Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

And besides, it was just one harmless old man who got killed by the police anyway, right Phil? Mistakes happen, no point making a big deal about it.

Just saying.

Again you like the rest of us no nothing of what took place so harmless is pure speculation as with the rest of this thread.

[glen moa]

They went to arrest and he got killed.
They failed.
Pretty simple.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

According to this, SIRT does make recommendations as to whether charges should result.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7654292/r...ing-fire-hall/

As to whether SIRT chooses to interpret the evidence in favor of the police or not, the fact that it is basically police (present or past) investigating police and making recommendations as to whether to charge officers, the public is not convinced that their findings and recommendations are unbiased. And with the trust in the police so badly eroded that people are protesting against the police, and calling for them to be defunded, the situation is obviously only getting worse. Each and every incident, from the Vancouver airport incident, to High River, to the firehall shooting, and now the shooting of the gunsmith , just erodes the public trust in the police further.

I was one of those that was solidly on the side of LE. not anymore and it is because of those incidents where officers have caused physical harm and death to people as well as property crime. one of the officers involved in the Robert Dziekanski incident later went on to kill a motorcycle rider while most likely impaired. rather than staying with the rider and trying to help him, he walked home and consumed more alcohol and then returned to the scene. also the Sonny Yatim incident in Toronto where Sonny was holding a knife but not in a threatening position was shot 8 times and then tased after the shooting stopped. the officer that killed Sammy was charged with attempted murder. police officers are now being trained to be nothing more than an armed extension of the government indoctrinated to follow the letter of the law. my take on the Kotanko shooting...he was shot because he was holding a gun. which, as a gunsmith was highly likely. it didn't matter to the officer whether it was only a part of a gun or if it was unloaded or not. officers must follow the letter of the law. older officers that came from a rural background many years ago could be trusted with using their discretion in these situations but those days are gone.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

According to this, SIRT does make recommendations as to whether charges should result.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7654292/r...ing-fire-hall/

As to whether SIRT chooses to interpret the evidence in favor of the police or not, the fact that it is basically police (present or past) investigating police and making recommendations as to whether to charge officers, the public is not convinced that their findings and recommendations are unbiased. And with the trust in the police so badly eroded that people are protesting against the police, and calling for them to be defunded, the situation is obviously only getting worse. Each and every incident, from the Vancouver airport incident, to High River, to the firehall shooting, and now the shooting of the gunsmith , just erodes the public trust in the police further.

I said the "investigators" in ASIRT (police officers and normally retired police officers) do not make charge recommendations.

I will say it again, the case file when completed, is reviewed by a lawyer who applies the law and current case law to determine a likelihood of conviction and whether charges will be laid.

https://www.alberta.ca/about-asirt.aspx

It is curious that the shooting in Ontario has already further eroded your trust in the police when the investigation is not even complete and there has been no report released.

Are you sure you are not just applying a previous bias to the current situation? Maybe the same kind of bias that you are so strongly against.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I said the "investigators" in ASIRT (police officers and normally retired police officers) do not make charge recommendations.

I will say it again, the case file when completed, is reviewed by a lawyer who applies the law and current case law to determine a likelihood of conviction and whether charges will be laid.

https://www.alberta.ca/about-asirt.aspx

It is curious that the shooting in Ontario has already further eroded your trust in the police when the investigation is not even complete and there has been no report released.

Are you sure you are not just applying a previous bias to the current situation? Maybe the same kind of bias that you are so strongly against.

Been trying, in vain, to explain this...

Ain't working...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I said the "investigators" in ASIRT (police officers and normally retired police officers) do not make charge recommendations.

I will say it again, the case file when completed, is reviewed by a lawyer who applies the law and current case law to determine a likelihood of conviction and whether charges will be laid.

https://www.alberta.ca/about-asirt.aspx

It is curious that the shooting in Ontario has already further eroded your trust in the police when the investigation is not even complete and there has been no report released.

Are you sure you are not just applying a previous bias to the current situation? Maybe the same kind of bias that you are so strongly against.

The fact that no details of the actual shooting of the 70 year old have been released does in itself make a person suspicious. The fact that he did work for the local police, makes me wonder if they could have come up with a way to apprehend him without resorting to shooting him. And if the reasoning for not having the local police take him into custody, and in fact not even notifying them, that the raid was happening, until immediately before the raid is that they might have tipped him off, and ruined the case against him, then can the local police be trusted? No matter how you look at it, something doesn't seem right.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The fact that no details of the actual shooting of the 70 year old have been released does in itself make a person suspicious. The fact that he did work for the local police, makes me wonder if they could have come up with a way to apprehend him without resorting to shooting him. And if the reasoning for not having the local police take him into custody, and in fact not even notifying them, that the raid was happening, until immediately before the raid is that they might have tipped him off, and ruined the case against him, then can the local police be trusted? No matter how you look at it, something doesn't seem right.

Because no information will be released until the investigation is over. That is the way it is, nothing suspicious about it.

And if charges are laid, the Courts will decide the outcome.

No sense speculating...and patience is a virtue...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Because no information will be released until the investigation is over. That is the way it is, nothing suspicious about it.

And if charges are laid, the Courts will decide the outcome.

No sense speculating...and patience is a virtue...

And the longer it takes, the more people forget that it ever happened. How many seconds do you suppose elapsed from the time the police entered the room, and the shots were fired? How many months/years should it take to determine what actually happened in that room, in those seconds? Or are they using the time to try and come up with something to justify taking a 70 year old man's life in a no knock raid. And convincing the public that shooting the 70 year old in a no knock raid won't be easy.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And the longer it takes, the more people forget that it ever happened. How many seconds do you suppose elapsed from the time the police entered the room, and the shots were fired? How many months/years should it take to determine what actually happened in that room, in those seconds? Or are they using the time to try and come up with something to justify taking a 70 year old man's life in a no knock raid. And convincing the public that shooting the 70 year old in a no knock raid won't be easy.

the only people who will forget are those that this never really mattered to other than to stir the pot.

[Redhorse Ranch]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Because no information will be released until the investigation is over. That is the way it is, nothing suspicious about it.

And if charges are laid, the Courts will decide the outcome.

No sense speculating...and patience is a virtue...

If:
A- The public is made suspicious by the withholding of information

And:
B- System or framework does not allow for the timely release of information

Then:
C- The public is not at fault for its' growing mistrust

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Redhorse Ranch

If:
A- The public is made suspicious by the withholding of information

And:
B- System or framework does not allow for the timely release of information

Then:
C- The public is not at fault for its' growing mistrust

bs the public is at fault (not all just the 1 percenters) for NOT understanding the process at hand, someone was killed so let it play out properly.

the information will be made once all is in order this is not magnum PI where you get everything wrapped up in 60 minutes....jeepers people pull your heads out of your butts...no app or phone or second or third life in a game here as this is not an xbox or tv show

pot stirred

[sk270]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

bs the public is at fault (not all just the 1 percenters) for NOT understanding the process at hand, someone was killed so let it play out properly.

the information will be made once all is in order this is not magnum PI where you get everything wrapped up in 60 minutes....jeepers people pull your heads out of your butts...no app or phone or second or third life in a game here as this is not an xbox or tv show

pot stirred

Please explain the process so that I can perform the anatomical impossibility that you advise, keeping in mind the following.

The shooting at Oxford High School occurred on November 30 and the authorities have already released a great deal of information. Mr. Kotanko was shot on November 3 and the authorities have released no information. The only difference that I can see is that the latter shooter is a police officer.

This difference in transparency seems to be repeated again and again when Canadian law enforcement forces are compared to US agencies.

The RCMP are the premier law enforcement agency in Canada. They have the expertise and the public exposure. Any deficiencies reflect on other police services and public opinion about law enforcement generally. That's why the High River situation is still being quoted.

Am I wrong that a public outcry is the only reason there is a public inquiry into the mass shootings in Nova Scotia in April of 2020? Am I wrong that this inquiry has yet to release its report? Why doesn't the RCMP want to talk to the public about its use of Twitter instead of the emergency alert system?

Am I wrong that it took four years to produce an independent (non-RCMP) report on the handling of the Stanley/Boushie case? Is the process supposed to take that long?

Am I wrong that the RCMP were supposed to be wearing body cameras by now but are not doing so? Why are they dragging their feet?

There seems to be a huge difference in openness in the way these things are handled by the RCMP compared to US law enforcement. As I said in an earlier post, I would like to go back to trusting the RCMP and local forces by extension.

Explain why I am mistaken, please. Without rude physical references. Just the facts.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by Redhorse Ranch

If:
A- The public is made suspicious by the withholding of information



Then the "public" should get off there arses and be more educated about what can be released...and what cannot. Too many Karens floating around these days...

And:
B- System or framework does not allow for the timely release of information


Again, the system is the way it is. Too many will go out of their way to tell everyone how bad things are, without knowing Rules of Evidence, Voir Dires, release of information, etc. My suggestion...find out or simply shut up.


C- The public is not at fault for its' growing mistrust

Yes they are. Quit playing XBox in the basement, quit getting your information on social media, and educate yourself. By doing so, you would be surprised how things in the real world really work...and as before...

And this is "With all due respect" of course...

Oooops...some of my replies are in the yellow box, and last one ain't...sorry

[WolfmanAB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju-UtFveiNE&t=24s

[WV911]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

[/B]

Yes they are. Quit playing XBox in the basement, quit getting your information on social media, and educate yourself. By doing so, you would be surprised how things in the real world really work...and as before...

And this is "With all due respect" of course...

Oooops...some of my replies are in the yellow box, and last one ain't...sorry

i don't know how some of you have the patience to keep presenting factual info when you know you are just banging your head against the wall here.

I also don't know why I keep looking at this thread and the covid thread, I guess its like watching a train wreck, you just can't turn away

[Redhorse Ranch]

[QUOTE=WV911;4449744]i don't know how some of you have the patience to keep presenting factual info when you know you are just banging your head against the wall here.

I agree. Logic simply escapes some people.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by WV911

i don't know how some of you have the patience to keep presenting factual info when you know you are just banging your head against the wall here.

I also don't know why I keep looking at this thread and the covid thread, I guess its like watching a train wreck, you just can't turn away

X2

I think that the guys did a fantastic job of clearly and concisely explaining the system and how it works. I think that they should be commended for their diplomacy and self discipline as well.

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

[/B]

Yes they are. Quit playing XBox in the basement, quit getting your information on social media, and educate yourself. By doing so, you would be surprised how things in the real world really work...and as before...

And this is "With all due respect" of course...

Oooops...some of my replies are in the yellow box, and last one ain't...sorry

Look Phil, I'm 100% behind your insights, you have brought forth. See my bolded parts. How can we educate ourselves if the LEO's aren't forth coming with timely, pertinent information?
Previous posts, show examples on how cases in the USA, have been reported much faster. I realize, we are NOT in the USA and their protocol might be different

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Because no information will be released until the investigation is over. That is the way it is, nothing suspicious about it.

And if charges are laid, the Courts will decide the outcome.

No sense speculating...and patience is a virtue...

I think you miss the point made by many. It's the systemic and opaic approach that adds to our mistrust because time an time again BS hides behind those curtains. Either accept that and change or suck it up.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sk270

Please explain the process so that I can perform the anatomical impossibility that you advise, keeping in mind the following.

The shooting at Oxford High School occurred on November 30 and the authorities have already released a great deal of information. Mr. Kotanko was shot on November 3 and the authorities have released no information. The only difference that I can see is that the latter shooter is a police officer.

This difference in transparency seems to be repeated again and again when Canadian law enforcement forces are compared to US agencies.

The RCMP are the premier law enforcement agency in Canada. They have the expertise and the public exposure. Any deficiencies reflect on other police services and public opinion about law enforcement generally. That's why the High River situation is still being quoted.

Am I wrong that a public outcry is the only reason there is a public inquiry into the mass shootings in Nova Scotia in April of 2020? Am I wrong that this inquiry has yet to release its report? Why doesn't the RCMP want to talk to the public about its use of Twitter instead of the emergency alert system?

Am I wrong that it took four years to produce an independent (non-RCMP) report on the handling of the Stanley/Boushie case? Is the process supposed to take that long?

Am I wrong that the RCMP were supposed to be wearing body cameras by now but are not doing so? Why are they dragging their feet?

There seems to be a huge difference in openness in the way these things are handled by the RCMP compared to US law enforcement. As I said in an earlier post, I would like to go back to trusting the RCMP and local forces by extension.

Explain why I am mistaken, please. Without rude physical references. Just the facts.

Pardon the rude physical references and I could type all day but I believe if you read Phil’s posts that pretty much sums things up.

Everything takes time just not as quick as a some would like it.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Pardon the rude physical references and I could type all day but I believe if you read Phil’s posts that pretty much sums things up.

Everything takes time just not as quick as a some would like it.

I reread Phil's posts and others that I assume came from current or retired police officers.

Yes, I know how, approximately, our current system works. The point is that it no longer works well in the 21st century.

I don't intend the following to be a hijack. I think that the reputation and operation of the RCMP reflects on all police services because of their reputation and because they are involved in many high-profile cases.

Once, a few decades ago or so, the RCMP functioned as designed, a paramilitary police organization that covered all of Canada. Back then, a combination of competence and internal loyalty by the members preserved the RCMP's good reputation among the majority of Canadians. Then CSIS was created because that was no longer good enough. I am not aware of other major changes made in the basic organization unless you count dropping equine training. I might be wrong because I am basing this on conversations with members and relatives that were quite a while ago.

Since then, everything from the Commissioner's responses to accusations of racism down to members' allegations of assault and harassment by their own colleagues has led to increasing public distrust of the RCMP. Many people have suggested necessary reforms, including changing the emphasis from the ethos of loyalty to the internal hierarchy into one of service to the public.

The changing attitudes to the RCMP, the premier law enforcement agency in Canada, have carried over to other police services, enhanced by mistakes or the few "bad apples".

I think that most people do not think that it should take years to release reports on the various situations mentioned in this thread. The "rules" were made when correspondence was through the postal service and Zoom wasn't even a Mazda slogan.

In the shooting of Mr. Kotanko, for instance, the police could show the same kind of transparency that many big businesses have now adopted as the best way to deal with negative situations. At least tell the public why the Toronto police were not in contact with local police and what the warrant was for. I agree that there needs to be a careful investigation of the actual shooting, but why are these other things kept secret? Also, it should not take years to investigate these things.

In short, I have at least a vague idea about how things work in the real world. I just don't think it's adequate to deal with the concerns raised by what we know about the mistakes made in the past.

[58thecat]

I know mistakes were, are and will be made but adjustments are put into place to not repeat. This is no different to any other profession.
That being said information is released as seen fit not interfering with other investigations etc.
A lot more on the plate then what we think is going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dgl1948]

I think if a copy of the warrant was released it may answer a lot of questions. What was going on in his house that required a door being breached? Why could not the location be secured and have the individual surrender?

[glen moa]

Is his warrant part of a bigger investigation?
Have or will other people be arrested?

they were a complete failure in the arrest. Nice job.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I said the "investigators" in ASIRT (police officers and normally retired police officers) do not make charge recommendations.

I will say it again, the case file when completed, is reviewed by a lawyer who applies the law and current case law to determine a likelihood of conviction and whether charges will be laid.

https://www.alberta.ca/about-asirt.aspx

It is curious that the shooting in Ontario has already further eroded your trust in the police when the investigation is not even complete and there has been no report released.

Are you sure you are not just applying a previous bias to the current situation? Maybe the same kind of bias that you are so strongly against.

Does it take a bloody rocket scientist to figure out your colleagues pumped an old guy full of hole unnecessarily?

Why not just say, ”Damn, you guys may be right, there are lots of bad apples in the force, and this was just wrong and an innocent man paid with his life.”

I won’t hold my breath.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I know mistakes were, are and will be made but adjustments are put into place to not repeat. This is no different to any other profession.
That being said information is released as seen fit not interfering with other investigations etc.
A lot more on the plate then what we think is going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is not the same as any other profession. When cops get it wrong people die.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

Does it take a bloody rocket scientist to figure out your colleagues pumped an old guy full of hole unnecessarily?

Why not just say, ”Damn, you guys may be right, there are lots of bad apples in the force, and this was just wrong and an innocent man paid with his life.”

I won’t hold my breath.

Come on you don’t know that for sure….unless you got some good intel?

No one here knows exacts but yet some still push their assumptions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

It is not the same as any other profession. When cops get it wrong people die.

Ohhh boy.

Not true at all that if a mistake is made people die the same with other professions.
Mistakes can be made without people ending up in the morgue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[glen moa]

Nothing can change the fact.

They went to arrest and failed.

[C2C3PO]

Originally Posted by glen moa

They went to arrest and he got killed.
They failed.
Pretty simple.

Originally Posted by glen moa

Is his warrant part of a bigger investigation?
Have or will other people be arrested?

they were a complete failure in the arrest. Nice job.

Originally Posted by glen moa

Nothing can change the fact.

They went to arrest and failed.

Could you better clarify your position on this please?
Like so many other posts on this thread, I'm just not sure where some people stand on the issue and their feelings toward police......