Alberta grazing leases keep $45M per year out of public hands, review finds

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Why is it unreasonable for a rancher to be paid for his time? Most of you fine city socialists are paid by the hour, that's OK, but if you are a landowner it's not? It's our business and we will charge for what we want. It's just like the guy in town printing "no hunting" signs, he charges what the market will bare.

I can see prices increasing steadily

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by avb3

I think it is criminal and disgusting that trespassers caused you those problems. Was anyone convicted?

They should be.

He's probably talking about repairs to permanently locked gates on leased land and across road allowances.

And calculated at his O&G negoatsheating discussion meeting raate of $500/hr.

$15,000 buys a long stretch of barb wire to encircle quite a vast expanse of the truth.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

He's probably talking about repairs to permanently locked gates on leased land and across road allowances.

And calculated at his O&G negoatsheating discussion meeting raate of $500/hr.

$15,000 buys a long stretch of barb wire to encircle quite a vast expanse of the truth.

Lot of "guessing" in this post..

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by hal53

Lot of "guessing" in this post..

Perhaps..........perhaps not.

http://www.ufa.com/products/product....-wire-1-4-mile

$ 15,000 / ($75/ quarter mile spool) = 200
200spools x 1/4mile = 50miles
50miles / 3 strand fence = 16.67 miles
16 miles encircles 4 sq miles
4 sq miles is 16 sections of land
16 sections is 10,000 acres

$15,000 is enough barb wire to encircle 10,000 acres with a new wire 3 strand fence

If he's talking about repairs, I assume the posts are still there from the wantant destruction he claims has occurred.

The above was just for fun, as I know it's not that simple.
But if he can stretch the truth, I can take some liberties in my response.

[muskrat]

Yes there seems to be millions involved and the more digging that is done the number keeps going up... I believe the rents need to be fair, the rental terms reflect the owners rights and O&G monies outed. I have had exposure to both O&G and aggies/ranchers on leases and my experience said the O&G did a better job of looking after the land during and after use. Sometimes I get the impression that this is still the wild west. And oh yes I will continue lobbying the government to fix this mess and bring it up to 21st century logic and reasoning. Just saying....

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

The moment that the Govt allowed the sale of grazing leases, the whole issue started heading down the toilet.

The sale of leases created an asset in the holder of leases. Probably because there was significant value beyond the amount that was paid to the govt for the lease rights......probably the rate was much better than what would have been paid in an open market for grazing from a private owned pasture.

Now there is the claim to the dugouts and fences that are put up to facilitate the grazing. But the fences are a perishable commodity that depletes over time without maintenance. This is where the govt really messed up. They should have contracted to have the dugouts and fences put up at the Govt expense......just like any landlord would invest in reno's that improve the market rental rate of his property.

Then the govt could have put these GRAZING RIGHTS ONLY leases in (reasonable size blocks) up for open bids each year or 5 years and the highest bidder gets to use the grazing to make a profit. The free market will determine the correct value of this based on the ability of the business owner to make a profit and on competition for this profit. If they can't make a profit on this grazing, then the price will end up going to the level where the profit is possible.

Now just like any landlord, the lease should have a requirement for maintaining the property. If you rent a house, there is a level of maintenance that is expected. Maintaining the fences and return the property to the Govt in the condition you took it, is not that hard of a concept. The leaseholder just has to factor this into his cost of using this lease. BUT....there is no ownership of improvements concept started.

Everybody wins.........well except maybe the rancher may not like the exposure to the free market and the increased costs.

Now as to the revenue from Oil and Gas........
If you rent a house or apartment or most other commercial property, there is a long list of clauses as to what is acceptable use.....anything beyond this is not allowed or must be approved by the owner.

The clause that is in most agreements is about subletting. It is not allowed in most cases. No one want to rent to an unknown......and lose control of who in on their property. So its, simple, there should be no subletting without going through the Govt. Annnnnnddd, like any landlord, the premium for this subletting if approved goes to the owner of the land.

SO....the really problem came about because in the mind of the grazing leaseholders, THEY have an asset that THEY BELEIVE they are entitled to control and profit from........outside of grazing cattle.

It is also what is causing the hunting access issue.

Beautifully stated!

[mich]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

He's probably talking about repairs to permanently locked gates on leased land and across road allowances.

And calculated at his O&G negoatsheating discussion meeting raate of $500/hr.

$15,000 buys a long stretch of barb wire to encircle quite a vast expanse of the truth.

Sorry, private land. I know in your world labour and equipment is free but not in mine

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

Perhaps..........perhaps not.

http://www.ufa.com/products/product....-wire-1-4-mile

$ 15,000 / ($75/ quarter mile spool) = 200
200spools x 1/4mile = 50miles
50miles / 3 strand fence = 16.67 miles
16 miles encircles 4 sq miles
4 sq miles is 16 sections of land
16 sections is 10,000 acres

$15,000 is enough barb wire to encircle 10,000 acres with a new wire 3 strand fence

If he's talking about repairs, I assume the posts are still there from the wantant destruction he claims has occurred.

The above was just for fun, as I know it's not that simple.
But if he can stretch the truth, I can take some liberties in my response.

You should have stated "the above proves I'm clueless"

How big is a section of land?????? I guess that your ndp math applies to all your other figures as well....

[Clarksen]

Originally Posted by mich

30 years ago we spent 2-3000 dollars to repair damage from hunters/trespassers

20 years ago we spent 6-7000 to repair damage from hunters/trespassers

10 years ago we spent 10-12000 to repair damage from hunters/trespassers

this year we are over 15000 and not finished yet

What is interesting is the peasants that scream the loudest are usually the worst offenders and think they are entitled to go where they please whether the land is deeded or leased and have no respect for anyone or anything. I think hunting licences should be bumped up to say... 2500 for the city idiots to cover the costs of their hobby....

Could you fill us in on what happened and why in 10 year increments. Where do you live? Why no publicity? I've lived on a farm surrounded by lease land all my life and have never heard of something like this. Unless you can give some facts and figures I think I'll just call it BS.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Clarksen

Could you fill us in on what happened and why in 10 year increments. Where do you live? Why no publicity? I've lived on a farm surrounded by lease land all my life and have never heard of something like this. Unless you can give some facts and figures I think I'll just call it BS.

He parks his Lambo on the lease and somebody shot off a mirror.

[Looper]

Originally Posted by mich

Sorry, private land. I know in your world labour and equipment is free but not in mine



You should have stated "the above proves I'm clueless"

How big is a section of land?????? I guess that your ndp math applies to all your other figures as well....

Is a section not 1 square mile? Math looks bang on to me.

Looper

[Purple Farmer]

Just stop guys, this has nowhere positive to go for anyone.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Looper

Is a section not 1 square mile? Math looks bang on to me.

Looper

His math was wrong. One section=640 acres=1 sq mile=4 miles of fencing.

4 sections=640*4=2560 acres. 4 sections=8 miles of fencing (2 miles by 2 miles)

He may have confused quarters with sections. 4 sections=16 quarters

[Sledhead71]

Ridiculous that these threads bashing the hand that feeds our outdoor community continue to assist in eroding our heritage on an OUTDOOR forum.

Religion, politics, FN, ext have had the hammer dropped and members warned or banned, but we persist in degrading those who allow us access for the passion we support seemingly with-out any consequences.

What the heck is wrong with those who constantly want to attack the very root of our future ?

Does there need to be a review of the leases presently occupied in Alberta ? I would say yes, but let those interest groups and legislators work these compensations out and leave the personal attacks and bickering out of this.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Ridiculous that these threads bashing the hand that feeds our outdoor community continue to assist in eroding our heritage on an OUTDOOR forum.

Religion, politics, FN, ext have had the hammer dropped and members warned or banned, but we persist in degrading those who allow us access for the passion we support seemingly with-out any consequences.

What the heck is wrong with those who constantly want to attack the very root of our future ?

Does there need to be a review of the leases presently occupied in Alberta ? I would say yes, but let those interest groups and legislators work these compensations out and leave the personal attacks and bickering out of this.

This is an important issue that affects a select few leaseholders and a lot of tax paying Albertans. These are not personal attacks however those that have benefitted from crown leases claim it is as part of their distraction defense

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Ridiculous that these threads bashing the hand that feeds our outdoor community continue to assist in eroding our heritage on an OUTDOOR forum.

Religion, politics, FN, ext have had the hammer dropped and members warned or banned, but we persist in degrading those who allow us access for the passion we support seemingly with-out any consequences.

What the heck is wrong with those who constantly want to attack the very root of our future ?

Does there need to be a review of the leases presently occupied in Alberta ? I would say yes, but let those interest groups and legislators work these compensations out and leave the personal attacks and bickering out of this.

Being opposed to a policy and wanting to see it changed is not personally attacking anyone.

As you can see by this thread, those that are benefiting from the existing situation are the ones that are screaming the loudest. There have been veiled threats to individuals and to groups.

Not exactly a cerebral way of discussing the issue.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

This is an important issue that affects a select few leaseholders and a lot of tax paying Albertans. These are not personal attacks however those that have benefitted from crown leases claim it is as part of their distraction defense

Of course this is an important issue, but these discussion do more harm than good for our community. So why allow any topic that erodes our heritage to be debated on a forum specifically for the outdoor personalities is beyond me.

Carry on people.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

erodes our heritage.

some parts of our "heritage" need more than just erosion

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by avb3

Being opposed to a policy and wanting to see it changed is not personally attacking anyone.

As you can see by this thread, those that are benefiting from the existing situation are the ones that are screaming the loudest. There have been veiled threats to individuals and to groups.

Not exactly a cerebral way of discussing the issue.

I tend to agree with AVI on this one...seems some want to make this a "city versus country" argument when it is nothing of the sort.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

I tend to agree with AVI on this one...seems some want to make this a "city versus country" argument when it is nothing of the sort.

Then attack the policy, not a few individuals that are receiving some benefits from the policy as it is now written. As usual on here, a discussion like this gets de railed by a few who get wound up that somebody other than them is getting a perceived special treatment. Pretty sad......

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by avb3

His math was wrong. One section=640 acres=1 sq mile=4 miles of fencing.

4 sections=640*4=2560 acres. 4 sections=8 miles of fencing (2 miles by 2 miles)

He may have confused quarters with sections. 4 sections=16 quarters

That is not the mistake he made. His math is right and the verbiage is wrong. He said 4 sq miles when what he meant was that 16 miles of fence would surround 4 miles square - or 16 sections of land.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

That is not the mistake he made. His math is right and the verbiage is wrong. He said 4 sq miles when what he meant was that 16 miles of fence would surround 4 miles square - or 16 sections of land.

Well dang. two of us got it.LOL

4 sq miles is not the same as 4 miles square.

Hal nailed it, it is always some one else who is a greedy SOB, whether it's a rancher, outfitter, rigpig, union guy, non union guy. as long as he is getting something some one else isn't there's someone whining.

Someone hates guns, wants no one to own one. Hates ATVs, no one should own one. Restrict access to this and that because 'they' don't have it.

What a bunch of crybabies.

If the lease system need review then let the people that have some expertise deal with it. I'll bet most of the people expressing an opinion about what needs to be done, have never stepped in Cow ****. They sure have little or no working knowledge of how the lease system works.

[sjd]

The link to the original study described in the article here, if folks want to get educated on how the system works

http://www.albertalandinstitute.ca/p...ocuments/14873

Note Saskatchewan has a system whereby ranchers are fairly compensated but the majority of revenue goes to the public.

Dubious payments to some ranchers - note the study says 30% of leases collect 93% of the revenue have got nothing to do with Alberta's outdoors heritage, but nice try.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by sjd

The link to the original study described in the article here, if folks want to get educated on how the system works

http://www.albertalandinstitute.ca/p...ocuments/14873

Note Saskatchewan has a system whereby ranchers are fairly compensated but the majority of revenue goes to the public.

Dubious payments to some ranchers - note the study says 30% of leases collect 93% of the revenue have got nothing to do with Alberta's outdoors heritage, but nice try.

Aw, you threw facts into the situation. Some would rather deal with emotion.

[Kanonfodder]

AVB3 their study is a paper its hardly fact. The fact is its based on hypothetical asswertions such as $1500 per wellsite, what may have been from the 1998 Thurber Study and what might have been had 1999's Bill 31 been proclaimed

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

AVB3 their study is a paper its hardly fact. The fact is its based on hypothetical asswertions such as $1500 per wellsite, what may have been from the 1998 Thurber Study and what might have been had 1999's Bill 31 been proclaimed

My expirence is that $1500 is low, but that may vary depending on what part of the province it is.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Well dang. two of us got it.LOL

4 sq miles is not the same as 4 miles square.

Hal nailed it, it is always some one else who is a greedy SOB, whether it's a rancher, outfitter, rigpig, union guy, non union guy. as long as he is getting something some one else isn't there's someone whining.

Someone hates guns, wants no one to own one. Hates ATVs, no one should own one. Restrict access to this and that because 'they' don't have it.

What a bunch of crybabies.

If the lease system need review then let the people that have some expertise deal with it. I'll bet most of the people expressing an opinion about what needs to be done, have never stepped in Cow ****. They sure have little or no working knowledge of how the lease system works.

What a waste of time and typing. Do you not have anything better to do? Of course not.

[muskrat]

Perhaps somewhere in the grazing lease holders there is a "plunderbund - a league of commercial , political or financial interests that exploit the public"
The Golden Rule - equal rights to all and special privileges to none.
Also good on the NDP government of the day to have the interest to take on the powerful familys/people which have run the show for far too long. Hope they dont drag out the process like Bill 6.
Gotta go, tee time shortly.

[Clarksen]

Red Frog - How about me, can I comment legitimately? I have lived on a farm all my life, my brother has lease land, I am surrounded by lease land, I know several lease holders personally, I know how the system works, I knew the public lands man until he quit in disgust, and i see the abuse both to the environment and public on an almost daily basis.

Albertans are getting royally screwed!

[mich]

Originally Posted by avb3

His math was wrong. One section=640 acres=1 sq mile=4 miles of fencing.

4 sections=640*4=2560 acres. 4 sections=8 miles of fencing (2 miles by 2 miles)

He may have confused quarters with sections. 4 sections=16 quarters

Yep

Originally Posted by Looper

Is a section not 1 square mile? Math looks bang on to me.

Looper

NDP supporter?

Originally Posted by Sneeze

He parks his Lambo on the lease and somebody shot off a mirror.

Close

Originally Posted by Clarksen

Could you fill us in on what happened and why in 10 year increments. Where do you live? Why no publicity? I've lived on a farm surrounded by lease land all my life and have never heard of something like this. Unless you can give some facts and figures I think I'll just call it BS.

I can go back many more years or year by year if you would like. Next year come sit up on the ridge and watch the parade, Gates, Fences, Land, Equipment...They all fix themselves. I'll call BS on you never hearing about this stuff

[Kanonfodder]

Originally Posted by avb3

My expirence is that $1500 is low, but that may vary depending on what part of the province it is.

It's way high actually