Hodgdon data

[KegRiver]

I have a question.

To set the stage, I'm working up a load for my 218 Bee.

So I figured I'd look for the most current load date, what I found is Hodgdon's reloading center data.
It seems to be about the only data online and therefor easiest to access.


The formula is; Winchester model 43 in 218 Bee, WW brass, CCI small rifle primers, 40 grain sierra SP bullets and 12 grains of Lil'Gun


So I start just below the min. load listed and load five rounds. First one shows very flattened primer and difficult bolt lift.
Thinking I must have screwed up that load somehow I go to the second round. Second one shows flattened primer and difficult bolt lift. and possible start of case separation. So I stop, return to the bench, pull the remaining bullets, and re weigh the charges thinking I had somehow loading the wrong weight.

So maybe I messed up somewhere else, so I re-calibrate everything check and double check the powder type but find nothing obvious.

Not knowing where else to look I decide to try a third round so I reload the remaining three, being very careful to get the weight exactly to the weight specified. 12.5 grains of Lil'Gun and test.

First round, second attempt, suffers complete case separation, hard bolt lift and severely flattened primer.

Now I am sure I did not mess up the load so what's going on?

One of the reasons I chose to go with new data is that I wanted to use Hodgdon's Lil Gun and none of my manuals list that powder.

None the less I decide to check my old manuals to see if there is any differences in loads listed in them and the new Hodgdon data.
I wasn't expecting any, they are all supposed to be safe loads for the majority of guns are they not. So I was just grasping at straws, or so I thought.
What I found shocked me.

I have been using IMR 4895 for that load as per my reloading manuals, with no issues. The Hodgdon data showed loads for IMR 4895 starting at what Sierra and Hornady listed as max loads.

Okay, I know Hodgdon bought out IMR so maybe they changed the powder they acquired from IMR so I check loads for other powders and other cartridges. I find an alarming number, including some Hodgdon powder loads that list starting loads that my manuals list as max loads.

So what gives?

I'm not looking for reloading advice or what charges to use. I only want to know if anyone knows why Hodgdon now lists loads so much higher then even their own load manual.

[leo]

Load data is subjective to a couple of things that can't be replicated. The firearm used, and the lot number of powder. The loads were deemed safe in the test firearm they used with the lot of powder used.

[Dean2]

I have over the years used the Hodgdon data a lot. I too have found some of their loads really quite hot, depending on the gun. I always cross check their loads with other manuals, start at whichever is the lower min and work up to whichever is the higher max carefully, and paying close attention to pressure signs. I let the velocity and gun tell me when I have reached max load. I always use a Chronograph when developing loads. Did you speed check the loads you were making.

With respect to the particular load you are working on, I load 12.6 grains of Lil'Gun in 22 Hornet with WW brass, Fed Small Pistol Primer and a 40 grain Vmax. I have shot that load in a couple of dozen Hornets and never had pressure problems. My 218 Bee is in a Ruger #3. Being quite a bit bigger case, I have loaded as high as 14 grains, with a 40 grain Vmax in WW cases with no pressure signs. In the 221 Fireball I have loaded as much as 17 grains of Lil'Gun, WW case, Fed SR primer and 40 Vmax.

There are two possibilities with your loads. One, you got a hot batch of Lil'Gun, it happens quite often with that powder. I buy it in 8 Lb kegs, and work the load back up if I have to switch to a new lot. Second, your gun may have headspace issues. Both the Hornet and the Bee headspace on the rim, after the first firing, I neck size only so it will also headspace on the neck. I do this because the Rim thickness of various brass is quite a bit different. If you are shooting FL sized brass or new brass you may be getting a lot of stretch in that first firing. Try measuring your rim thickness and compare it to what they should be.

My best advice is back down to 11 grains, and measure the velocity. Workup .1 grain at a time. When you get to max published velocity you have reached max load. If you see pressure signs before max velocity, you have reached max load in that gun.

[elkhunter11]

I found the same issue with my Lil Gun loads for the 17hornet, my max load, is actually less than the min load listed on the Hodgdons site. However, my load produces slightly more velocity than the max load listed on the Hodgdons site. The bottom line is that if a person starts at around the minimum load, and watches for pressure signs, you can usually avoid major issues. The people that mistakenly assume that all of the loads listed in the manuals, are safe in all rifles, and do stupid things like starting at the max loads, are the ones that usually get into trouble, with blown primers, and locked bolts.

[silver]

I can't answer your question.

I read your post, checked my own manuals and rechecked Hodgdon web site. The only manual that I have that lists Lil Gun is Speer and it's powder charges are low. I use the powder range as listed on the Hodgdon site and they work well...in my rifle.

[Nyksta]

The one thing that is never listed on any load data is the jump distance used. I am beginning to think that the majority of listed data max loads are not tested with the common reloaders bullet jump of 0.020". The spec COAL is always given, but the rifling of every barrel changes and who knows what jump was taking place in the powder load test.

The closer you get to the lands, the higher the pressure. I can go much higher loads with a long jump, and really have to back off if i get around 0.015"... just a thought possibly on why you may have had high pressures right off the start. Not sure what your loaded jump was.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by leo

Load data is subjective to a couple of things that can't be replicated. The firearm used, and the lot number of powder. The loads were deemed safe in the test firearm they used with the lot of powder used.

Yeah I know and it is one thing I thought might explain what I found.

I've heard that some of the new rifles have much better steel and are better engineered. But I haven't heard of much happening with the 218.

Besides, this seems too extreme to be just a matter of differences between powder batches or new manufacturing techniques.

I mean it might make sense if it were just one caliber or one make of gun but I found several different loads for different calibers involving several different powders where Hodgdon's online date started at loads deemed maximum in my reloading manuals.

Another thing that puzzles me. Let's say that the online data is only for the most recent manufactured guns and is not intended for use in older guns.
Why wouldn't that be clearly stated?

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where published reloading information from a powder manufacturer might be seriously unsafe in any rifle.

Yet that seems to be the case here.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I have over the years used the Hodgdon data a lot. I too have found some of their loads really quite hot, depending on the gun. I always cross check their loads with other manuals, start at whichever is the lower min and work up to whichever is the higher max carefully, and paying close attention to pressure signs. I let the velocity and gun tell me when I have reached max load. I always use a Chronograph when developing loads. Did you speed check the loads you were making.

With respect to the particular load you are working on, I load 12.6 grains of Lil'Gun in 22 Hornet with WW brass, Fed Small Pistol Primer and a 40 grain Vmax. I have shot that load in a couple of dozen Hornets and never had pressure problems. My 218 Bee is in a Ruger #3. Being quite a bit bigger case, I have loaded as high as 14 grains, with a 40 grain Vmax in WW cases with no pressure signs. In the 221 Fireball I have loaded as much as 17 grains of Lil'Gun, WW case, Fed SR primer and 40 Vmax.

There are two possibilities with your loads. One, you got a hot batch of Lil'Gun, it happens quite often with that powder. I buy it in 8 Lb kegs, and work the load back up if I have to switch to a new lot. Second, your gun may have headspace issues. Both the Hornet and the Bee headspace on the rim, after the first firing, I neck size only so it will also headspace on the neck. I do this because the Rim thickness of various brass is quite a bit different. If you are shooting FL sized brass or new brass you may be getting a lot of stretch in that first firing. Try measuring your rim thickness and compare it to what they should be.

My best advice is back down to 11 grains, and measure the velocity. Workup .1 grain at a time. When you get to max published velocity you have reached max load. If you see pressure signs before max velocity, you have reached max load in that gun.

I set up my chrony but got an error every time. I think there wasn't enough light. It has been very foggy and overcast here for several days now.

12.6 grains of Lil'Gun in 22 Hornet. Well that about says it. I must have a bad batch of Lil'Gun.
But what about the other calibers? Isn't starting at the old max loads a bit extreme?

I prefer to neck size only but do full length size if I'm unsure of the brass. Some of my brass was acquired with the rifle, which came to me from my deceased uncles estate via a nephew. So that brass is sorta an unknown.

All my brass for this rifle is Winchester. but some may be over sixty years old Winchester brass.
Plus, I have reloaded for this rifle with this brass but another powder bullet combination from reloading manual data, and had no issues.

[silver]

Just spit balling here, but maybe try a different bullet. I remember reading an article a while back (sorry, can't remember where or when) and the article was talking about bullets from different companies using different jacket composition and thickness. There were varied pressure results from different companies. I am using a 40 grain Hornady in my loads.

[elkhunter11]

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where published reloading information from a powder manufacturer might be seriously unsafe in any rifle.

It is not as rare as you might think, which is why the manuals list starting loads, and advise loaders to watch for pressure signs. Thinking that all loads will be safe in pretty much any rifle, is the reason that some people get themselves into trouble. Loading is not the lace for assumptions or shortcuts, if you start low, and work up, you may observe situations like you did, but ultimately, because you started low, no serious damage resulted.

Just spit balling here, but maybe try a different bullet. I remember reading an article a while back (sorry, can't remember where or when) and the article was talking about bullets from different companies using different jacket composition and thickness. There were varied pressure results from different companies. I am using a 40 grain Hornady in my loads.

In the case of my 17Hornet loads, I used the exact same, bullet, case, powder, and primer, so no variations from the data on the site. My COL was also pretty much the same. My results were pretty much the same in three factory rifles. I know several other people that had the same results, with the same components, although they were likely from different lots.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It is not as rare as you might think, which is why the manuals list starting loads, and advise loaders to watch for pressure signs. Thinking that all loads will be safe in pretty much any rifle, is the reason that some people get themselves into trouble. Loading is not the lace for assumptions or shortcuts, if you start low, and work up, you may observe situations like you did, but ultimately, because you started low, no serious damage resulted.

I do start at minimum and I do consider that it may be close to max, but it seems to me that a total case separation at minimum charge is beyond what one should reasonably expect.

For me the bigger issue is the discrepancy between the online data and my reloading manuals.

A few grains difference does not surprise me at all but as I said, I found several loads for a number of different calibers where Hodgdon's data started where my manuals stopped.

And some of those loads in the manuals are loads I had used in working up loads for other rifles in the past.

A bad batch of powder makes more sense to me then anything else.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I do start at minimum and I do consider that it may be close to max, but it seems to me that a total case separation at minimum charge is beyond what one should reasonably expect.

For me the bigger issue is the discrepancy between the online data and my reloading manuals.

A few grains difference does not surprise me at all but as I said, I found several loads for a number of different calibers where Hodgdon's data started where my manuals stopped.

And some of those loads in the manuals are loads I had used in working up loads for other rifles in the past.

A bad batch of powder makes more sense to me then anything else.

Another thing to consider, is in cartridges that use say 50gr of powder, a full grain is only 2% of the powder charge, whereas in a cartridge using 10gr, a difference of one grain is 10%. As well, an extra few thousandths of an inch in the chamber dimension, effects the small cases much more than a larger case.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I set up my chrony but got an error every time. I think there wasn't enough light. It has been very foggy and overcast here for several days now.

12.6 grains of Lil'Gun in 22 Hornet. Well that about says it. I must have a bad batch of Lil'Gun.
But what about the other calibers? Isn't starting at the old max loads a bit extreme?

First, I don't think you have a bad batch. Hornet and Bee cases are really small. Min to max load is about 8%, or one grain to 1.5 grains. It does not take much of a change in a batches burn rate to show up in those small cases. Just changing from small pistol to small rifle primers can be enough to push a load over max that previously showed no pressure signs. Another example, REm cases have quite a lot bigger capacity than WW. You will often find that just changing cases will affect your velocity by as much as 300 FPS in a 22 Hornet. That is a lot of pressure change from a case switch. All of this is much different than loading for 30-06 where a 1 grain difference or case change is rarely even noticeable.

If you re-read what I posted I suggested you start at the lowest published min and work up carefully to the highest published max, watching for pressure and measuring velocity. I would never suggest starting at any published max.

As to Hornady's published data, they actually pressure test all of the loads they publish. The pressures are actual, not calculated ones like some other manuals. Just because it made safe pressure with that EXACT load, that lot of primers and powder in that specific gun doesn't mean it will be the same in your gun.

I have only ever had one gun where Hodgdon's min load was too hot. Like Elk11, my 17 Hornet load is below their min, (I am running 9.6 grains of LG, 20 grain Vmax in Hornady and Privi cases) and I still get the 3,600 fps vel of their max published load. Evidence that an even smaller case with a smaller bore is even more susceptible to case capacity, primer, powder lot, clambering dimensions etc. I even had one batch of Hornady factory ammo, when it was first released, that was too hot for the gun. Hornady has since dropped their factory load down a bit because there were lots of complaints about it being too hot in many guns. I have had lots of guns where I reached max velocity or started showing pressure signs long before I got to their max published loads.

I cannot over state just how much the small cases are affected by stuff that will NEVER show up in larger cases.

[KegRiver]

Well I popped over to my reloading bench and loaded one round with 11 grains of Lil'Gun. Then went out on the front step and pointed the barrel at the sky and pulled the trigger.

Bolt was a bit stiff and primer totally flattened but it was a bit better. Not as stiff or as flattened.

I'm going to assume this batch of Lil'Gun is faulty and dump it. I don't like messing with unkowns.

[KegRiver]

Okay, here is some data straight from the load data.

First; 218 bee 40 gr SP Hodgdon H110 powder



Hodgdon online data starting load 12.5 max load 13.3
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 no starting load, max load 9.0
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 10.9 max load 11.6

Second example; 30-06 165 gr SPBT IMR 4064


Hodgdon online data starting load 49.0 max load 52.5
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 starting load NL NL
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 46.6 max load 49.9


30-30 150 gr RN Hodgdon 4895

Hodgdon online data starting load 33.0 max load 37.0
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 starting load 32 max load 35.0
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 31.6 max load 34.8

There are more but these show what I'm talking about. Have a look at the starting load in the first line of each example and compare that to the max load shown in the next two lines.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dean2

If you re-read what I posted I suggested you start at the lowest published min and work up carefully to the highest published max, watching for pressure and measuring velocity. I would never suggest starting at any published max.

I wasn't saying you said or suggested starting at max loads.

What I meant to say is that this new online data does though. At least in some cases.

Check the numbers in my previous post.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Okay, here is some data straight from the load data.

First; 218 bee 40 gr SP Hodgdon H110 powder



Hodgdon online data starting load 12.5 max load 13.3
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 no starting load, max load 9.0
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 10.9 max load 11.6

Second example; 30-06 165 gr SPBT IMR 4064


Hodgdon online data starting load 49.0 max load 52.5
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 starting load NL NL
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 46.6 max load 49.9


30-06 150 gr SP Hodgdon 4895

Hodgdon online data starting load 33.0 max load 37.0
Hodgdon reloading manual circa 1987 starting load 32 max load 35.0
Hornady reloading manual circa 1990 starting load 31.6 max load 34.8

There are more but these show what I'm talking about. Have a look at the starting load in the first line of each example and compare that to the max load shown in the next two lines.

Your 06 data is not right, by a lot. Those loads are lower than a 308 uses. You may want to recheck those.

[silver]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Well I popped over to my reloading bench and loaded one round with 11 grains of Lil'Gun. Then went out on the front step and pointed the barrel at the sky and pulled the trigger.

Bolt was a bit stiff and primer totally flattened but it was a bit better. Not as stiff or as flattened.

I'm going to assume this batch of Lil'Gun is faulty and dump it. I don't like messing with unkowns.

My Sierra manual has a starting load of 9.5 and a max of 10.5 grains. You could give those loads a try.

My 218 is happy with 13.4 grains of Lil Gun. It is easy to conclude that we have two different batches of powder.

Have you talked to Hodgdon about this problem?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dean2

As to Hornady's published data, they actually pressure test all of the loads they publish. The pressures are actual, not calculated ones like some other manuals. Just because it made safe pressure with that EXACT load, that lot of primers and powder in that specific gun doesn't mean it will be the same in your gun.

I have only ever had one gun where Hodgdon's min load was too hot. Like Elk11, my 17 Hornet load is below their min, (I am running 9.6 grains of LG, 20 grain Vmax in Hornady and Privi cases) and I still get the 3,600 fps vel of their max published load. Evidence that an even smaller case with a smaller bore is even more susceptible to case capacity, primer, powder lot, clambering dimensions etc. I even had one batch of Hornady factory ammo, when it was first released, that was too hot for the gun. Hornady has since dropped their factory load down a bit because there were lots of complaints about it being too hot in many guns. I have had lots of guns where I reached max velocity or started showing pressure signs long before I got to their max published loads.

I cannot over state just how much the small cases are affected by stuff that will NEVER show up in larger cases.

I don't think case capacity is the issue here. I have developed loads for this rifle using these cases and these bullets and my Hornady, Speer, and Sierra manuals in the past with no issues.

But thanks for the info on small cases. This is the only small case rifle I own other then rimfire rifles.
I was partially aware of the role small cases played in reloading issues but only just. I do a lot of reading but not so much remembering. LOL

You may be right about there being nothing inherently wrong with this powder.
It could be just a slightly tight chamber or tight bore coupled with a hot batch of powder and a small case . But it's useless to me without reliable load data.

Still, I wonder why the big discrepancy in some charges listed in the online data as opposed to the printed manuals.

Not for the sake of working out a load but just to understand.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Your 06 data is not right, by a lot. Those loads are lower than a 308 uses. You may want to recheck those.

The bottom is 30-30. the middle is 30-06. I had a Brain fart.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by silver

My Sierra manual has a starting load of 9.5 and a max of 10.5 grains. You could give those loads a try.

My 218 is happy with 13.4 grains of Lil Gun. It is easy to conclude that we have two different batches of powder.

Have you talked to Hodgdon about this problem?

Cool. My Sierra manual has nothing for Lil'gun. Too old I guess.

I may try the 9.5 gr load but not for a while. I'm still a bit rattled with the results I had so far.

[silver]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Cool. My Sierra manual has nothing for Lil'gun. Too old I guess.

I may try the 9.5 gr load but not for a while. I'm still a bit rattled with the results I had so far.

I just had a brain cramp. When I went to check my manuals for the edition, it wasn't my Sierra manual. It was my Speer manual #14. I did get the powder weights right.

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Cool. My Sierra manual has nothing for Lil'gun. Too old I guess.

I may try the 9.5 gr load but not for a while. I'm still a bit rattled with the results I had so far.

I had simular issues with lilgun in my 17 hornet blowing primers at starting loads swithched to h110 no issues so far

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by silver

I just had a brain cramp. When I went to check my manuals for the edition, it wasn't my Sierra manual. It was my Speer manual #14. I did get the powder weights right.

LOL You have the same problem as I have.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

I had simular issues with lilgun in my 17 hornet blowing primers at starting loads swithched to h110 no issues so far

I did order a pound of IMR 4227 in the hopes it would work better.
Maybe I should have ordered H110 instead. I did consider it.

I have heavier bullets and found IMR 4895 worked okay with them but so far haven't found anything that works well with the lighter bullets. But the velocity isn't where I'd like it.


I'm hoping I can get better velocities out of the lighter bullets. I think the lighter bullets will work as well at the ranges I shoot, usually under 100 yards.
Never over 200. I use this gun exclusively for Coyotes.

[catnthehat]

Be aware that L’il Gun and H110 can create problems with lighter charges according to Hodgdon .
Cat

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Be aware that L’il Gun and H110 can create problems with lighter charges according to Hodgdon .
Cat

Oh great!!! LOL

Well I do have a pound of 4227 on order.

[Pioneer2]

Ken Waters Pet Loads.........Fed#200 primers/Win Brass 40+45gr bullets seated @ 1.68" OAL
Most accurate 40gr load 14.5gr of 4198 doesn't say which brand/2756 fps
second most accurate 40gr /11.5gr of Win 296/2755 fps
Most accurate 45gr load 11gr/Win 296/2508 fps [MAX at 12grs for 2777 fps]
12.5gr /4227 /2789 fps 45gr bullet
14gr /4198/2635 fps/45gr bullet

[32-40win]

Heck, some old reloading manuals used case expansion and extrapolated pressure from that, which have been found to be a bit higher than they thought they were. Waters loads worked in his guns, but, you still have to be a bit cautious with them as well.
My notes on my Bee show that the manual showed 12.5-15.4 IMR 4198 on a 50gr Nos Expander ( I still have 5-600 of those). I have targets here, with 13.3gr/RP6-1/2 chrono'd at avg 2600fps and 2634 fps in a 24" bbl on a couple of 10 rd batches. Shows I took it up to 14gr, no chrono notes, but I apparently liked that load a lot.. Didn't ever really finish the load development on that gun.

Targets show MOA 10rd groups w/14gr @ 200, probably why I didn't do much after that, plus I got into archery about then.. I loaded 100 rds, some of which I still have, shot a couple of dozen yotes with it.
Shot a few hundred gophers with 45 Sierra's, shows I loaded 300 of those, they're all gone, they were 11.5 h4227/Rp6-1/2.. Shows I also tried 10.0 AA9 in it w/RP6-1/2 and a 45 Sierra,which shot well, and some 55gr cast bullets, also tried CCi400's, and I can't see where I chrono'd the 45 Sierras or cast, appears to be missing a page or two here, with that info.. Looks like I'll have to go play with it this winter. One note says to find a ball powder to use on it, 4198 and 4227 are a pain to load. Likely why I tried the AA9, still have 8-9lbs of that, go a long ways at 10.0gr loads.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

Heck, some old reloading manuals used case expansion and extrapolated pressure from that, which have been found to be a bit higher than they thought they were.

My reloading manuals aren't that old. Two even show CUP pressures, so they did use proper pressure testing in at least two of them.

Besides, it's Hodgdon's most recent data that appears to be off.

Using my manuals data I have no issues but they don't list Lil'Gun because it wasn't on the market then.

I've worked up loads for this gun a few years ago and would use that information but I don't have the necessary components in stock.

I do have IMR 4198 and Hodgdon Lil'Gun but I wanted to save my 4198 for larger calibers.

I did load a couple with the reduced Lil'Gun data Silver provided. One I loaded to 9.4 and one to 9.6. The fist showed no sign of excessive pressure when I tried it today. The Chrony showed 2589 muzzle velocity.
The second show a slightly flattened primer. Nothing serious, and a muzzle velocity of 2647

I found data for the IMR 4198 and the 40gr bullets so I loaded five of them at the listed starting load. I hope to try them tomorrow.

In the mean time I had to cancel my powder order as there is no service that will deliver it to this area.