Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[walking buffalo]

From what I am hearing, F&W is a Coltman convert.

If correct, F&W is making the argument that Hunting has caused a genetic change in our bighorn population, province wide.


Lets see the data, not just a pie graph, but the actual data that was used to come to the conclusion Hunting bighorn sheep by curl restriction has caused a genetic drift towards smaller horns.


This is a HUGE discovery. First time ever in the whole world.


Be very afraid "Trophy" hunters around the world, as the pressure will be on to reduce shooting big bucks, bulls, bears, and cats, as SRD F&W has proven it causes genetic damage to the whole population.


Or maybe it is simply a case of environmental factors that have produced smaller rams recently. You know, degraded habitat and a couple of harsh winters.

[209x50]

The sample is so very small and the trend is just a couple of years. It is hard to place a lot of weight on it just being hunting when there are so many environmental variables that are far more likely the cause.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

From what I am hearing, F&W is a Coltman convert.

If correct, F&W is making the argument that Hunting has caused a genetic change in our bighorn population, province wide.


Lets see the data, not just a pie graph, but the actual data that was used to come to the conclusion Hunting bighorn sheep by curl restriction has caused a genetic drift towards smaller horns.


This is a HUGE discovery. First time ever in the whole world.


Be very afraid "Trophy" hunters around the world, as the pressure will be on to reduce shooting big bucks, bulls, bears, and cats, as SRD F&W has proven it causes genetic damage to the whole population.


Or maybe it is simply a case of environmental factors that have produced smaller rams recently. You know, degraded habitat and a couple of harsh winters.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
WOW, Boy thats a mouthful aint it WB! I agree 100% 209x50, but its the spice and sarcasm I have a real weakness for,, man it just sounds better! LOLOL Some of this stuff should be published as gospell

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

From what I am hearing, F&W is a Coltman convert.

If correct, F&W is making the argument that Hunting has caused a genetic change in our bighorn population, province wide.


Lets see the data, not just a pie graph, but the actual data that was used to come to the conclusion Hunting bighorn sheep by curl restriction has caused a genetic drift towards smaller horns.


This is a HUGE discovery. First time ever in the whole world.


Be very afraid "Trophy" hunters around the world, as the pressure will be on to reduce shooting big bucks, bulls, bears, and cats, as SRD F&W has proven it causes genetic damage to the whole population.


Or maybe it is simply a case of environmental factors that have produced smaller rams recently. You know, degraded habitat and a couple of harsh winters.

WOW ! LoL

Well I guess that proves that the animals with the most inches are always the animals passing there genes, so anything under 200 inches is sterile...lol.........Guess thats why there's no mule deer in Alberta too, Everyone in the Mule Deer thread is to blame !

Next thing SRD will be saying is that they have the best game management skills and resources on the planet, and there analysis are bang on. But hunters ruin all there plans and hard work........?!

[walking buffalo]

From SRD to AGMAG.

2. Sheep – decline in quality and number of trophy rams
• Age of harvested rams increasing in most Sheep Management.
• Areas (SMAs) as a result of decline in 4-5 yr olds.
• Trophy rams are now older (selection against fast growing rams?)
• Where harvest pressure is high, horn length and base circumference is declining. Base circumference also decreasing with age.
• 8/10 SMA’s have less than the goal of 5% trophy rams (one of 2 exceptions is Cadomen).
• Likely over harvest in SMAs in 80’s and 90’s.
• Artificial selection against large horned rams.

Hunting Mortality from Non-Treaty Humans is now considered "Artificial".

Seriously? As a Non-Treaty human, according to SRD, my actions are not natural?
My multi-million year old genetic drive to hunt is now considered "Artificial"?

C'mon SRD, WHAT THE H*LL ARE YOU THINKING!

NASA, We have a Problem....

Originally Posted by pottymouth

WOW ! LoL

Well I guess that proves that the animals with the most inches are always the animals passing there genes, so anything under 200 inches is sterile...lol.........Guess thats why there's no mule deer in Alberta too, Everyone in the Mule Deer thread is to blame !

Next thing SRD will be saying is that they have the best game management skills and resources on the planet, and there analysis are bang on. But hunters ruin all there plans and hard work........?!

While it sounds crazy potty, SRD is hanging their hat on some, while debateable science, science none-the-less. They didn't invent this stuff, they adopted it. Apparently ignoring the science that has done much to debunk it in the process.

[Single Malt]

I wonder if any of the biologists know what percentage of the genetic code for horn growth (both length and circumference) is within the female (ewe) genetics…. Any ideas?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While it sounds crazy potty, SRD is hanging their hat on some, while debateable science, science none-the-less. They didn't invent this stuff, they adopted it. Apparently ignoring the science that has done much to debunk it in the process.

Coltman is Very debatable science. I'd love for F&W to provide the full data so the dabate may begin.



I have warned about Coltman on this forum for two years, with little feedback.

The rooster has flown to the tree.







I'm now warning fellow hunters about the seriousness of this statement by SRD.

Artificial selection against large horned rams.

In "OPTIMAL HARVESTING OF MOOSE IN ALBERTA"
by Cailin Xu and Mark S. Boyce,
http://alcesjournal.org/alces/article/viewFile/57/80

For the purpose of moose mortality accounting, the researchers

"considered female and bull mortality by predation or aboriginal harvest to be part of natural mortality."

SRD is separating Aboriginal and Non Aboriginal wildlife harvest by definition into Natural and Artificial.

The future legal ramifications of these defining adjectives for Non treaty hunters are potentially devastating. Non-natural causes of mortality are top priority for elimination with new wildlife management plans.

This is another baby step towards taking away our Natural Right to Harvest Food!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

I wonder if any of the biologists know what percentage of the genetic code for horn growth (both length and circumference) is within the female (ewe) genetics…. Any ideas?

Funded by our own ACA, funded in the majority by hunting and fishing licence levies, Coltman is working on it. Be VERY afraid.

Genetic linkage map of a wild genome: genomic structure, recombination and sexual dimorphism in bighorn sheephttp://metapress.com/content/d1g4712...4/fulltext.pdf

Coltman is continueing the Hunter influenced genetic angle through ACA funded research. IMO, this is why the area was closed to hunting, for the research paper.
http://www.acabiodiversity.ca/archiv...011AwardYr.pdf
Page 2 -
Joshua Miller David Coltman University of Alberta
A conservation genomic assessment of bighorn sheep harvesting

[bdub]

I wonder why Montana and other states have produced such monster rams out of recently new herds. Is it because the sheep are introduced into recently unutilized habitat that they produce such awesome sized rams. If so it seems to me that part of the problem must be related to habitat issues such as fire suppression that has gone on for so long in Alberta. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by bdub

If so it seems to me that part of the problem must be related to habitat issues such as fire suppression that has gone on for so long in Alberta. Just a thought.

A very good thought I'd say.

[callthemilkman]

The way I see it. If they are going to put one of these rules into affect I would rather be able to hunt sheep every year until i find my trophy ram and shoot it, rather than put in for a draw and maybe get to go once every three years. If I know i won't be able to hunt for five years if I shoot a small ram i darn sure am going to make sure I shoot a mature animal. I think everyone on here loves to hunt. Personally, I want to be in the field as much as I can and if that means having to harvest an older ram I will hold out so I can hunt more.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm so confused now. I thought I had it figured out what the problem was but now, with this new info, I don't have a clue again.

That's exactly how the government wants it!!!!

Originally Posted by ram crazy

That's exactly how the government wants it!!!!

LOL...it's working. To their credit, that have been somewhat forthcoming with info to my requests.

[st99]

SRD is separating Aboriginal and Non Aboriginal wildlife harvest by definition into Natural and Artificial.


This is very bad for us, it could hurt hunting seriously on the long run, wording like that could be the start of the end of our tradition as a natural predator. It sad to see what happened to us, for thousands of years we all were hunters and suddenly according to a few it is bad. We have to pressure SRD to correct those statement.

We got to keep on them!! Problem with SRD is stubborn biologists at the top of the ladder often take controversial science and apply it to management. This is not the first time very good data and research has been ignored to accomodate an idea that hardly has backing. A few of the fishery guys are well known for ignoring good data they don't feel like acknowleding because it interferes with their personal agendas. Hope it doesn't turn out to be the same case here, sure looking that way...

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by jrs

This is not the first time very good data and research has been ignored to accomodate an idea that hardly has backing. A few of the fishery guys are well known for ignoring good data they don't feel like acknowleding because it interferes with their personal agendas. ...

that sounds very much like the cwd program in this province.

[heretohunt]

Originally Posted by callthemilkman

The way I see it. If they are going to put one of these rules into affect I would rather be able to hunt sheep every year until i find my trophy ram and shoot it, rather than put in for a draw and maybe get to go once every three years. If I know i won't be able to hunt for five years if I shoot a small ram i darn sure am going to make sure I shoot a mature animal. I think everyone on here loves to hunt. Personally, I want to be in the field as much as I can and if that means having to harvest an older ram I will hold out so I can hunt more.

If that is an option, I'll take it too.

[depopulator]

An interesting point was raised in another thread about residents guiding residents for sheep, but it raised another important issue.

Basically, in Alberta, in accordance with the Wildlife Regulation, a resident would need a big game guide designation (guide-outfitter permit) to guide, for gain or reward, a resident licence holder while they are hunting big game for which they are legally authorized to hunt.

But there are two guide-outfitters permits, a Class T and Class S. A Class T outfitter-guide permit (a read: can be obtained by Regular Joe Alberta Resident, for the most part) authorizes its holder to enter into a contract with a resident for guiding services respecting any lawful hunting by that resident of big game, except trophy sheep, wolf or coyote. Only a holder of a Class S outfitter-guide permit can guide residents to trophy sheep, and the conditions of acquiring a Class S guide-outfitter permit is pretty much limited to APOS. Basically a regular Joe Albertan will never be able to lawfully guide a resident to trophy sheep – the regulation spells it out pretty clearly.

So (I am quoting WB here; [...] is me), Trophy Sheep hunting is under immense pressure from a group of influential biologists [and whoever they actually represent]. The main concern of these people is that hunting selection of Big rams is changing the genetics in the herds. Their desire is to see a reduction in the number of rams harvested each year through a very limited draw system. Outfitters have a much higher success rate than non-guided hunters. Perhaps the Class S outfitters should no longer be allowed to guide Residents. This would likely help reduce ram harvest without the implementation of a draw.

Further, if the resident sheep draw turned into a “once in a lifetime” tag (like most already are in Alberta), residents would be much more inclined to hire an [Class S] outfitter, whereby APOS would hold that monopoly as well. Seems like APOS has a lot to gain if sheep goes to draw based on the aforementioned alone.

[decker]

I think most resident hunters going for bighorn would want to do it for themselves or with the help of some more experienced sheep hunters. Instead of paying the $$ to a Outfitter to do all the work for them.

Thats the best part of sheep hunting finding new areas, sitting and glassing, and seeing sheep.

[drake]

Originally Posted by decker

I think most resident hunters going for bighorn would want to do it for themselves or with the help of some more experienced sheep hunters. Instead of paying the $$ to a Outfitter to do all the work for them.
Thats the best part of sheep hunting finding new areas, sitting and glassing, and seeing sheep.

You would be suprised....ive bumped into residents being guided a few times.

Originally Posted by decker

I think most resident hunters going for bighorn would want to do it for themselves or with the help of some more experienced sheep hunters. Instead of paying the $$ to a Outfitter to do all the work for them.

Thats the best part of sheep hunting finding new areas, sitting and glassing, and seeing sheep.

While I certainly agree with your last statement Decker I just can't help wonder if people only ever drew one or two tags in their life if they wouldn't just hire a guide. They'd likely have minimal gear, experience and knowledge about sheep hunting because they'd never have had the opportunity to gain it like we do now. I think a lot of people would go guided. That whole pool of experienced sheep hunters would quickly dry up too.

[decker]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While I certainly agree with your last statement Decker I just can't help wonder if people only ever drew one or two tags in their life if they wouldn't just hire a guide. They'd likely have minimal gear, experience and knowledge about sheep hunting because they'd never have had the opportunity to gain it like we do now. I think a lot of people would go guided. That whole pool of experienced sheep hunters would quickly dry up too.

I suppose your right sheephunter, and in a way that is probably the best way to go if your not willing to put in a litte effort on your own.

Originally Posted by decker

I suppose your right sheephunter, and in a way that is probably the best way to go if your not willing to put in a litte effort on your own.

Ya, not even sure it would have anything to do with whether they were willing or not, just they would have never had the opportunity before. I think what first gets most people in the sheep mountains the first time is the opportunity to take a ram. Without that general opportunity there would be no incentive to the first timers because they may not draw a tag for 10 or 20 years. Once you've had a taste of it it's different but not sure how people would ever get tyhat first taste...until they drew a tag. Man I'd hate to see Alberta come to that....we'd lose a long tradation of sheep hunting and eventually we'd end up like the U.S. where the mentors are the paid guides.

[walking buffalo]

I'll listen to Smoke and return the focus to the real issue with potential changes to Ram hunting in Alberta.

In the last few weeks I have been gathering all the info that I can, with help of forum members and others. Still waiting for the Provincial Data to be released.





A quick summary.

- Overall sheep populations numbers are healthy. Predation does not seem to be the issue, unless the predation is focused on Rams (cougars?). Ther does not seem to have been any data collected to establish the overall Sheep Health.


- Aerial Surveys show a low percentage of Legal Rams in the population. Most Sheep management Areas (SMA) were counted as having 4-4.5% Legal Rams where the desired number is 5%. On average, the shortfall is between 2-6 legal rams per SMA. Only Sheep on "Traditional" winter ranges are counted. Sheep observed away from these ranges are NOT counted in the survey. The Surveys estimated that 55% of sheep are counted.


- F&W is claiming that since 2005, registered rams are on average of an older age, and have a smaller horn length and base circumference. Based on theories from a closed group of Researchers, the cause may be Hunter induced, or environmetal, or a combination of factors, including human error in the data collection. Rather than confirming the cause, F&W is pushing for a reduction in Ram harvest based on the potential that Hunting is causing an "artificial" genetic selection for smaller, slower growing rams.




The real fight that we have on our hands is not with the Outfitters, it is with F&W and these researchers.

F&W, release ALL the data, let the Public have a fair analysis of the concerns, possible causes, sources of error. F&W, Don't keep this debate within AGMAG.
Don't Ram this through without Public Consultation!




This is very revealing information regarding the Researchers position on "Trophy" hunting, and their desired changes to the hunting regulations.

PLEASE READ THESE PAPERS.This is what the Sheep hunting changes are all about.


Ecology, Evolution, Economics, and Ungulate Management
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...s/MFB-WS07.pdf

Harvest Regulations and Artificial Selection on Horn Size in Male Bighorn Sheep
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...eveldJWM11.pdf

FEARED NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF PUBLISHING DATA:
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/pdffiles/NWSGC08.pdf

[bdub]

Originally Posted by steve

I cant encourage you guys enough to take five minutes and fire off a few emails. Stating questions and concerns. If it would happen to go to draw, it could go from a 2 year wait to a 12 year wait in a blink of an eye. Think of the rare AB grizzly.




ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

rick.blackwood@gov.ab.ca

SRD.minister@gov.ab.ca

peace.river@assembly.ab.ca

srd.infocent@gov.ab.ca

Calgary.Lougheed@assembly.ab.ca

pelong@telus.net

james.allen@gov.ab.ca

Rob.Corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Maybe a good time to bring this list to the end of the thread. Thanks Steve.

[Smoke]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;1264447]I'll listen to Smoke and return the focus to the real issue with potential changes to Ram hunting in Alberta.

In the last few weeks I have been gathering all the info that I can, with help of forum members and others. Still waiting for the Provincial Data to be released.





A quick summary.

- Overall sheep populations numbers are healthy. Predation does not seem to be the issue, unless the predation is focused on Rams (cougars?). Ther does not seem to have been any data collected to establish the overall Sheep Health.


- Aerial Surveys show a low percentage of Legal Rams in the population. Most Sheep management Areas (SMA) were counted as having 4-4.5% Legal Rams where the desired number is 5%. On average, the shortfall is between 2-6 legal rams per SMA. Only Sheep on "Traditional" winter ranges are counted. Sheep observed away from these ranges are NOT counted in the survey. The Surveys estimated that 55% of sheep are counted.


- F&W is claiming that since 2005, registered rams are on average of an older age, and have a smaller horn length and base circumference. Based on theories from a closed group of Researchers, the cause may be Hunter induced, or environmetal, or a combination of factors, including human error in the data collection. Rather than confirming the cause, F&W is pushing for a reduction in Ram harvest based on the potential that Hunting is causing an "artificial" genetic selection for smaller, slower growing rams.




The real fight that we have on our hands is not with the Outfitters, it is with F&W and these researchers.

F&W, release ALL the data, let the Public have a fair analysis of the concerns, possible causes, sources of error. F&W, Don't keep this debate within AGMAG.
Don't Ram this through without Public Consultation!




This is very revealing information regarding the Researchers position on "Trophy" hunting, and their desired changes to the hunting regulations.

PLEASE READ THESE PAPERS.This is what the Sheep hunting changes are all about.


Ecology, Evolution, Economics, and Ungulate Management
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...s/MFB-WS07.pdf

Harvest Regulations and Artificial Selection on Horn Size in Male Bighorn Sheep
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...eveldJWM11.pdf

FEARED NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF PUBLISHING DATA:
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/pdffiles/NWSGC08.pdf[/Q

I have had a keen interest in Sheep management since about the time that the 4\5 rule was put in. This rule gave managers the reassurance that there would be plenty of rams to do the breeding. In most areas that meant the rams got to live without being hunted till 6.5. Never in any conversations with managers was there talk about a 5% carry over of mature rams. Any time the conversation came up the reassurance was that with this rule their would always be ample rams to do the job, and this came from the managers.

This 5% deal is new to me, maybe it was there in the past and not discussed or maybe not. Anyway, my own experience shows that ram abundance has not changed over time, most mature rams are in the National Park or protected area till the season is over. So this hypothetical number of 4.5 is just a little less but it may be a big enough excuse to kick most of us out of the back country, just remember if sheep go on draw, the normal two thousand tags will turn into about 20,000 applications real quick. Which in turn will lead to a once in a lifetime more than one in three years.

Once again, with the crash of deer throughout the mountains and lack of elk to feed the territorial cougars and wolves, sheep are about all thats left. Lets campaign on this point.

I love cougar hunting as much or more than most but the truth is, if we don't drastically reduce the numbers of all these predators soon???????

I truly believe our managers feel the draw system is very effective, they have about mastered it and in alot of situations is very effective, and I think, no matter what, that is what they want it to become. Unfortunately a one in a hundred chance is not good. If you think I am wrong on these estimations, thats fine but when word gets out that you may only get one chance our human nature will lead many that would not normally buy a tag to apply for the draw. I guess time will tell.

Anyway, I think we need to fight the good fight, we need to stand to together, ask for the status quo and help increase our sheep populations by other techniques.

[SLH]

The 5% is part of the Sheep Management Plan which is still being used to help make some of the decisions on this issue.

3.3.2.1

[walking buffalo]

How long will it take for F&W to post the data on their webpage? Any guesses?




I hear that some of the regional bios have just completed compiling the data.

The regional data has just been compiled?




We have a cart (proposed regulation changes),

Now we need a horse ( Sheep harvest data) .

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by SLH

The 5% is part of the Sheep Management Plan which is still being used to help make some of the decisions on this issue.

3.3.2.1

Yes, I understand, my point is that it has not changed, has been there a long time but has just recently become the Holy Grail to implement change. Just remember much of this talk has come about by unhappy hunters. Seriously, very little has changed as far as numbers and quality but, we have, and to be put bluntly, we have done alot of whining. And another thing, there are some of us that 'Would Cut off Our Noses To Spite Our Face' and those guys are the ones that likely already have done their sheep hunting.

I guess their is a point in time when the density of sheep hunters will just get to high but so far I think it has been pretty stable for the last twenty years.