Water bombers

[antlercarver]

Why does Canada not have a fleet of water bombers. For the cost of a few fighter jets which are very costly and in my mind are really useless, we could have something more useful. Not much for them to do in winter except get paid for fighting fire in California or Australia . Other than be in for repairs the jets dont do anything either.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Probably because they are expensive to buy and maintain for something that spends most of it's time sitting on the ground. That's how we rationalize not spending money on Defense as well.

Grizz

[Sooner]

Since the beast took out Fort Mac, I have thought the same. The Feds should have a fleet at the ready and the provinces can all pay a portion to buy & maintain the fleet. With the way we have/deal with fires now, we should consider having a few always at the ready to go to where they are needed. Hit the fires hard when they are still small if possible. When not in use here, rent them out so to speak.

[Ackleyman]

Screw the Fed's. The whole province could burn up by the time Bombers were sent our way [much to the pleasure of the Libtards] Alberta can have our own Bombers to get a fast response on fires and create revenue helping other provinces or states when required.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Excellent topic, we had dozens of large water bombing planes owned by private companies. However Alberta Guberment thought they were to expensive, cheaper to just let forest burn. Well now we are seeing the results.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by antlercarver

Why does Canada not have a fleet of water bombers. For the cost of a few fighter jets which are very costly and in my mind are really useless, we could have something more useful. Not much for them to do in winter except get paid for fighting fire in California or Australia . Other than be in for repairs the jets dont do anything either.

Fires are a naturally occurring event, discounting the fires started by humans and are a necessary part of forest health. When we place infrastructure and homes in the line of fire we have a tendency to start pointing fingers instead of wondering why we place these facilities in vulnerable locations.

Canada, as a nation, is not nor should it be responsible for maintaining a fleet of water bombers. Forests belong to a tier below the level of the federal government. Privatizing such a thing is the way to go in my books. If entrepeneurs can make a go of it, good for them. If they can't make a go of it, well.....

Your suggestion that that air force and it's fleet of fighters is useless and they don't do anything is such a shallow opinion that I can't even bring myself to invalidate that for you. Canada, as a nation, needs a strong defense, that is the top priority for any federal government. People want the federal government down in the weeds doing the most trivial things for them, things that they should be doing for themselves.

No, Canada does not need a fleet of water bombers. If you're thinking that the airforce should swap their fighters for water bombers that's another ill advised train of thought. National defense is not the peace corp, not the guys you call when you need your driveway shoveled out, not the guys you call when your dog is lost. Just think if it were to happen...and you needed an airforce with defensive/offensive capability...but all of the crews were fighting fires, have no weapons systems, nothing to defend the nation.....this is just such a ludicrous train of thought. Even national Search & Rescue, in my opinion, drains vital airforce resources away from defending the nation. SAR resources (aircraft/aircrew/ground crew) cannot even be counted in being a deployable force and therefore do not enhance national defense other than being a PR flag. I am a retired air force officer not a politician.

[Sundancefisher]

Putting out fires for years is what causes massive forest fires.

Forests are naturally meant to burn and rejuvenate the habitat that comes back after the fire.

When you keep putting them out they build up more and more fuel.

While the knee jerk reaction is to scream more money and put out all fires like during a bad fire year… we need a more comprehensive plan that is transparent that includes letting fires burn naturally, build fire breaks and some putting fires out.

Also more education for people starting fires when out in the country.

[CaberTosser]

De Havilland is setting up to restart production of the CL 415/515 water bombers which haven't been made since around 2015. They're to be made in Calgary temporarily while a brand-new aircraft plant is being constructed between Chestermere & Strathmore. The plant will manufacture the CL 415/515 water bombers as well as the Q400/Dash 8 aircraft. This was all announced in a big ceremony when Kenney was still premier last year. I'm not sure if they'll move the Twin Otter line there from its existing facility or not. I regularly get through their various facilities for building maintenance & repairs & it's great to see the skilled jobs they're bringing, the plant itself is supposed to need 1500 workers once construction is complete. I don't think ground has broken yet on the project. It's a very cool development for the Calgary labor market & job diversification.

One thing their marketing material notes is how they're increasing the utility of the aircraft to add capabilities that make them more attractive to buyers. As was already noted, water bombers out of fire season aren't of much use unless they're being sent to distant nations during their fire seasons. The new capabilities are equipping them for search & rescue as well as fisheries monitoring. The S&R mods include a larger rear door for launching rescue rafts & new wing pods can have sensors mounted (FLIR, etc). These types of tasks can keep the aircraft flying out of fire season, performing necessary work & better justify their expense in gov't budgets.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Fires are a naturally occurring event, discounting the fires started by humans and are a necessary part of forest health. When we place infrastructure and homes in the line of fire we have a tendency to start pointing fingers instead of wondering why we place these facilities in vulnerable locations.

Fires and Floods, the same problems, we keep ignoring Nature , population growth and "development" keep pushing us in that direction. Then we're shocked when things go south.

Grizz

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

De Havilland is setting up to restart production of the CL 415/515 water bombers which haven't been made since around 2015. They're to be made in Calgary temporarily while a brand-new aircraft plant is being constructed between Chestermere & Strathmore. The plant will manufacture the CL 415/515 water bombers as well as the Q400/Dash 8 aircraft. This was all announced in a big ceremony when Kenney was still premier last year. I'm not sure if they'll move the Twin Otter line there from its existing facility or not. I regularly get through their various facilities for building maintenance & repairs & it's great to see the skilled jobs they're bringing, the plant itself is supposed to need 1500 workers once construction is complete. I don't think ground has broken yet on the project. It's a very cool development for the Calgary labor market & job diversification.

One thing their marketing material notes is how they're increasing the utility of the aircraft to add capabilities that make them more attractive to buyers. As was already noted, water bombers out of fire season aren't of much use unless they're being sent to distant nations during their fire seasons. The new capabilities are equipping them for search & rescue as well as fisheries monitoring. The S&R mods include a larger rear door for launching rescue rafts & new wing pods can have sensors mounted (FLIR, etc). These types of tasks can keep the aircraft flying out of fire season, performing necessary work & better justify their expense in gov't budgets.

So, what you're saying is, the solution is a multi purpose aircraft, capable of other applications. Some of the present water bombers started out as obsolete or over capacity passenger planes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q00XpqBk68g


Grizz

[TimeOff]

Alberta already owns 4 CL215T Bombers as well as yearly contracts with both Airspray out of Red Deer and Conair out of Abbotsford. Have for years. https://www.alberta.ca/assets/docume...oup-set-up.pdf

[JB_AOL]

The current forest firefighting plan is to protect residents, otherwise let it burn out, which is the correct way to approach these fires.. it's only been the past 5-8 years that fires are getting bad, and that's because environmentalists were so upset about prescribed burns that our govt cut/reduced the amt they do, we are now seeing the results of that decision.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

Fires are a naturally occurring event, discounting the fires started by humans and are a necessary part of forest health. When we place infrastructure and homes in the line of fire we have a tendency to start pointing fingers instead of wondering why we place these facilities in vulnerable locations.

Fires and Floods, the same problems, we keep ignoring Nature , population growth and "development" keep pushing us in that direction. Then we're shocked when things go south.

Grizz

It isn't being ignored....
it is being marketed as CO2 induced climate change, instead of reality.

[CaberTosser]

Grizz, that 747 is a really good example of how not to build a water bomber. The thing can't operate out of small airports & its cycle time to get to its nearest operating base, land & take on water is ridiculous. The cost of one of those could have a fleet of 415's that can mount a far more sustained attack with much shorter cycle times, which gets more water on target. They could each have multiple cycles per single cycle of that beast, esp considering they probably have shorter flights to a suitable body of water for refilling than the 747 does to its base, plus such a base needs to set up and fill large storage tanks if it doesn't have a hydrant to fill from. More drops = more chance of accuracy. One big drop that misses the mark still needs that extended cycle time again. Every single cost on the 415's would be less, from fuel to maintenance parts. No benefit of redundancy with big bird either.

[1899b]

My Father had airplanes growing up. Connair teams were often on standby not far from my Dad's hangar.

My Dads cousin was a bird dog pilot for Conair back in the day. Not sure why there is a thought out there that we dont have access to water bombers??


When the fires first started last month i do know alot of the areas had iced up water bodies so they were running retardant mostly...

[Sleddawg]

Build a house or town in a forest expect it to burn. Similar to the people that build river front…in a town and then call it HIGH RIVER and then act shocked when your house floods because the river got what….not low…but ???

[IronNoggin]

Coulson Aviation - Next Gen Firefighting

The moment all our Canadian fans have been waiting for.... Coulson has deployed a Large Airtanker Group to Grand Prairie, AB!

One of Coulson's Citation Bird Dogs and C-130H Large Airtankers are currently under contract to Alberta Wildfire and delivered Coulson's first load of retardant to a fire in Canada today.

While Coulson has 34 years experience fighting fires in Canada with both rotary and very large fixed wing aircraft (the Mars), today was the first time the company dropped a load of retardant with one of its Next Generation Large Airtankers, lead by one of its Citation Next Generation Bird Dog aircraft.

We are grateful the Province of Alberta gave us an opportunity to assist in this time of need and look forward to doing more good work in the days to come.

https://www.facebook.com/coulsonaviation/

[LSLAKER]

The 4 CL 215T Water Bombers with Alberta written on them are not owned by the government of Alberta. A registry search with Transport Canada will show that the 4 Canadair CL 215T Water Bombers are registered to Airspray out of Red Deer. G-FSK G-FSL G-FSM and G-FSN

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by LSLAKER

The 4 CL 215T Water Bombers with Alberta written on them are not owned by the government of Alberta. A registry search with Transport Canada will show that the 4 Canadair CL 215T Water Bombers are registered to Airspray out of Red Deer.

There's merit there, they're not a burden on the public purse and flexibility in their use, as long as they're available when we need them.

Grizz

[Smokinyotes]

Just think how many water bombers could be bought with all the money Trudeau has wasted and given away over the years.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Just think how many water bombers could be bought with all the money Trudeau has wasted and given away over the years.

he doesnt care.

[antlercarver]

Originally Posted by CNP

Fires are a naturally occurring event, discounting the fires started by humans and are a necessary part of forest health. When we place infrastructure and homes in the line of fire we have a tendency to start pointing fingers instead of wondering why we place these facilities in vulnerable locations.

Canada, as a nation, is not nor should it be responsible for maintaining a fleet of water bombers. Forests belong to a tier below the level of the federal government. Privatizing such a thing is the way to go in my books. If entrepeneurs can make a go of it, good for them. If they can't make a go of it, well.....

Your suggestion that that air force and it's fleet of fighters is useless and they don't do anything is such a shallow opinion that I can't even bring myself to invalidate that for you. Canada, as a nation, needs a strong defense, that is the top priority for any federal government. People want the federal government down in the weeds doing the most trivial things for them, things that they should be doing for themselves.

No, Canada does not need a fleet of water bombers. If you're thinking that the airforce should swap their fighters for water bombers that's another ill advised train of thought. National defense is not the peace corp, not the guys you call when you need your driveway shoveled out, not the guys you call when your dog is lost. Just think if it were to happen...and you needed an airforce with defensive/offensive capability...but all of the crews were fighting fires, have no weapons systems, nothing to defend the nation.....this is just such a ludicrous train of thought. Even national Search & Rescue, in my opinion, drains vital airforce resources away from defending the nation. SAR resources (aircraft/aircrew/ground crew) cannot even be counted in being a deployable force and therefore do not enhance national defense other than being a PR flag. I am a retired air force officer not a politician.

Canadas defensive capability on the world stage is a joke, When we sent a ship to the middle east several years ago, they stripped a ship that was a museum piece to get guns to put on the ship we sent.
The jets we have are dinosaurs compared to what other country's have.
I hope where you live does not burn.

[Howard Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

Coulson Aviation - Next Gen Firefighting

The moment all our Canadian fans have been waiting for.... Coulson has deployed a Large Airtanker Group to Grand Prairie, AB!

One of Coulson's Citation Bird Dogs and C-130H Large Airtankers are currently under contract to Alberta Wildfire and delivered Coulson's first load of retardant to a fire in Canada today.

While Coulson has 34 years experience fighting fires in Canada with both rotary and very large fixed wing aircraft (the Mars), today was the first time the company dropped a load of retardant with one of its Next Generation Large Airtankers, lead by one of its Citation Next Generation Bird Dog aircraft.

We are grateful the Province of Alberta gave us an opportunity to assist in this time of need and look forward to doing more good work in the days to come.

https://www.facebook.com/coulsonaviation/

>>
Don't know much about the aircraft used in firefighting Nog, yet this is very good news. Big bombers & big experience will make a big difference in the efforts to fight these damned fires.

[Quest206]

I flew helicopters for 25 years and worked countless fires alongside the CL 215's. Before the arrival of the 215's, forestry used North American B-25 Mitchell Bombers converted from their WWII duties as well as the Consolidated PBY-5A Canso. The B-25's were used to drop retardent and the Canso's could skim fill off a lake and were replaced when the 215's came out. During the 80's and 90's forestry tried more than a few different types of aircraft that had been converted for firefighing. For a couple of years I saw and worked with a turbine powered Agcat (crop sprayer) on floats that could skim fill off a lake and he was quite effective since he could use a lot smaller lake and he had quick turn around times but the fact that he could only carry the same load as a medium helicopter and having fixed and rotary wing aircraft flying in the same vicinity can be an accident waiting to happen so that didn't last long.
The dissapointing fact of the 215's and their deployment was that Alberta got the piston engines and Ontario got the tubine engine version so when they had to work at altitude (mountains) they sucked big time for power but politics always prevail and Ontario got the aircraft that should have been deployed in Alberta. Maybe if they build them here, we will get first choice.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Putting out fires for years is what causes massive forest fires.

Forests are naturally meant to burn and rejuvenate the habitat that comes back after the fire.

When you keep putting them out they build up more and more fuel.

While the knee jerk reaction is to scream more money and put out all fires like during a bad fire year… we need a more comprehensive plan that is transparent that includes letting fires burn naturally, build fire breaks and some putting fires out.

Also more education for people starting fires when out in the country.

Yes, this is definitely the root cause. From the end of the second world war up until the turn of the century (more than 50 years) the POLICY of many (most) jurisdictions was to immediately put out ANY and ALL fires.

This Policy, as you noted, created an entire country full of fuel which takes a hot popcorn fart to set that dry forest ablaze and with a heat and intensity where it makes it impossible to control.

It will take decades to return this to a natural balance.

[Desert Eagle]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

Coulson Aviation - Next Gen Firefighting

The moment all our Canadian fans have been waiting for.... Coulson has deployed a Large Airtanker Group to Grand Prairie, AB!

One of Coulson's Citation Bird Dogs and C-130H Large Airtankers are currently under contract to Alberta Wildfire and delivered Coulson's first load of retardant to a fire in Canada today.

While Coulson has 34 years experience fighting fires in Canada with both rotary and very large fixed wing aircraft (the Mars), today was the first time the company dropped a load of retardant with one of its Next Generation Large Airtankers, lead by one of its Citation Next Generation Bird Dog aircraft.

We are grateful the Province of Alberta gave us an opportunity to assist in this time of need and look forward to doing more good work in the days to come.

https://www.facebook.com/coulsonaviation/

They have been up here since Thursday last week. It’s a pretty awesome plane. Haven’t got to see it do any drops, but have saw it flying in the area a lot.

[Supergrit]

Maybe some more strategic logging around towns might help save a town from destruction. There is panes in the air and from what I learned here is that they are private. Kind of makes sense all the cats water haulers etc are private too. From what I have seen people that have fire equitment it’s a boom or bust industry. Some years they pay for insurance and maintenance on the machines and they never get used other years it’s work 24/7. Kind of hard to justify maintenance for a government water bomber service.

More good air planes like the CL 215 or what ever the upgrade version of that is would be useful tool to fight fires. When it’s dry and the wind is wrong we are at mercy of the fire there isn’t much that can be done while it is happening. Fires that happen like the one in fort McMurray have to dealt with years before they happen. Fire breaks cleaning under brush ect

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by Supergrit

Maybe some more strategic logging around towns might help save a town from destruction. There is panes in the air and from what I learned here is that they are private. Kind of makes sense all the cats water haulers etc are private too. From what I have seen people that have fire equitment it’s a boom or bust industry. Some years they pay for insurance and maintenance on the machines and they never get used other years it’s work 24/7. Kind of hard to justify maintenance for a government water bomber service.

More good air planes like the CL 215 or what ever the upgrade version of that is would be useful tool to fight fires. When it’s dry and the wind is wrong we are at mercy of the fire there isn’t much that can be done while it is happening. Fires that happen like the one in fort McMurray have to dealt with years before they happen. Fire breaks cleaning under brush ect

Someone gets it, fires are best fought before they occur.

Grizz

[Big Grey Wolf]

I enjoyed the comments that homes should not be built in forests. Where the hell do you think we could build our resource towns like Fox Creek, Edson, McMurray, etc etc. Maybe on prairie by Brooks? then drive 500 km to work each day.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by EZM

Yes, this is definitely the root cause. From the end of the second world war up until the turn of the century (more than 50 years) the POLICY of many (most) jurisdictions was to immediately put out ANY and ALL fires.

This Policy, as you noted, created an entire country full of fuel which takes a hot popcorn fart to set that dry forest ablaze and with a heat and intensity where it makes it impossible to control.

It will take decades to return this to a natural balance.

Not sure how intertwined if at all Canadian forestry and the USFS is but it was the Mann Gulch fire that really changed the way the USFS approached fire suppression. I believe that was in 1949. I will say they’ve gotten very good at fighting fire but as mentioned now you have old growth forests that are full of fuel and primed for the big one. Im all for protecting private property etc… but if that fire is in the middle of nowhere and nothing is in danger outside of the forest, let it burn and monitor it from the air.