could be happy with something that would change that a bit

sheepguide · #46 01-04-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spurly

The second issue, and I may get flamed for this is Native hunters, until they change the meaning of subsistance to only include(animals without horns or antlers, or otherwise considered trophy quality such as grizzly or cougar) no amount of protection will help.A draw will do us no good if the sheep are harvested by native hunters while wintering , and at their most vulnerable.

Just wondering where the natives are shooting the sheep on their winter ranges?

Rackmastr · #47 01-04-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Just wondering where the natives are shooting the sheep on their winter ranges?

Its happened around Pincher Creek and in the south country on a few occasions, by both Natives and Metis when the IMHA was in place. A few harvests and some rams killed and left after having their heads cut off.

sheepguide · #48 01-04-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Its happened around Pincher Creek and in the south country on a few occasions, by both Natives and Metis when the IMHA was in place. A few harvests and some rams killed and left after having their heads cut off.

Oh ya just was wondering as I havent seen much sign of it in my area. I do know a few natives that have shot sheep but they are all above 175"(not making it right but at least the sheep got to grow up)

Rackmastr · #49 01-04-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Oh ya just was wondering as I havent seen much sign of it in my area. I do know a few natives that have shot sheep but they are all above 175"(not making it right but at least the sheep got to grow up)

Yea I know what you mean. There has been one big 'harvest' in the Burnt Timber but most of the sheep killed were ewes as far as I heard. Second hand information so I cant confirm....

Tonto · #50 01-04-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

by both Natives and Metis when the IMHA was in place. A few harvests and some rams killed and left after having their heads cut off.

Are you sure these headless sheep were killed by Natives and Metis?

Rackmastr · #51 01-04-2010, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonto

Are you sure these headless sheep were killed by Natives and Metis?

No, in fact those rams I couldnt or wouldnt try to confirm. Sure would seem stupid if they left them as they could legally harvest them.

My post should have been more directed to the fact there has been some bad shooting and killing of rams after the seasons are closed. Poaching or harvesting from natives.

Tonto · #52 01-04-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

No, in fact those rams I couldnt or wouldnt try to confirm. Sure would seem stupid if they left them as they could legally harvest them.

My post should have been more directed to the fact there has been some bad shooting and killing of rams after the seasons are closed. Poaching or harvesting from natives.

I just thought you may of been thinking of the ram case that just went to court. According to the court's that ram was taken up north IIRC.

spurly · #53 01-04-2010, 10:07 PM

they are shooting them in 400, south of highway 3, behind the shell plant, there have also been a couple killed west of the pass, by the lakes.A couple years ago 5 sheep were killed, and it was widely published knowledge, although, none were big rams, it was still very detrimental to the heard.The locals from the pass and Pincher creek, no this is going on, but nothing can be done.Last year a ram was shot out of Yarrow, by a native,it was taken into BC, aparently, the only charges that could be layed were exporting without a permit.Ihave lived in the Pass for fifty years, and have had some great sheep hunting, there were a bunch of nice rams taken this year but also a bunch of sqeakers.The general population is doing ok, but they could use all the help they can get. Another issue we are running into is if a person shoots a ram on the south side of highway 3, (which is full curl rule)and they anticipate any problems with it being short, they report it as being shot on the north side (4/5 rule)

Rackmastr · #54 01-04-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spurly

Another issue we are running into is if a person shoots a ram on the south side of highway 3, (which is full curl rule)and they anticipate any problems with it being short, they report it as being shot on the north side (4/5 rule)

Yep another really valid point. Had a quick chat with a F&W Officer from Pincher today and we chatted about the sheep and some of the issues in WMU 400. That is definatly a big concern...

TangoKilo · #55 01-04-2010, 11:19 PM

From some I have talked to, the full curl rule which is in effect in WMU 400 is quite difficult for the hunter to judge. Sounds like there are several guys who have rams taken away each year from that zone because they fail to meet the chriteria. The hunters shoot thinking that they are good, but when It comes time to measure they come up short.

I have no experiance with hunting in 400 or with full curl sheep. Any idea exactly what is going on here?

Rackmastr · #56 01-05-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TangoKilo

From some I have talked to, the full curl rule which is in effect in WMU 400 is quite difficult for the hunter to judge. Sounds like there are several guys who have rams taken away each year from that zone because they fail to meet the chriteria. The hunters shoot thinking that they are good, but when It comes time to measure they come up short.

I have no experiance with hunting in 400 or with full curl sheep. Any idea exactly what is going on here?

Full curl rams are definatly harder to judge for guys that havent done it before. It takes a bit more looking and you need to be able to draw that 'line' pretty well while looking at the profile. I know I've looked at a lot of sheep in 400 and there are some true giants that dont QUITE make full-curl that I've looked at....

TangoKilo · #57 01-05-2010, 08:45 AM

Now this begs the question! Is there a better way to ensure that Mature rams are killed then by the current systems?

nube · #58 01-05-2010, 08:47 AM

Hey Rackmaster, where in Burnt Timber were those sheep shot? I was just up the North Burnt area last week. There were a few old tracks up the valley but it was not an area I would think guys would work that hard to go get a piece of meat. There were a few skidoo tracks up the mountain I hiked but I did not see any sign of anything being shot up there where I was. There were a dozen ewes and the one ram that I got pictures of in my earlier thread. Just curious to know of where and what got shot in the Burnt Timber area?

Rackmastr · #59 01-05-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nube

Hey Rackmaster, where in Burnt Timber were those sheep shot? I was just up the North Burnt area last week. There were a few old tracks up the valley but it was not an area I would think guys would work that hard to go get a piece of meat. There were a few skidoo tracks up the mountain I hiked but I did not see any sign of anything being shot up there where I was. There were a dozen ewes and the one ram that I got pictures of in my earlier thread. Just curious to know of where and what got shot in the Burnt Timber area?

Up on Lookout Mountain (kinda the one mountain that is the closest one and a very easy walk up). This was 2 years ago and as far as I've heard it was a bunch of ewes and possibly a young ram. Again, second hand info but came from a couple good sources...

nube · #60 01-05-2010, 09:01 AM

Ya, that must be the one with the Fire lookout on the map that I have. Same one as I climbed. I would have thought there would be a pile of good ones in there in the winter but they don't seem to really pack into that area like I thought. I saw a pig of a ram in there one summer a month before the season but of course he disapeared before the season started. Not sure where ther sheep winter that come out of the park or the ghost sanctuary but I would love to fine the spot for some good pics. I will have to bomb around down there some more this winter and see if I can find them.