Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[CaberTosser]

This tragedy sure begs for more details. It would be quite a regular thing for a gunsmith to be holding a gun, so that could be problematic when given the unusual circumstance of a no-knock tactical team entry. ‘Drop the weapon’ might be met with wanting to put it down gently being that it’s a costumers property, chances are it could even be partly disassembled and non-functional. There is also the aspect of shock that can have a person briefly freeze up when they’re still trying to process exactly what’s happening. The victims noted health issue would also have him slower to react, and even at be risk of scaring him into another cardiac episode had they not shot him first.

Why did TPS not notify local LE? (Investigation have a suspect in local LE so an outside agency was involved?)

Why the no-knock warrant? It’s not like the guy was a drug dealer with his inventory poised over the toilet to be flushed away immediately at the first sign of police. Can’t flush a firearm down the toilet. A regular, calm approach by a team of officers would certainly suffice for a 70 year old who regularly interacts with police professionally & co-operatively.

Usually I lean towards supporting LE, but they make mistakes too. This one does not look to be in their favor with what little is known so far. Toronto Police specifically not having a good rep so far as raiding senior citizen gun owners and seizing their firearm collections.

[Ken07AOVette]

Why does anyone here feel you need to know pertinent relevant information on why the warrant was served?

Are you a Crown Prosecutor or a high ranking RCMP Officer, do you sit on a chair that oversees Police action in some way or are you part of the shooting investigating team in Canada?

The people that know did for a reason, not everything is laid out for civilians prior to action so you can scrutinize their actions beforehand.

I am neutral in this other than to say there better be solid evidence of wrongdoing and solid immediate unpassable threat to Police Officers or civilians for something like this to go down. If there was no threat it is an inexcuseable unforgiveable mistake that better have grave consequences for the officers involved and whoever ordered the search.

But again, it is none of our business.

The internet makes people nosy. We feel some odd entitlement to know facts of things happening that do not affect us in any way, especially here a few thousand km away, and why, because we dont like cops? Because we are gun owners?

rant over, back to work for me.

[sns2]

Pretty sure they could have taken this man in / arrested him without shots needing to be fired. A senior who walks with a cane. Whatever happened to “Come Out With Your Hands UP!” From all I have read about him, he seems more like Ron Smith than he does a Hell’s Angel armourer. I’m even more sure that we will never know the full truth. The day and age where I trust media to report objectively, as opposed to being spin doctors is long gone. I also no longer trust police forces to issue the whole truth and nothing but the truth if there is any chance it portrays them in a negative light. Sadly, we are left with nothing other than speculation.

[glen moa]

Maybe a no knock warrant was the wrong way to try and arrest.
Why four shots fired from one cop? The other cops didn’t see a threat?
What’s a threat? Someone working on a bench with a gun?
Maybe the only thing that’s important is the level of threat just before the first shot was fired. They need to have a better tool for arresting then shooting and killing.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by glen moa

Maybe a no knock warrant was the wrong way to try and arrest.
Why four shots fired from one cop? The other cops didn’t see a threat?
What’s a threat? Someone working on a bench with a gun?
Maybe the only thing that’s important is the level of threat just before the first shot was fired. They need to have a better tool for arresting then shooting and killing.

Great post.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Why does anyone here feel you need to know pertinent relevant information on why the warrant was served?

Are you a Crown Prosecutor or a high ranking RCMP Officer, do you sit on a chair that oversees Police action in some way or are you part of the shooting investigating team in Canada?

The people that know did for a reason, not everything is laid out for civilians prior to action so you can scrutinize their actions beforehand.

I am neutral in this other than to say there better be solid evidence of wrongdoing and solid immediate unpassable threat to Police Officers or civilians for something like this to go down. If there was no threat it is an inexcuseable unforgiveable mistake that better have grave consequences for the officers involved and whoever ordered the search.

But again, it is none of our business.

The internet makes people nosy. We feel some odd entitlement to know facts of things happening that do not affect us in any way, especially here a few thousand km away, and why, because we dont like cops? Because we are gun owners?

rant over, back to work for me.

first you state that the police better have a good solid reason to serve a no knock warrant which led to the death of an individual, then in the next breath you state it is none of our business to know why the warrant was served. a corrupt government will cover up any wrongdoing by its agents, especially if they are pursuing an agenda. I guess High River isn't an issue for you either. being an agent of a corrupt government which enacts oppressive legislation doesn't justify excessive force. is it ethically or morally defensible? that needs to be open to public view and scrutiny.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by barsik

first you state that the police better have a good solid reason to serve a no knock warrant which led to the death of an individual, then in the next breath you state it is none of our business to know why the warrant was served. a corrupt government will cover up any wrongdoing by its agents, especially if they are pursuing an agenda. I guess High River isn't an issue for you either. being an agent of a corrupt government which enacts oppressive legislation doesn't justify excessive force. is it ethically or morally defensible? that needs to be open to public view and scrutiny.

Get your credentials, become a high ranking Judge or Politician and fill your boots. Then when you are privy to such sensitive information fill us in.

Or just keep lightly tapping your keyboard with your feet up on the footstool looking down on others as is so popular here with the armchair quarterbacks and online solicitors.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by sns2

Pretty sure they could have taken this man in / arrested him without shots needing to be fired. A senior who walks with a cane. Whatever happened to “Come Out With Your Hands UP!” From all I have read about him, he seems more like Ron Smith than he does a Hell’s Angel armourer. I’m even more sure that we will never know the full truth. The day and age where I trust media to report objectively, as opposed to being spin doctors is long gone. I also no longer trust police forces to issue the whole truth and nothing but the truth if there is any chance it portrays them in a negative light. Sadly, we are left with nothing other than speculation.

Please share with all how you are "pretty sure" about this. I myself can't wait.

You said you "read" about the victim and on the next breath, you say you no longer trust the media.

Have a great day...

PS: This incident has nothing to do with "High River".

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

PS: This incident has nothing to do with "High River".

Based on what I saw with my own eyes and the people I spoke to on the first day residents were allowed back in to town the Legend of the High River Gun Grab and actual events don't line up so well in some places.

If you consider this event in a similar context you can see how it's already spinning out of control. For all we know the police could have bad information that caused them to evaluate the situation poorly resulting in this tragedy. It seems more likely to me than the tactical team just deciding to kill somebody for giggles.

That's a problem that needs to be addressed, just like there were problems that needed to be addressed in the wake of High River. What all this running around like flappy bird does is make it easier for organizations to side step accountability because the real issues get lost in the noise. It's not simply a waste of time, it's counterproductive.

[Savage Bacon]

Maybe he was at his work bench with earplugs in. With a firearm in the vice and the cops yelling at him to drop his weapon.

Close to Halloween. Was he wearing his storm trooper costume?

[Cappy]

Very little info, lots of questions as there should be.

To clarify one thing that is being misinterpreted - TPS has "jurisdiction" anywhere in the province of Ontario as they are peace officers under the provincial police act. They are responsible for the area of Toronto however they can go anywhere and investigate under the authority of that Act. Most likely the investigation started in Toronto or because of the connection with the local force were asked to come in and investigate to remain an arms length away.

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Very little info, lots of questions as there should be.

To clarify one thing that is being misinterpreted - TPS has "jurisdiction" anywhere in the province of Ontario as they are peace officers under the provincial police act. They are responsible for the area of Toronto however they can go anywhere and investigate under the authority of that Act. Most likely the investigation started in Toronto or because of the connection with the local force were asked to come in and investigate to remain an arms length away.

Yes I think most are aware. Really the question is, the TPS rolled into an area that was the responsibility of the OPP, and failed to ask for there assistance, which has raised some eyebrows, as it should have!

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

Yes I think most are aware. Really the question is, the TPS rolled into an area that was the responsibility of the OPP, and failed to ask for there assistance, which has raised some eyebrows, as it should have!

I kinda skimmed the info and may not have seen this but
It’s a fact they rolled into the area and never let opp know about it?

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I kinda skimmed the info and may not have seen this but
It’s a fact they rolled into the area and never let opp know about it?

It is reported as a fact in the article I posted earlier, and again here:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...0-year-old-man

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

It is reported as a fact in the article I posted earlier, and again here:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...0-year-old-man

Well even if it’s all legal and everything for one organization to travel to another organizations duristiction, you’d still think they would so that no conflicts came up. Kinda strange in my eyes.

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I kinda skimmed the info and may not have seen this but
It’s a fact they rolled into the area and never let opp know about it?

Yea, you got a link below your reply. This is why I am scratching my head, why did the leave the OPP out of it? Seems weird!

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Please share with all how you are "pretty sure" about this. I myself can't wait.



You said you "read" about the victim and on the next breath, you say you no longer trust the media.



Have a great day...



PS: This incident has nothing to do with "High River".

I will let you figure it out. You always do have the option to block me. Your bruised ego needs care.

Sent from my SM-A705W using Tapatalk

[sns2]

Phil, if you want to carry over from the other thread, do so by pm. The discussion will be short, but we can have one. Right now you are just trolling for an argumen and to derail this thread.

Sent from my SM-A705W using Tapatalk

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Based on what I saw with my own eyes and the people I spoke to on the first day residents were allowed back in to town the Legend of the High River Gun Grab and actual events don't line up so well in some places.

If you consider this event in a similar context you can see how it's already spinning out of control. For all we know the police could have bad information that caused them to evaluate the situation poorly resulting in this tragedy. It seems more likely to me than the tactical team just deciding to kill somebody for giggles.

That's a problem that needs to be addressed, just like there were problems that needed to be addressed in the wake of High River. What all this running around like flappy bird does is make it easier for organizations to side step accountability because the real issues get lost in the noise. It's not simply a waste of time, it's counterproductive.

I hear you...and it is what it was in High River. back then..and I understand what you are saying,

But, this thread really cannot be compared to that...My opinion...

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by sns2

Phil, if you want to carry over from the other thread, do so by pm. The discussion will be short, but we can have one. Right now you are just trolling for an argumen and to derail this thread.

Sent from my SM-A705W using Tapatalk

No my friend.

Has nothing to do with previous threads, and I'm not trying to derail anything. Nor am I trolling...

It is obvious we share different opinions, which is fine by me.

Bet you if you and I sat down and had a couple of beers...we would probably get along just fine.

Typing stuff is not my "forte"...Been guilty of that and admitted that before.

Would I consider putting you on my "ignore" list? Of course not. Why? Because you do provide some great info to the general membership on other matters.

And at times...we agree to disagree...

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

No my friend.

Has nothing to do with previous threads, and I'm not trying to derail anything. Nor am I trolling...

It is obvious we share different opinions, which is fine by me.

Bet you if you and I sat down and had a couple of beers...we would probably get along just fine.

Typing stuff is not my "forte"...Been guilty of that and admitted that before.

Would I consider putting you on my "ignore" list? Of course not. Why? Because you do provide some great info to the general membership on other matters.

And at times...we agree to disagree...

Well thanks. Forums can be the enemy of real communication for sure. On that other thread, having worked with so many victims, I was very frustrated, and maybe you did not get your message across in the way you hoped. Regardless, we likely would get along just fine.

Now back to the thread. What I read about the gunsmith was from various shooting forums by people who knew him personally. Seemed just an older gun guy. I hope for all involved that there was a reason for that level of force to be used. I’m obviously not an LEO, and if it was uncalled for, then two families’ lives have been effectively ruined.

[dmac]

I chatted with a friend today who is a recently retired Ontario prosecutor. I asked him about this event specifically as it pertains to the jurisdiction issue. He told me that in Canada a cop is a cop is cop. This means they are not limited to or restricted by geography in performing their duty.

His thoughts on this event was that TPS has a large and dedicated gang squad and they may have had evidence the individual in Port Ryerse might have been associated with firearms recovered from gang members and/or crime scenes.

Plenty of speculation but I for one don’t believe this situation has any resemblance to High River whatsoever.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by sns2

Well thanks. Forums can be the enemy of real communication for sure. On that other thread, having worked with so many victims, I was very frustrated, and maybe you did not get your message across in the way you hoped. Regardless, we likely would get along just fine.

Now back to the thread. What I read about the gunsmith was from various shooting forums by people who knew him personally. Seemed just an older gun guy. I hope for all involved that there was a reason for that level of force to be used. I’m obviously not an LEO, and if it was uncalled for, then two families’ lives have been effectively ruined.

I agree with that.

What I have been saying all along is this matter will be investigated by a civilian agency overseeing police tactics/policies, and at the end of the day, we will all know how this thing went down. Which I believe we will.

Just a little frustrated with some of the comments made as to "how" things should have been done...or otherwise...without knowing all the actual facts.

All good this end...have a great evening!...

[sns2]

[QUOTE=Phil McCracken;4437714]I agree with that.

What I have been saying all along is this matter will be investigated by a civilian agency overseeing police tactics/policies, and at the end of the day, we will all know how this thing went down. Which I believe we will.

Just a little frustrated with some of the comments made as to "how" things should have been done...or otherwise...without knowing all the actual facts.

All good this end...have a great evening!...[/QUOTE]

You also

[KC1]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

Nice well respected people can and do make bad decisions that have serious consequences. Hold off judgement on all sides until the all facts are out.

This is the best post of this thread so far.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KC1

This is the best post of this thread so far.

As long as people realize that it can apply to all involved, including the police.

[WV911]

On the surface it sounds bad but since I don't know the reason for the warrant or what happened i will hold judgement.

Like most threads here, a lot of arm chair quarterbacks who have never been in harms way or Im betting even know the technical aspects of a no knock warrant, which I also don't know.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Of course you and the RCMP would like it if everyone just forgot about their illegal activities at High River, and the fact that they were never held accountable. And nobody has been held accountable for them shooting up the firehall, while trying to shoot one of their own in Nova Scotia either.

As long as you are around here "fighting the good fight", I am sure no one will forget about it.

Good Job!

[Talking moose]

^ nor should it be.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

As long as you are around here "fighting the good fight", I am sure no one will forget about it.

Good Job!

Apparently some people don't have an issue with our government or police ignoring the rights and freedoms that our veterans fought and died for, but I will always oppose this.