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10-28-2021, 12:04 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,032
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Gun safety 101:
"Never 'point' any firearm at anything you don't intend to shoot"
Alec:
"Here, hold my Corona & watch me pull the trigger"
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10-28-2021, 12:07 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far Enough From The City, AB
Posts: 1,573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM
Agreed, except, what if there were already comprehensive, clear and concise safety protocols in place already?
Based on what I am seeing/reading, it seems there already are extensive safety requirements in place and they seem to be rock solid.
So ..... just like a job site that has these regulations in place, at some point it can come down to the worker (or here, usually, the armorer or shooter) (in this case the asst, director as well) willfully, negligently disregarding these regulations and safety protocols - in which case they are responsible, liable, negligent and, ultimately at fault.
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^This^!!
Everything about this incident tells me that this production was run to get it done as fast as possible, as cheap as possible and with absolutely no delays(even if that meant cutting corners on safety). I don't think it would have mattered what protocols were in place when the people managing the production have this mindset.
The producers and Baldwin himself drove this culture on the set and didn't back down on it even after earlier incidents/near misses and crew members walking off the set.
All of the producers/armourer/Baldwin are 100% accountable for setting the stage for this incident to happen by foregoing safety and protocols for the almighty dollar IMO......
Condolences to the family and friends of the victim......
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"Better To Be Judged By 12, Then Buried By Six"
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10-28-2021, 12:09 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,419
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Lots of people think jail time won’t happen because he’s a celebrity. Martha Stewart went to jail. More recently two actresses (Lori Loughlin & Felicity so-and-so) had some jail time regarding the college admissions cheating/fraud they undertook for their kids. If they got jail for that kind of thing, Baldwin had better see the inside of a cell for the homicide he committed, even if he’s really, really sorry and didn’t mean it. I have no doubt he didn’t mean it, but his criminal negligence must be answered for and a precedent must be set/maintained
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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10-28-2021, 08:05 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,922
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He should have quit making bad movies and retired years ago.
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10-28-2021, 08:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,717
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He won’t go to jail. Not because he is an actor. I put $50 on that bet.
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10-28-2021, 09:14 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette
You have never seen a gun shot from an actor? They shoot towards the camera.
Think about it
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This has me thinking the most. The person who was shot was comfortable enough with the safety requirements to stand in front of the gun and be “shot at”. clearly there was enough safety on the set to cause complacency. I’m gunna say the terrible word that this was an accident. I hope there’s some actual investigation and charges to try and make sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen again. Unfortunately it probably will.
I will say the response is pretty polar opposite from when that cop accidentally used her handgun instead of her taser. All the sudden everyone is the patron saint of firearm safety 😂
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I seem to really be rather long winded.
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10-28-2021, 11:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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We should just do away with investigations, courts, judges and all that other stuff. Its just too much delay. Who the fudge wants to wait that long. We got the reliable news that can relay the facts and then BOOM gottcha!!
Extraordinay how many AO members were there to see it go down and thank god they were so we know who to.blame.
Personally i think it was Cabertosser. My wifes friends brother saw him do it. He switched the guns.
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10-29-2021, 09:08 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
We should just do away with investigations, courts, judges and all that other stuff. Its just too much delay. Who the fudge wants to wait that long. We got the reliable news that can relay the facts and then BOOM gottcha!!
Extraordinay how many AO members were there to see it go down and thank god they were so we know who to.blame.
Personally i think it was Cabertosser. My wifes friends brother saw him do it. He switched the guns.
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Wasn't Caber. He's been on assignment for dance instructions on Magic Mike 4.
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10-29-2021, 09:23 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Water Valley
Posts: 462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
We should just do away with investigations, courts, judges and all that other stuff. Its just too much delay. Who the fudge wants to wait that long. We got the reliable news that can relay the facts and then BOOM gottcha!!
Extraordinay how many AO members were there to see it go down and thank god they were so we know who to.blame.
Personally i think it was Cabertosser. My wifes friends brother saw him do it. He switched the guns.
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best post of thread
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10-29-2021, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
We should just do away with investigations, courts, judges and all that other stuff. Its just too much delay. Who the fudge wants to wait that long. We got the reliable news that can relay the facts and then BOOM gottcha!!
Extraordinay how many AO members were there to see it go down and thank god they were so we know who to.blame.
Personally i think it was Cabertosser. My wifes friends brother saw him do it. He switched the guns.
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There is one thing that we can be certain of, if the proper safety procedures were followed, the armorer would have checked the firearm in front of everyone ,before Baldwin took possession, and Baldwin would not have been handed a firearm with live rounds, and nobody would have been killed. How the live rounds ended up in the firearm , would not have changed that.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-29-2021, 09:35 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishnguy
He won’t go to jail. Not because he is an actor. I put $50 on that bet.
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If they can't prove criminal intent nobody will go to jail, OSHA penalties aren't the same as Canada. There will be huge fines and lawsuits that will go on for years, the movie Rust will never be finished costing investor's millions.
OSHA's maximum penalties for serious and other-than-serious violations will increase from $13,494 per violation to $13,653 per violation. The maximum penalty for willful or repeated violations will increase from $134,937 per violation to $136,532 per violation.
https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/trade/01132021
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Si vis pacem, para bellum
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10-29-2021, 09:38 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
We should just do away with investigations, courts, judges and all that other stuff. Its just too much delay. Who the fudge wants to wait that long. We got the reliable news that can relay the facts and then BOOM gottcha!!
Extraordinay how many AO members were there to see it go down and thank god they were so we know who to.blame.
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In what scenario does either the armorer, director or shooter not bear ANY responsibility?
I'm sorry - I disagree. All I'm saying is someone was to blame here. A gun does not kill people. People kill people.
There are absolutely NO SCENARIOS based on the safety protocols that are defined in the industry where this could have happened unless there was negligence.
NONE.
Someone (or a number of people) are ABSOLUTELY is to blame here.
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10-29-2021, 10:13 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Living On A Lake
Posts: 534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM
In what scenario does either the armorer, director or shooter not bear ANY responsibility?
I'm sorry - I disagree. All I'm saying is someone was to blame here. A gun does not kill people. People kill people.
There are absolutely NO SCENARIOS based on the safety protocols that are defined in the industry where this could have happened unless there was negligence.
NONE.
Someone (or a number of people) are ABSOLUTELY is to blame here.
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The law does not apply to either Hollywood or Democrats, it only applies to the common man or Conservatives, don't you know that by now? 
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10-29-2021, 07:49 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the woods
Posts: 8,923
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Ha!
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10-30-2021, 12:55 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lloydminster Alberta
Posts: 139
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I would like to see Baldwin swinging from the gallows..... I know it will never happen.
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10-30-2021, 06:02 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canmore
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According to CBC, Baldwin didn't shoot anybody - it was his gun that shot them.
"Investigators believe Baldwin's gun fired a single live round that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza."
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The world is changed by your action, not by your opinion.
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10-30-2021, 07:09 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 11,858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper
According to CBC, Baldwin didn't shoot anybody - it was his gun that shot them.
"Investigators believe Baldwin's gun fired a single live round that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza."
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Is anyone surprised CBC would post such dribble and look for another opportunity to demonize guns and gun ownership.
And you and I both pay CBC through our tax dollars - what a joke they are.
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10-30-2021, 10:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetboat175
I would like to see Baldwin swinging from the gallows..... I know it will never happen.
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Why? (First part only)
Did he murder your family?
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10-30-2021, 10:46 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM
Is anyone surprised CBC would post such dribble and look for another opportunity to demonize guns and gun ownership.
And you and I both pay CBC through our tax dollars - what a joke they are.
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And its hysterical gun owners like you they are successfully pushing the buttons of.
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10-30-2021, 10:55 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZM
In what scenario does either the armorer, director or shooter not bear ANY responsibility?
I'm sorry - I disagree. All I'm saying is someone was to blame here. A gun does not kill people. People kill people.
There are absolutely NO SCENARIOS based on the safety protocols that are defined in the industry where this could have happened unless there was negligence.
NONE.
Someone (or a number of people) are ABSOLUTELY is to blame here.
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ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! But why stop at the director. Lets get the film production company execs too. They should have known not to hire that director, who relied on that production manager, who hired that safety manager, who hired an amorer.. They are all guilty!!!!
But lets get the caterers too. If it hadnt been for the egg salad croissionts...
Last edited by nelsonob1; 10-30-2021 at 11:06 PM.
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10-31-2021, 12:01 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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Will make a good movie plot!
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I fish, therefore I am.
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10-31-2021, 06:59 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
And its hysterical gun owners like you they are successfully pushing the buttons of.
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So it's hysterical to want someone that took a life to be held accountable?
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-31-2021, 10:13 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,102
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This is an awful tragedy and I believe there will be many lawsuits, but I don't think Baldwin is going to get charged with anything criminally.
When I was in Fort McMurray there was a fight outside the Newfie Club where an individual died. It was a "one punch wonder" where the victim was punched, fell, hit his head, and died. The individual eventually charge and convicted of manslaughter had no criminal record and really could be anyone of us.
In this situation he was convicted of manslaughter because he completed the "actus reus" (action) of the crime, even though there was no "mens rea" (intention) to kill. Now for a person to be convicted on "actus reus" alone, the action, as in the case of the Newfie Club, "the punch", must also be a criminal offence that has a known potential to cause serious injury. This is also why we have impaired driving causing death (drunk driving manslaughter).
The problem with the Baldwin situation is that there is no "actus rea" on the part of Baldwin, because pointing a prop gun on a movie set at another person and pulling the trigger, in itself is not a criminal offense and is not normally known to have the potential to cause serious injury. If this was the case most of Hollywood be in jail for the American offense of reckless endangerment.
If there was anyone charge with criminal negligence, possibly it could be the armorer that prepared the firearm, but even that would be a stretch.
I am sure the US state have there individual labor codes, so Baldwin could be named in a charge as part of the employer group. This would be no different than the RCMP as an organization being charged under the Canadian Labor Code in regards to the Moncton Shootings for not providing adequate equipment and training. And the big reason for that finding of guilt was that the RCMP after Mayerthorpe was advised by the Inquiry that training and equipment was needed.
So the only way I see him criminally charge is if the investigation reveals that this was a planned murder, which could happen, but I doubt it. But it is Hollywood so maybe that what will end up happening.
Last edited by brendan's dad; 10-31-2021 at 10:29 AM.
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10-31-2021, 11:09 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
Why? (First part only)
Did he murder your family?
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Some folks can't see beyond their first mandate. He wasn't a card carrying NRA member and Trump fan therefore....
It was an accident that sadly yes, could have been prevented, but the only trace of Baldwin's blood on that gun is if he hired the armourer in which case he'll face financial ramifications being we're talking about Litigation Land.
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You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by the speed of light squared... ...then you energy.
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10-31-2021, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 270person
Some folks can't see beyond their first mandate. He wasn't a card carrying NRA member and Trump fan therefore....
It was an accident that sadly yes, could have been prevented, but the only trace of Baldwin's blood on that gun is if he hired the armourer in which case he'll face financial ramifications being we're talking about Litigation Land.
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The firearms safety protocol required the firearm to be inspected and verified safe by the armorer, in front of the cast/crew, before the actor or stunt person took possession of the firearm, to use to reherse or shoot the scene. Baldwin accepted the firearm without that happening, which means that he didn't follow the protocol. Secondly, Baldwin was the producer, the person in charge, and he knowingly allowed the violation of the safety protocol to occur. Therefore Baldwin could be held liable in both cases. If Baldwin hired the armorer, that would be the third reason he could be held liable.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-31-2021, 04:31 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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Funny, here and MSM immediately said accidentally killed her. As soon as it happened. No investigation, no question, I wonder what the headlines would have been if it was Mel Gibson on the other end of that gun. Shalom...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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NEVER FORGET:
"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers."
— Allan Rock, Canada's Minister of Justice
Maclean's "Taking aim on guns", 1994 April 25, Vol.107 Issue 17, page 12.
"... protection of life is NOT a legitimate use for a firearm in this country sir! Not! That is expressly ruled out!".
— Justice Minister Allan Rock
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10-31-2021, 10:03 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanCretien
Funny, here and MSM immediately said accidentally killed her. As soon as it happened. No investigation, no question, I wonder what the headlines would have been if it was Mel Gibson on the other end of that gun. Shalom...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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On another forum someone made the suggestion that if it was Tom Selleck who did it, we as the gun community would not be criticizing him. This is true, but not for the reason they suggested. This is because Tom Selleck, being a gun guy, would habitually check his own firearm and the incident wouldn't have happened in the first place. An experienced and professional actor who is also an experienced and professional gun aficionado following gun safety and nothing happening, go figure.... 
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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11-01-2021, 05:27 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton/San Tan Valley,Arizona
Posts: 801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
On another forum someone made the suggestion that if it was Tom Selleck who did it, we as the gun community would not be criticizing him. This is true, but not for the reason they suggested. This is because Tom Selleck, being a gun guy, would habitually check his own firearm and the incident wouldn't have happened in the first place. An experienced and professional actor who is also an experienced and professional gun aficionado following gun safety and nothing happening, go figure.... |
Agree 100%
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11-01-2021, 06:04 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
On another forum someone made the suggestion that if it was Tom Selleck who did it, we as the gun community would not be criticizing him. This is true, but not for the reason they suggested. This is because Tom Selleck, being a gun guy, would habitually check his own firearm and the incident wouldn't have happened in the first place. An experienced and professional actor who is also an experienced and professional gun aficionado following gun safety and nothing happening, go figure.... |
You would have to ask Tom Selleck but what I have gathered from other posts on this thread is that the last thing the armorer wants is having the talent trying to examine the prop. I know nothing about this first hand but there is lots here to suggest that's correct. There is no way to know if the actor knows anything about firearms so there are supposed to be lots of safety protocols to be sure that doesn't matter.
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11-01-2021, 06:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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The actor is not required to be a firearms expert , and with the exception of the armorer, neither is any other member of the crew or cast, or the producer. What they are all required to do , is to follow the safety protocols concerning the use of firearms on the set. If they all follow the safety protocols, nobody gets hurt.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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