Is cartridge selection a moot point?

[Pathfinder76]

For some unknown reason cartridge selection is usually the most agonizing decision in the gun buyers process. Ballistic programs/charts are read over, reloading manuals are worn out, friends are consulted, Dad interjects his opinion, and gun counter jockey’s walk around with bent ears.

How hard will it kick compared to “Old Betsy” (usually a 30-06 or 308)? How “flat” does it shoot? Can I hold dead on anywhere this side of the moon? Will it knock the 400 class bull Elk I’ll likely shoot this fall right into the back of my truck? Is it bigger than my buddies (that’s a little personal)? You get the idea. It’s reality if for no other reason than most of us have done it.

My first rifle was a Savage 99 C given to me by my father for Christmas when I turned 13. My younger brother received a Swedish Mauser chambered for the 6.5X55 that nearly cost Dad the use of his hand trying to wrap in a carpet tube that same year. My gift was chosen for two reasons. One, my dad knew the quality of the Savage 99 and the other was to accommodate my left hand handicap.

That Savage accounted for my first deer nearly two years later. I managed to shoot some poor little whitetail right through the lungs as he made a hasty retreat to a tree line off a meadow I happened to be watching. Dad was watching too and believed I’d missed (I don’t blame him) but I’d seen the buck break stride and watched his head drop slightly at the shot. We went to look and the fresh snow was covered in bright red frothy blood and he was just inside the tree line. Dead as a mackerel and looking for all the world a B&C trophy. The smallest B&C trophy of all time mind you.

For the next several years that .308 accounted for many deer, both Whitetail and Mule Deer, and the handloaded 125 grain Ballistic tips I shot through it seemed to lay waste to anything in their path. I did notice extensive entrance wound damage in a few instances, but who cared really as the results were quite predictable and the antlers were piling high in the barn.



The only time the 99 C caused me any grief was on a good 145 class Whitetail. I’d seen the old boy chasing does on a small clearing through a screen of aspens. Without looking down, I slowly cycled a shell into the chamber careful to keep my eye on the buck while winding my way slowly into shooting position. I finally got a clear shooting lane and at 50 or so yds pulled the trigger. All that I heard was heart dropping click as the firing pin struck nothing violent. Quickly I dropped opened the action looked into the magazine well. Behold there instead of shiny cartridges were the tops of my boots! I had no magazine! Apparently my gloved hand had tripped the release and somewhere, when shifting the rifle, it had fallen out. The deer where now in the next county and a half mile backtrack in the fresh snow had the loaded magazine back in my rifle.

Dad has always subscribed to Outdoor Life and being a farm lad with little knowledge of the outside world I assumed that this was the only hunting/shooting publication in the universe. I devoured its pages over and over and grew especially fond of the writing of Jim Carmichel. Mr. Carmichel was the shooting editor of Outdoor Life and looking back on things a pretty good mentor to learn a few firearms related tricks from. One important thing I did learn was that the 280 Remington was the best cartridge going and one would be foolish to use anything else. So, a couple of months after my 21st birthday I bought the only left handed offering so chambered, a Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker.



If accuracy is your thing that Browning had it in spades. In addition, it handled well, the short bolt throw was an easy transition for someone coming from a lever action and the stainless steel and synthetic makeup was easy to care for. I continued to use the Nosler Ballistic Tip (the 140 grain .284 version) and the game kept tipping over. However I did have a few instances of bullets blowing up and giving poor penetration on certain shot angles.



A defining moment in my gun owning career came a hunting season later. On a Whitetail hunt when pulling the trigger on the Browning, the pot metal shoe broke clean in two just below the stock line. I was mortified. Another ruined opportunity at a decent whitetail and my one and only rifle was now essentially useless. Eventually Browning replaced the trigger, but I was sour and my search for a better mousetrap had already begun.

Being left handed has limitations in life and this is especially true with firearms industry. If and when a manufacturer offers a bolt action rifle for the southpaws, cartridge selection is usually a short line-up of the same boring suspects. You can choose between the 270, 30-06, 7MM Remington Magnum, or 300 Winchester Magnum from one manufacturer or the 7MM Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 30-06, or 270 from another. Selection is limited, and short actions are an even rarer bird.

Through a bit of research I discovered that both the Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 had earned a great reputation among hunters. As an added bonus both Manufacturers offered these models in a left hand version. In time I purchased a stainless steel version of the Model 70 chambered for the 300 Winchester Magnum and soon discovered all was not well. Cartridges would not feed properly from the magazine. Alas, I’d wanted a 338 Winchester Magnum anyway (read Jim Carmichaels fault) so procures a Gaillard barrel and sent the rifle off to be fixed by someone who surely knew more about rifles than the over paid assembly line worker that put it together in the first place. Boy was I wrong and the rifle came back feeding no better and quite possible worse than before.



Back to the drawing board I went and ended up giving D’Arcy Echols a call. Anyone that knows of D’Arcy knows that he is world renown. I didn’t quite appreciate the fact when I first spoke with him but I visited his shop in Millville Utah and came to understand what true rifle building and craftsmanship were all about. He is a graduate from the Colorado school of trades and an apprentice under the hands of Jerry Fisher, Jack Belk, and Tom Burgess. Those who know these names know that these men represent some of the finest and most talented stock maker and metal smiths in the entire world. Unfortunately such a resume puts rifles built by Echols out of my financial reach.

Meeting D’Arcy ramped up that bit of a gun building/assembling/cobbling frenzy and it has lasted for the better part of a decade. Most rifles I’ve put together have been based on the Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70 and have had various stocks, barrels, bottom metal, scope mounts etc. etc. Some have received extensive modification including altering actions for custom scope mounts, custom magazine boxes, custom triggers……….. again etc. etc. Some very nice rifles came out of all this and one was even featured on a web site of a manufacturer of well known firearms accessories. Over that time I’ve formed some very strong opinions about things including barrel’s and their contour, stocks, receivers, triggers, scope mounts, scopes, barrel length and the list goes on.



Cartridge selection is always part of the building process and throughout that time I’ve had multiples and singles of the 223’s, 22-250’s, 243’s, 260’s. 7MM-08’s, .308’s, 270’s, 280’s, 280 AI’s, 30-06’s, 300’s, 338’s, and 375’s. In the process of all this I’ve become mildly adept at tweaking feeding issues, triggers, and performing bedding jobs. In addition to those cartridges mentioned I’ve worked with friends and family on more of the above and the WSM family of cartridges as well.



I’ve taken what I can surmise is dozens of head of various game animals with these cartridges using various bullets (I’m a bit of a bullet junkie) and as such have come to some very definitive conclusion. I have never ever wanted more gun in my hands, it is tough to tell what one is shooting given game reaction to a hit, and I’d wager the farm that any bystander witnessing the taking of said game couldn’t tell what cartridge did the dirty work. Game reaction to being struck by a bullet is so diverse that the more I see, the less I know.

Anymore I build rifles that will perform and function flawlessly with form following function though never ignored. Stuff whatever cartridge will fit and given a current inventory of powder and bullets what will make the most economical sense. Bullet selection also weighs heavily into the decision. Cartridges based on the grand old 30-06 seem to be easy on the shoulder, work well in the feeding department, and don’t seem to fussy to load for. If you prefer a short action then look hard at the .308 family of cases. Give me something that will launch a good bullet in excess of 2700 fps and the odds tip strongly in my favour.



I’ve come to discover that bullet drop is negated by known distance. On a calm day with a rangfinder and know trajectory with all day and no pressure even the newest of shooters can hit pay dirt. Quite likely out past 500 yds. When the wind is present all bets are off. In hunting situations where one shot is all you can get it does not matter if one bullet drifts less than another. Under read the wind and you miss left. Over read it and you miss right. Or vice a versa. A bullet that drifts less may help when wind is stronger than suspected and one subject to more drift may fluke a hit if a lighter breeze than figured is encountered. For most of us it’s palm reading at best.

So the next time that gun Jocky hands you the newest and greatest magnum across the counter tell him thank you very much. Or, tell him to stick it in his bent ear and hand you something that will hurt you less. It won’t much matter on just about any hunting situation under any hunting circumstance on this continent.

[KegRiver]

Now that is a well written well thought out work from a master.

Thank you sir for your input.

I don't call many people sir. I figure a fellow has to earn that title.

[twofifty]

thanks - good post.

[ecellitti]

That was a good read! I have read somthing similar to that but it was based on the
30-06. I will find it tomorrow and post it on here. Once again, that was a good post!

[super7mag]

That was a good read Chuck, I bet you still have a soft spot for a savage 99. It seems like a first rifle sticks with you overtime.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by super7mag

That was a good read Chuck, I bet you still have a soft spot for a savage 99. It seems like a first rifle sticks with you overtime.

Funny thing is I sold it in a stupor but have thankfully bought it back.

[GRUNTCALL]

Thanks, very interesting read, Magnum Laude.

"Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" Ecclesiastes 3:22

[rugatika]

Great piece Chuck...should be in a magazine. I don't have very much rifle hunting experience, but I have done a lot of reading and I would say I am inclined to agree with you.

[7mmremmag]

Wow that was well written. Thank you for that Chuck. Those are some dandy trophies ya got there.
I dont suppose youd like to build me a Left hand Coyote/wolf gun would ya?

[duceman]

interesting and refreshing read chuck. obviously variety is the 'spice' of life, but at the end of the day, what one bullet or cartridge will or won't do really doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
a well placed shot is a well placed shot.
i shot a 243 in an old parker hale my dad gave me when i was 15. thanks to you, it now sports a 280ai tube, and has 4 animals under its clip now, to add to the dozens in the previous 20 years and 3 barrels.
one day my 243 wasn't big enough, according my new vast amount of experience and hunting buddies.
out here on the bald azz prairie, whitetail hunting is a little different than the bush. most of the standing deer i shot at were missed until they ran, then dropped on the second shot. same with the yotes.
i quite like the 280 and 280ai, but i've learned that a shot in the deer's azz results in 30lbs of coyote bait with both the 243 and the 280.
i've never had a bullet that didn't do its thing, from the cheapest speer soft points to accubonds. one sure looks a lot 'cooler' in the ammo box though.
i enjoy the queries on here about what gun to buy a youth or the wife, one's too small, one's too big, yada yada yada.
i was elated to read stinky coyote's post on the 13 year old that got his first deer with a gun way too small to do the job according to most. it's obvious what a little practice and good advice can make you capable of. i've had a lot of guys come to shoot at my place that i'm glad i don't hunt with. not that there bad people, they just expect way more of themselves and their gear than is possible with no practice time.
at the end of the day guys, buy or build what tickles your fancy at the time, but if you don't parictice, no matter how shiny or expensive it is, it won't make a hunter or shooter out of you, lee.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by chuck

I just always assumed that it was life experience that had made Chuck so grumpy. But look at that face! Nature vs. Nurture..... I think we have solved that debate!

Ha!

Seriously though Chuck, your OP was great, and a damn fine read. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words. I wish more posts on AO were of this quality, instead of the too common drivel.

If you are feeling up to it, how about a post on your considerations in putting together a rifle? Advantages and disadvantages of the various stocks, bottom metal, triggers, action modifications, etc. that you have tried over the years.

I think some people have a deep seated need for their opinions/experiences to be validated, and will argue endlessly until you agree with them, thus stroking their ego. Then, there are others that are willing to share their knowledge who do not give a rat's ass if someone thinks they are wrong, and often they come across as arrogant, belligerent or downright crusty!

FWIW, I got got used to your crusty nature a long time ago.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I just always assumed that it was life experience that had made Chuck so grumpy. But look at that face! Nature vs. Nurture..... I think we have solved that debate!

Ha!

Seriously though Chuck, your OP was great, and a damn fine read. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words. I wish more posts on AO were of this quality, instead of the too common drivel.

If you are feeling up to it, how about a post on your considerations in putting together a rifle? Advantages and disadvantages of the various stocks, bottom metal, triggers, action modifications, etc. that you have tried over the years.

I think some people have a deep seated need for their opinions/experiences to be validated, and will argue endlessly until you agree with them, thus stroking their ego. Then, there are others that are willing to share their knowledge who do not give a rat's ass if someone thinks they are wrong, and often they come across as arrogant, belligerent or downright crusty!

FWIW, I got got used to your crusty nature a long time ago.

U kiddin ..RIGHT ???

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Pines

U kiddin ..RIGHT ???

About which part? Chuck being grumpy from birth? I think I proved my case on that one...

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

About which part? Chuck being grumpy from birth? I think I proved my case on that one...

YAAAA u did ..is this a birth ^^%$## and by the way do you own a 30-06

[Pudelpointer]

Sorry, no 30-06 in the safe. Never have hunted with one. Having said that, if I had to, I would feel more then confident in shooting ANYTHING that walks ANYWHERE with one; good bullet selections would be welcomed but not required.

[elkhunter11]

About which part? Chuck being grumpy from birth? I think I proved my case on that one...

Chuck may be a little grumpy from time time,but unlike many people on these forums,he speaks from actual experience.He has put in the time,killed many head of game,and learned by doing things,rather than by reading about them.I may not always agree with Chuck,but I still respect him because of that experience.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Chuck may be a little grumpy from time time,but unlike many people on these forums,he speaks from actual experience.He has put in the time,killed many head of game,and learned by doing things,rather than by reading about them.I may not always agree with Chuck,but I still respect him because of that experience.

ELK ..I will say for a 34 yr old he,s being a little over the top as in BS and I don't need pics to proof a point ...MOOT not so much any more and I don't need an education from CALGY

[Pines]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Chuck may be a little grumpy from time time,but unlike many people on these forums,he speaks from actual experience.He has put in the time,killed many head of game,and learned by doing things,rather than by reading about them.I may not always agree with Chuck,but I still respect him because of that experience.

Grumpy Chucky..ru kidddin me such an true blue joke ??? what can I say ..I wanna say that Chuck is not a hero and he will not promote a new rifle

[leo]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Chuck may be a little grumpy from time time,but unlike many people on these forums,he speaks from actual experience.He has put in the time,killed many head of game,and learned by doing things,rather than by reading about them.I may not always agree with Chuck,but I still respect him because of that experience.

Well said ELK. We all as individuals have a "go to rifle" and or caliber, Chucks is not my my idea of perfect but it seems to work for him and I'm sure countless others. Mine is 300 Weatherby, although I have never owned a weatherby rifle. I have shot a 300 Mag for close to 25 years and had spectacular success with proper bullets and bullet placement. I however have many other magnum rifles in my arsenal . Why? because as Townsend Whelan said "only accurate rifles are interesting" Or something along that line. Mine are all accurate. I may not shoot them much but a sub MOA rifle is hard to part with (for me). I have also owned and still do own a few non magnum mid bores, they all serve a purpose or will some day, especially as arthritis tells me magnums are not as much fun to shoot anymore. Do I think cartridge choice is moot? At this point in life NO.

[lclund1946]

Great post Chuck.

Like Keg "Old Betsy", to me, is the 30-30 & 303. My fathers favorite expression was, "there's nothing like a well placed shot". He usually uttered this after an unbelievable shot with the old long barrel 30-30. I believe picking off a coyote at 400 yards with an old peep sighted 303 was followed by that expression. Killing a moose at 600 yards with open sights, on an old 30-06, probably prompted the same saying. My lesson learned was that caliber selection is surely moot if you can't place a bullet in the right spot.

For the last 45 years a 270 Win and Various 7mm-08 rifles have killed most of the deer, moose and elk that I have shot as well as a number of antelope, ruffies, gophers, coyotes, muskrats and beaver. A few deer, moose, elk, antelope and gophers were taken between 300 and 600 yards with both calibers.

I just recently developed my own 6.5 EXTREME wildcat and built a long range rifle capable of 600-900 yard shots. Unfortunately health issues forced me to give up big game hunting so I sold it to a very happy young fellow. He hasn't reported shooting his deer but did manage to hit a 3 1/2"X 3 1/2" gong at 960 yards that has eluded many aspiring long range shooters.

Recently I have concentrated my efforts on long range gopher shooting. Down to my mobility scooter but have the advantage of my 20 EXTREME that is regularly putting 40 grain V-Max bullets, launched at 3635fps with 22.1 grains of powder, into 1/3" groups at 300 yards. I know that a 222, 223, 204 Ruger and a 22-250 will do the job but there is something about a well designed, efficient cartridge that makes my day.

I agree with your choice of calibers and cartridges for big game hunting and agree that they are adequate for "normal" big game hunting as we know it here in Alberta. I do, however, agree with the other **** disturbers that cartridge and bullet selection for large bears, Long Range Big Game Hunting and varmint shooting are not totally moot.

Again. A great post and just ignore the negative comments. I have learned that there are those who love to agree to disagree and that there are those who choose not to learn from others experiences. That is their loss.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I agree with your choice of calibers and cartridges for big game hunting and agree that they are adequate for "normal" big game hunting as we know it here in Alberta. I do, however, agree with the other **** disturbers that cartridge and bullet selection for large bears, Long Range Big Game Hunting and varmint shooting are not totally moot.

good summary

A quote from the OP then...

In hunting situations where one shot is all you can get it does not matter if one bullet drifts less than another. Under read the wind and you miss left. Over read it and you miss right. Or vice a versa. A bullet that drifts less may help when wind is stronger than suspected and one subject to more drift may fluke a hit if a lighter breeze than figured is encountered. For most of us it’s palm reading at best.

open to so much interpretation, 'hunting situations'? i guess there are many 'hunting situations' that many guys wouldn't even consider 'hunting situations' lol...hey, know your limits right, the archery guys know that, the 30-30 guys know that, the chuck knows that within his, the long range shooters know that etc. etc. if its talking to newbies all the time then of course its great advice....title the thread, 'hey new guys looking for first rifle, here is my advice', but you addressed an open forum with this 'moot' shizzo lol

next....

So the next time that gun Jocky hands you the newest and greatest magnum across the counter tell him thank you very much.

and to my point, rookies may not know what they want, your advice is excellent advice to people starting out no doubt, its the kind of advice that got me a .270, it turned out that my level of preparation goes much higher and in tune with whats currently available and not long after i moved up to a magnum due to necessity, i could not forsee the future so no biggie, was a good cartridge that i just out grew....like many out grow .243's and other popular 'starter' cartridges, i just out grew a normal one and tons of people do...so cartridge selection is not moot

now that is done....mk2750...hilarious postings, didn't see the original but the quoted one, some fun reading all around....i'll resemble the ++++disturbers statement, other great posts too(arn, narn etc.), all good fun