Fish in my dugout

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Chief16

Are you a biologist? I'm not saying this cynically, genuinely wondering about the nature of your study. Scientific proof is a false statement in itself as science is falsifiable. This means science only offers support. I had a friend with a fish farm that had ponds with stickleback populations and no connection to other water sources. He would should birds and they regurgitated fish, hence introducing the fish to his ponds. This is the only information I have about fish being transported so I obviously am not a credible source. Where you said that you sampled every pond/lake ALONG the athabasca river presents a bias in your study as there was not random sampling done and it was a limited region. By doing one biased sample, I think that you cannot make any conclusions about fish being transported or not by birds.

Don't feel like debating but the study was a masters thesis for a grad student at the U of A. It was a valid study.

Cheers

SDF

[Kurt505]

It's a stickleback, not brought by buckets, or by birds, but by aliens.


That's how it has dodged sundance's scientific proof.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by EZM

To me it boils down to the pragmatic approach to developing a sound theory hopefully supported by facts.

It seems less likely to me "ninja bucket brigade kids" would transport a bucket to a farm dugout under the cover of night to transplant minnows 6 miles away. This seems less likely to me as the root cause. It is possible, no doubt, but in many cases not likely.

I remember one such pond, on a very large acreage, again, watershed was well isolated, property fenced, pond in front of house with a couple dogs, that had minnows appear .... I'm certain a bucket brigade would not have been the leading plausible theory in this case.

It also seems that getting live eggs stuck in the feet (or feathers) of ducks, and having the live eggs transplanted, subsequently and successfully hatched to another dugout is going to be a 1 in a million chance, HOWEVER, it is plausible and possible.

Fertilized fish eggs, like those of the stickleback are gummy and gritty and could stick to the feet and or feathers of some waterfowl. They also are able to remain alive outside of the aquatic environment for a short period of time and survive.

If the transplanting, by waterfowl is plausible and possible, albeit extremely rare occurrence, and it seems like the most likely event .... then it's probably the root cause of these minnows showing up in the pond.

The rarity of these "perfect chain of events" re-occuring consistently, and therefore transplanting eggs to every pond, is exactly why we don't find minnows in every pond.

Keep in mind minnow eggs are smaller, typically laid in nests at a shallower part of a lake and make better candidates for transplantation versus a walleye egg as an example.

Transplantation by birds is possible. I'm not sure it's been proven or well documented, but minnows do show up in dugouts all the time ....... who knows. There are some studies that support this theory.

http://link.springer.com/article/10....750-013-1577-7

There is also proof that fertilized can survive for some period outside thier environment ....

http://www.ec.gc.ca/faunescience-wil...n&n=415ACBD8-1

..... ????

Amphipods are documented to transport on birds. They can survive desiccation as well as they can grab on.

There is no documented evidence and study on transport of fish by birds.

Depending upon where the pond is relative to other water...there could be a gravel stringer with water that connects bodies of water. Not studied that I am aware of but I have found bull trout alive in gravel under a dry creek surface. They were living about 1-2 feet below the surface.

These links don't prove your point.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Don't really care. Just thought it was interesting..... You find it.

Your guess not backed up... Let it go I guess if you have nothing better to add.

Always interested is a good new study.

[Crankbait]

to the op.

did you haul some water for some farming use and maybe dump the remainder in your dugout?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Your guess not backed up... Let it go I guess if you have nothing better to add.

Always interested is a good new study.

If you reread the thread you will notice I'm the only one agreeing with you. Chow.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by mitchell

Dugout was filled from rain and snow. .No possible way the fish came from high runnoff from a body of water with fish in it, and i havent put any type of fish in there.

Did someone get some shrimp to stock the lake with? A lot of people do that and incidentally capture minnows.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If you reread the thread you will notice I'm the only one agreeing with you. Chow.

Lol

It wasn't clear reading your posts. However... A good study would be a great read.

I email an expert. If I get a response I can post I will do it.

[yoteblaster]

I have a dugout that I made about 6 years ago. We noticed this summer it is full of small fish. This dugout is fed only by snowmelt when the water runs off in the Spring. There is a hill about 3/4 of a mile away. All the water that enters this dugout comes from there, no further Most springs the water only runs for a week at the most, sometimes only 3 days. Where do theses fish come from? I believe eggs are transported in birds waste and deposited in water bodies. No bucket brigade here

[mitchell]

Nobody stocked it, it was just dug for cattle water, and a dont use the water for anything else. Its just a hole in the ground lol if you guys can figure out how they got there awesome lol.i was just asking what the hell they were. I believe in the theory birds though... Thats all i can think how it could happen. I want to dig one in the other pasture next year too. We will see what happens

[Wood1]

Nature does tend to fill voids and populate habitats, water especially. I have man made ponds, and every one has created it's own ecosystem and food chain. All have various species of aquatic vegetation, snails, Gammarus scuds and leeches. I have not "seeded" any of these ponds. The fact is, in my case I have never found a fish that I didn't purposely put there. It does obviously happen, but it's not widespread common and the bird theory is just that, a theory.

[AppleJax]

When I was a Kid I remember stickleback swimming up runoff in the ditches. The creek they were swimming up from was a couple miles away.... I wouldn't doubt the bird theory either. I would also like the people arguing that theory to disprove it.

[Crankbait]

Originally Posted by Wood1

Nature does tend to fill voids and populate habitats, water especially. I have man made ponds, and every one has created it's own ecosystem and food chain. All have various species of aquatic vegetation, snails, Gammarus scuds and leeches. I have not "seeded" any of these ponds. The fact is, in my case I have never found a fish that I didn't purposely put there. It does obviously happen, but it's not widespread common and the bird theory is just that, a theory.

that's a really nice healthy walleye in your avatar picture.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by mitchell

Nobody stocked it, it was just dug for cattle water, and a dont use the water for anything else. Its just a hole in the ground lol if you guys can figure out how they got there awesome lol.i was just asking what the hell they were. I believe in the theory birds though... Thats all i can think how it could happen. I want to dig one in the other pasture next year too. We will see what happens

Did you dig down into gravel? I think it would be very interesting to see what happens.

[Northwinds]

I have 4 man made lakes,the result of a ongoing gravel mining operation.
All are close to the Battle River,of the 4 ,2 of these are land locked.Water filters through the gravel and has to be pumped out 24/7 in order to mine the gravel out.Once completed,the pumps are shut off and the reclamation and lake construction begins.The first thing that's made is the buram around the lake.We strive to get this higher then the 100 year flood mark by at least 10 feet.There is no possibility that minnows or other aquatic life gets into these lakes during construction.All have minnows and Stickle backs in them now.
The lakes have been turned into a commercial trout farm,now one of the daily duties is to keep birds away from the fish.The greatest culprit is a Commerant.Several times I have witnessed these birds throwing up everything in there stomachs when frightened and then flying off.I believe they do this to make the load lighter.When you rush over in the boat to see what they have hurled up,not only trout are there but minnows.These minnows/sticklebacks are often alive.I believe the birds feed in the river and then decide to feed in one of my lakes.I just happen to show up(on a frequent basis) and scare them.I promise you that birds do transport live fish,especially when the bodies of water are just seconds apart. Birds may not be the answer to every bodies mysterious stocking of minnows,but in my case,I can assure you they are.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Don't feel like debating but the study was a masters thesis for a grad student at the U of A. It was a valid study.

Cheers

SDF

Was there a paper or anything published that I could look at then? I go to the U of A so it would be easy to get my hands on it I would imagine. I am not saying it isn't possible for them to get into other water bodies through run off, high water etc. I'm just saying that it is very close minded not to think of other options.

[Rumtan]

I am just curious but approximately how many do you think are there in there? If its a bunch then i dont think it was birds.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I think aliens spread them to mess with our minds.

[Northwinds]

Originally Posted by Rumtan

I am just curious but approximately how many do you think are there in there? If its a bunch then i dont think it was birds.

The initial implant is from the cormorants, once the minnows/sticklebacks get into a body of water they start to multiply.You see just a handful along the shores at first but after a year or two there everywhere.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Chief16

Was there a paper or anything published that I could look at then? I go to the U of A so it would be easy to get my hands on it I would imagine. I am not saying it isn't possible for them to get into other water bodies through run off, high water etc. I'm just saying that it is very close minded not to think of other options.

Just had someone track it down for me. Brings back memories.

https://mail-attachment.googleuserco...NTIYNI8X5Fu4MQ

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Northwinds

The initial implant is from the cormorants, once the minnows/sticklebacks get into a body of water they start to multiply.You see just a handful along the shores at first but after a year or two there everywhere.

I did some stomach sampling of cormorants for Fish and Wildlife in about 1990. I don't believe fish could survive being out of water that long and laying in digestive juices then have the bird fly away and land on a lake and barf live minnows.

Likely what you saw was a cormorant barfing and existing minnows swimming over to eat.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Northwinds

I have 4 man made lakes,the result of a ongoing gravel mining operation.
All are close to the Battle River,of the 4 ,2 of these are land locked.Water filters through the gravel and has to be pumped out 24/7 in order to mine the gravel out.Once completed,the pumps are shut off and the reclamation and lake construction begins.The first thing that's made is the buram around the lake.We strive to get this higher then the 100 year flood mark by at least 10 feet.There is no possibility that minnows or other aquatic life gets into these lakes during construction.All have minnows and Stickle backs in them now.
The lakes have been turned into a commercial trout farm,now one of the daily duties is to keep birds away from the fish.The greatest culprit is a Commerant.Several times I have witnessed these birds throwing up everything in there stomachs when frightened and then flying off.I believe they do this to make the load lighter.When you rush over in the boat to see what they have hurled up,not only trout are there but minnows.These minnows/sticklebacks are often alive.I believe the birds feed in the river and then decide to feed in one of my lakes.I just happen to show up(on a frequent basis) and scare them.I promise you that birds do transport live fish,especially when the bodies of water are just seconds apart. Birds may not be the answer to every bodies mysterious stocking of minnows,but in my case,I can assure you they are.

Likely the adults or try made their way via the permeable gravel layer. With that much flow as described very likely a connection was there.

Like a cave system.

[Northwinds]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I did some stomach sampling of cormorants for Fish and Wildlife in about 1990. I don't believe fish could survive being out of water that long and laying in digestive juices then have the bird fly away and land on a lake and barf live minnows.

Likely what you saw was a cormorant barfing and existing minnows swimming over to eat.

Sundance,
The river is feet away,a couple seconds at best.Trust me when I say live minnows can come out of a Cormorant.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Northwinds

Sundance,
The river is feet away,a couple seconds at best.Trust me when I say live minnows can come out of a Cormorant.

Equally trust me that if the river is feet away and connected with gravel that that is a very likely pathway for fish to travel.

Also trust me when I say a cormorant eats a fish...the strong stomach acid is bad for their existence. I would agree that if a cormorant eats a live minnow and instantly barfs it up there is a chance it could live.

Agreeing to disagree on my points is fine. All just an interesting discussion. I miss this part of my scientific fisheries training and experience. When I am independently wealthy I would love to study another new pond in that area. Or just come fish the dugout for fun!

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Amphipods are documented to transport on birds. They can survive desiccation as well as they can grab on.

There is no documented evidence and study on transport of fish by birds.

Depending upon where the pond is relative to other water...there could be a gravel stringer with water that connects bodies of water. Not studied that I am aware of but I have found bull trout alive in gravel under a dry creek surface. They were living about 1-2 feet below the surface.

These links don't prove your point.

Sundance,

I am not trying to prove anything - I am offering a plausible theory that is the most likely to be accurate based on what little we know.

"Gravel Stingers" are unlikely here as this is a dugout some 6 mile away from the nearest water source as per the OP.

Keep in mind "just because the students did not find evidence to support this theory does not mean it has been disproved"

If you have a degree in any science, you should be well aware of that.

Why don't you PROVE that a aqueduct under ground, which happen to come up exactly where the dugout was constructed, and brought sticklebacks over 6 miles ...... that would definitely be revolutionary. Just repeating it sound ridiculous.

Don't assume the people you are talking to on the forum are not qualified and educated to provide their thoughts or opinions. You might just be surprised on here.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by EZM

Sundance,

I am not trying to prove anything - I am offering a plausible theory that is the most likely to be accurate based on what little we know.

"Gravel Stingers" are unlikely here as this is a dugout some 6 mile away from the nearest water source as per the OP.

Keep in mind "just because the students did not find evidence to support this theory does not mean it has been disproved"

If you have a degree in any science, you should be well aware of that.

Why don't you PROVE that a aqueduct under ground, which happen to come up exactly where the dugout was constructed, and brought sticklebacks over 6 miles ...... that would definitely be revolutionary. Just repeating it sound ridiculous.

Don't assume the people you are talking to on the forum are not qualified and educated to provide their thoughts or opinions. You might just be surprised on here.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who understands how the scientific process works. Either he actually isn't educated and just believes he is or this is a huge troll.

[Northwinds]

Originally Posted by chief16

thank you! Finally someone who understands how the scientific process works. Either he actually isn't educated and just believes he is or this is a huge troll.

slow clap

[Lornce]

Perhaps flooding will carry eggs or adults from drainage ditches or minimum wet areas. Its amazing where they can survive and thrive.

[Geezle]

Originally Posted by Geezle

Now I'm waiting for somebody to chip in that birds don't transport fish

.

[wags]

So, I don't have anything credible to offer here, but it might be something to build off.

I have a fishtank. It has fish. I feed the fish. I feed specific fish Algae wafers. Once in a while, I get a snail outbreak. I mean, literally hundreds of them. I've always been confused. I've never bought snails before. Where did they come from? Why is there so many?

So, what was described to me at the pet store is that the eggs can live in the algae wafers for some time, and when dropped in the tank and broken up/eaten and pooped out, the eggs can hatch.

Now I know we're discussing Stickleback vs snails, but I'm wondering if it's possible for a bird to eat a Stickleback 'nest' (as it was referred above) and can later poop the eggs with enough viability to hatch?

I agree with the general consensus that I would be amazed to find that birds cannot transport fish. As mentioned, the stomach juices will kill the fish in a short time, but, (showing my ignorance again, I'm sure), does the bird just eat it, or possibly carrying it somewhere? (An eagle dropped a fish in our boat once, and I understand different animals - different eating habits). Is this not plausible?

Cheers