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  #181  
Old 11-15-2021, 11:04 AM
Iron Brew Iron Brew is offline
 
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Police forces seem to be reluctant to use body cameras. I'm of the opinion that body cameras should be mandatory for all officers on all raids. The technology is out there. I'm wondering if there is some sort of Canada wide policy on this? Or should there be?
  #182  
Old 11-15-2021, 11:14 AM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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The reason they don't use body cams is because of the cost.
You might think that any major force should be able to afford several thousand cameras but it is not that.
Most if not all are required to retain the data on all those cameras for 8+ years.
The sheer volume of data, and the server infrastructure, and the back ups to that infrastructure is what they don't have funding for.....
Soon enough a relatively reasonable expenditure ends up ballooning into a massive amount plus having to hire a separate sub-section of the agency's IT Dept just to handle this aspect of things.
  #183  
Old 11-15-2021, 11:56 AM
chasingtail chasingtail is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
The reason they don't use body cams is because of the cost.
You might think that any major force should be able to afford several thousand cameras but it is not that.
Most if not all are required to retain the data on all those cameras for 8+ years.
The sheer volume of data, and the server infrastructure, and the back ups to that infrastructure is what they don't have funding for.....
Soon enough a relatively reasonable expenditure ends up ballooning into a massive amount plus having to hire a separate sub-section of the agency's IT Dept just to handle this aspect of things.
So no cameras because if you do you have to keep the data for 8 years. yeah that makes a lot of sense. Don’t buy it, every phone call, text and web activity is already stored. Sounds like a police union excuse.
  #184  
Old 11-15-2021, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chasingtail View Post
So no cameras because if you do you have to keep the data for 8 years. yeah that makes a lot of sense. Don’t buy it, every phone call, text and web activity is already stored. Sounds like a police union excuse.
Or store it for a year. If nothing arises of it in one year junk it.
  #185  
Old 11-15-2021, 12:22 PM
nick0danger nick0danger is offline
 
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Originally Posted by chasingtail View Post
So no cameras because if you do you have to keep the data for 8 years. yeah that makes a lot of sense. Don’t buy it, every phone call, text and web activity is already stored. Sounds like a police union excuse.
Yea, i mean Data storage has never been cheaper and its getting cheaper all the time.
  #186  
Old 11-15-2021, 02:14 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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There are FOIP retention requirements for everything.
Every single police report is kept on file indefinitely. When they switched from paper reports to electronic they had to hire 30+ more people ( originally had approx 12 clerks) to manually scan and enter all copies of all reports. Then they had to hire more people in the FOIP section to deal with the handling and retention and disclosure of it. This was repeated all the way down the line until it hit the IT Section which grew exponentially, etc, etc.
These are important records. If a flood or fire broke out or if there was some failure in the servers they MUST have multiple back up sources in different locations to safeguard this stuff.
So when bodycams came available they were all gung-ho to buy them for the frontline people until there was input from FOIP and the Legal Advisor's area on how long they would have to retain such video. At first they were told 3 years, then it went to 5 and last I heard it was 8 years. By now I'm sure its probably even longer.
Regardless given that fact that it is video and not small files the study showed that the IT infrastructure that would be required to be able to efficiently download the video content at the end of each shift meant massive changes to the existing IT infrastructure just to handle the bandwidth surge that would be needed to send securely. We aren't talking about buying cheap Cloud storage on a privately owned facility that may be prone to hacks,etc. I could go on and on with the details and how the projected costs for all this was so massive they had to defer until higher priority projects were funded like recruit classes to replace the Boomers that are all retiring now....
And don't forget this is all happening at a time when budgets are being cut more and more as they probably should be.
Fortunately the final decision did not rest with the agency in this particular case but rather with the Police Commission that is made up of civilians from all walks of life.
But as usual, for some of you, facts get in the way of your pre-determined narrative that seems to suggest there is always some dark hidden agenda to everything the police decide to do.

For those of you who just can't help yourself from posting some smart-ss retort about everything, perhaps first ask yourself if you have any actual useful, firsthand knowledge of the question being asked before offering up blind assumptions and cheap shots directed at the very people who had no input on making the actual decisions they are asked to live with.

Last edited by C2C3PO; 11-15-2021 at 02:20 PM.
  #187  
Old 11-15-2021, 03:22 PM
fishnguy fishnguy is online now
 
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Thanks for posting, C2C3PO.

I would just end the following the sentence at “everything”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
But as usual, for some of you, facts get in the way of your pre-determined narrative that seems to suggest there is always some dark hidden agenda to everything
  #188  
Old 11-15-2021, 03:29 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fishnguy View Post
Thanks for posting, C2C3PO.

I would just end the following the sentence at “everything”.

I see what you did there, and yes, that works too !
  #189  
Old 11-15-2021, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
There are FOIP retention requirements for everything.
Every single police report is kept on file indefinitely. When they switched from paper reports to electronic they had to hire 30+ more people ( originally had approx 12 clerks) to manually scan and enter all copies of all reports. Then they had to hire more people in the FOIP section to deal with the handling and retention and disclosure of it. This was repeated all the way down the line until it hit the IT Section which grew exponentially, etc, etc.
These are important records. If a flood or fire broke out or if there was some failure in the servers they MUST have multiple back up sources in different locations to safeguard this stuff.
So when bodycams came available they were all gung-ho to buy them for the frontline people until there was input from FOIP and the Legal Advisor's area on how long they would have to retain such video. At first they were told 3 years, then it went to 5 and last I heard it was 8 years. By now I'm sure its probably even longer.
Regardless given that fact that it is video and not small files the study showed that the IT infrastructure that would be required to be able to efficiently download the video content at the end of each shift meant massive changes to the existing IT infrastructure just to handle the bandwidth surge that would be needed to send securely. We aren't talking about buying cheap Cloud storage on a privately owned facility that may be prone to hacks,etc. I could go on and on with the details and how the projected costs for all this was so massive they had to defer until higher priority projects were funded like recruit classes to replace the Boomers that are all retiring now....
And don't forget this is all happening at a time when budgets are being cut more and more as they probably should be.
Fortunately the final decision did not rest with the agency in this particular case but rather with the Police Commission that is made up of civilians from all walks of life.
But as usual, for some of you, facts get in the way of your pre-determined narrative that seems to suggest there is always some dark hidden agenda to everything the police decide to do.

For those of you who just can't help yourself from posting some smart-ss retort about everything, perhaps first ask yourself if you have any actual useful, firsthand knowledge of the question being asked before offering up blind assumptions and cheap shots directed at the very people who had no input on making the actual decisions they are asked to live with.
They don't need real knowledge, they know more because they read it somewhere on the internet and it leaked through their tinfoil hat
  #190  
Old 11-15-2021, 07:49 PM
calgarychef calgarychef is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
There are FOIP retention requirements for everything.
Every single police report is kept on file indefinitely. When they switched from paper reports to electronic they had to hire 30+ more people ( originally had approx 12 clerks) to manually scan and enter all copies of all reports. Then they had to hire more people in the FOIP section to deal with the handling and retention and disclosure of it. This was repeated all the way down the line until it hit the IT Section which grew exponentially, etc, etc.
These are important records. If a flood or fire broke out or if there was some failure in the servers they MUST have multiple back up sources in different locations to safeguard this stuff.
So when bodycams came available they were all gung-ho to buy them for the frontline people until there was input from FOIP and the Legal Advisor's area on how long they would have to retain such video. At first they were told 3 years, then it went to 5 and last I heard it was 8 years. By now I'm sure its probably even longer.
Regardless given that fact that it is video and not small files the study showed that the IT infrastructure that would be required to be able to efficiently download the video content at the end of each shift meant massive changes to the existing IT infrastructure just to handle the bandwidth surge that would be needed to send securely. We aren't talking about buying cheap Cloud storage on a privately owned facility that may be prone to hacks,etc. I could go on and on with the details and how the projected costs for all this was so massive they had to defer until higher priority projects were funded like recruit classes to replace the Boomers that are all retiring now....
And don't forget this is all happening at a time when budgets are being cut more and more as they probably should be.
Fortunately the final decision did not rest with the agency in this particular case but rather with the Police Commission that is made up of civilians from all walks of life.
But as usual, for some of you, facts get in the way of your pre-determined narrative that seems to suggest there is always some dark hidden agenda to everything the police decide to do.

For those of you who just can't help yourself from posting some smart-ss retort about everything, perhaps first ask yourself if you have any actual useful, firsthand knowledge of the question being asked before offering up blind assumptions and cheap shots directed at the very people who had no input on making the actual decisions they are asked to live with.
So at the end of their shift they’d have to back up/dump their camera…
Plug it in, take their shower and unplug it? Doesn’t sound too difficult to protect themselves as well as the citizens.

Cost isn’t too much of an object when it comes to protecting our freedoms.
  #191  
Old 11-15-2021, 08:14 PM
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tri777 tri777 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
There are FOIP retention requirements for everything.
Every single police report is kept on file indefinitely. When they switched from paper reports to electronic they had to hire 30+ more people ( originally had approx 12 clerks) to manually scan and enter all copies of all reports. Then they had to hire more people in the FOIP section to deal with the handling and retention and disclosure of it. This was repeated all the way down the line until it hit the IT Section which grew exponentially, etc, etc.
These are important records. If a flood or fire broke out or if there was some failure in the servers they MUST have multiple back up sources in different locations to safeguard this stuff.
So when bodycams came available they were all gung-ho to buy them for the frontline people until there was input from FOIP and the Legal Advisor's area on how long they would have to retain such video. At first they were told 3 years, then it went to 5 and last I heard it was 8 years. By now I'm sure its probably even longer.
Regardless given that fact that it is video and not small files the study showed that the IT infrastructure that would be required to be able to efficiently download the video content at the end of each shift meant massive changes to the existing IT infrastructure just to handle the bandwidth surge that would be needed to send securely. We aren't talking about buying cheap Cloud storage on a privately owned facility that may be prone to hacks,etc. I could go on and on with the details and how the projected costs for all this was so massive they had to defer until higher priority projects were funded like recruit classes to replace the Boomers that are all retiring now....
And don't forget this is all happening at a time when budgets are being cut more and more as they probably should be.
Fortunately the final decision did not rest with the agency in this particular case but rather with the Police Commission that is made up of civilians from all walks of life.
But as usual, for some of you, facts get in the way of your pre-determined narrative that seems to suggest there is always some dark hidden agenda to everything the police decide to do.

For those of you who just can't help yourself from posting some smart-ss retort about everything, perhaps first ask yourself if you have any actual useful, firsthand knowledge of the question being asked before offering up blind assumptions and cheap shots directed at the very people who had no input on making the actual decisions they are asked to live with.
Much respect Thanks for that!
  #192  
Old 11-15-2021, 08:22 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI 6.5 View Post
You know this as fact or just speculation? Were you intimately involved or just speculating like everyone else who apparently have all the answers.
Blatantly obvious!!

Take all manner of people who co-operate

day shift/night shift
management/employees
torch operators/welders
husbands/wives

and many more...........

when one arm of the union doesn't tell the other, one of them is untrustworthy. Period!!!

There hasn't yet been any type of excuse leaked to their guy at the paper.

If blue wall supporters would look at the situation, instead of instantly attacking anyone questioning, there might be more trust.

If the cops would even attempt to explain why one force did not tell the other, that would help. As is, just another unfortunate gun event involving cops, with no accountability ever!
  #193  
Old 11-15-2021, 08:36 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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Calgarychef to answer your question;

Infrastructure.
Secure I.T. infrastructure capable of handling large dumps of data and that connects each and every satellite building that they work out of with a central location that collects the data.
They aren't opening up their iTunes account and backing up to the Apple iCloud.
This requires a heck of a lot more than you think when you have hundreds of people downloading simultaneously out-of and in-to specific drop points.
Even the live CCTV footage from all building cameras that currently is transferred and retained it takes so much bandwidth it is painfully slow.
There are all kinds of technical challenges and they can all be resolved but it costs a lot of money especially since by the time they institute a solution "across the board" a year later something new comes out and the old equipment isn't supported anymore.
I have personally sat in on many of these meetings and can say that they constantly revisit the issue hoping newer technology and dropping costs will allow them to institute the program but as already said when you have other competing priorities for budgets that will be shrinking over the next foreseeable future I don't see it being done in the immediate future.

Companies that make specialized equipment for police agencies often make all the peripheral equipment needed such as docking stations etc proprietary. Then they charge exorbitant annual licensing fees for continued use of their software.
They charge many times what a consumer product would fetch for similar technology but as soon as they see it is for police use an obscene premium is charged.
Again the bureaucracy behind these initiatives is beyond belief sometimes but it definitely has become an industry all unto itself that most cities couldn't afford unless they raised property taxes even more.
  #194  
Old 11-15-2021, 09:22 PM
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brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
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Body cameras are currently in the "pilot project" stage and will be mandatory for all frontline RCMP Officer. Projected completion of the role out is 2023. This is public knowledge.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/body-worn-cameras

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2...aluation-phase

But like everything else in the Covid world right now, the role out is delayed. It is a lot of equipment with a lot of procurement issues.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcm...worn-1.6236705

And the new RCMP Union is not holding the up the process and is in full support of the project.
  #195  
Old 11-15-2021, 09:28 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roper1 View Post
Blatantly obvious!!

Take all manner of people who co-operate

day shift/night shift
management/employees
torch operators/welders
husbands/wives

and many more...........

when one arm of the union doesn't tell the other, one of them is untrustworthy. Period!!!

There hasn't yet been any type of excuse leaked to their guy at the paper.

If blue wall supporters would look at the situation, instead of instantly attacking anyone questioning, there might be more trust.

If the cops would even attempt to explain why one force did not tell the other, that would help. As is, just another unfortunate gun event involving cops, with no accountability ever!

I can't tell from your post whether you actually think that someone within law enforcement "leaking" information to a paper or journalist is considered normal or whether it is an unfortunate exception to the rule.
In either case you seem to be taking the position that because it hasn't happened yet that it is counter to justice being served. That it is somehow evidence of a potential cover-up?
I don't agree with that supposition at all.

I also don't agree with the premise that every single question that the public has in the forum of media needs to have a swift, immediate response.
Investigations are often complex and involve sources of information that cannot be divulged for fear of jeopardizing not only the source but of other potential targets yet to be identified and even further ongoing investigations. Sometimes these things are not linear.

If you honestly think that every shooting involving cops or every incident that involves their use of a firearm carries with it no accountability you are mistaken. In order for that to be true then you are basically saying both the officer discharging their weapon with the intent of using deadly force AND the unit/area charged with investigating the matter subsequently, completely lack honesty, integrity and accountability - in other words corrupt.

If you've truly never seen an instance of accountability then I will stop trying to convince you otherwise. I would, however, wager that what you really mean to say is that in some instances, that you have become aware of, it is your perception that accountability was lacking. In this case I could easily see your point since police rarely if ever get to trot out all the evidence after the fact to counter some of the pretty salacious soundbites you see from people being interviewed on TV, etc. And really what would be the point. It takes years sometimes for incidents like this to go to a fatality inquiry and even when exonerated by the findings of a judge after the report has been released do you really expect the police agency to get into a back-and-forth verbal exchange with grieving relatives, etc? It just doesn't happen.

This was a sad unfortunate incident for many parties. If mistakes were made it will come out. Despite all the bad press Toronto gets it isn't Tijuana. This would have all the makings of a Narcos episode if you expect anyone to believe that the entire team going in, the commanding officer and the initial investigators as well as the SIU team are all in on a cover up. Not within the realm of conceivable likelihood.

This is my honest opinion.
  #196  
Old 11-15-2021, 11:48 PM
Ishpah Ishpah is offline
 
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"In the meantime, locals have a message to Toronto Police: Keep your cops and your crime in the city, and don’t come knocking in Norfolk County anytime soon. "

There is going to be only one set of facts, only one story told. Dead men don't tell no tale.
Exigent circumstance or dynamic entry are usually spur of the moment actions. Usually an action carried out before a search warrant can be obtained. This would be your "no-knock search warrant". The watch commander is the person responsible for declaring such instances with the input of attending officers.
A warrant was issued, that means a magistrate had to hear evidence to grant the warrant. For what reason did it necessitate a dynamic entry? Obviously, the man has firearms in his profession given that he is a gunsmith. So in all likelihood, he may be handling a firearm at any given time, So that maybe the need for the dynamic entry. But on the other hand, the element of surprise should not result in death of the man by four gunshot wounds. And an officer in this kind of operation is not going to be a first day on the job officer either.
Anything that Tony Blair has had a hand in, like the TOPD, makes me suspicious right off the bat.
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Nora Loreto 6:49 PM 8 Apr. 2018
  #197  
Old 11-16-2021, 06:08 AM
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58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roper1 View Post
Blatantly obvious!!

Take all manner of people who co-operate

day shift/night shift
management/employees
torch operators/welders
husbands/wives

and many more...........

when one arm of the union doesn't tell the other, one of them is untrustworthy. Period!!!

There hasn't yet been any type of excuse leaked to their guy at the paper.

If blue wall supporters would look at the situation, instead of instantly attacking anyone questioning, there might be more trust.

If the cops would even attempt to explain why one force did not tell the other, that would help. As is, just another unfortunate gun event involving cops, with no accountability ever!
No attacks...just speculation on what went on is all....you mentioned earlier in a post fact...you don’t know that and neither do I or anyone else.
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  #198  
Old 11-16-2021, 06:53 AM
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sns2 sns2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
I can't tell from your post whether you actually think that someone within law enforcement "leaking" information to a paper or journalist is considered normal or whether it is an unfortunate exception to the rule.
In either case you seem to be taking the position that because it hasn't happened yet that it is counter to justice being served. That it is somehow evidence of a potential cover-up?
I don't agree with that supposition at all.

I also don't agree with the premise that every single question that the public has in the forum of media needs to have a swift, immediate response.
Investigations are often complex and involve sources of information that cannot be divulged for fear of jeopardizing not only the source but of other potential targets yet to be identified and even further ongoing investigations. Sometimes these things are not linear.

If you honestly think that every shooting involving cops or every incident that involves their use of a firearm carries with it no accountability you are mistaken. In order for that to be true then you are basically saying both the officer discharging their weapon with the intent of using deadly force AND the unit/area charged with investigating the matter subsequently, completely lack honesty, integrity and accountability - in other words corrupt.

If you've truly never seen an instance of accountability then I will stop trying to convince you otherwise. I would, however, wager that what you really mean to say is that in some instances, that you have become aware of, it is your perception that accountability was lacking. In this case I could easily see your point since police rarely if ever get to trot out all the evidence after the fact to counter some of the pretty salacious soundbites you see from people being interviewed on TV, etc. And really what would be the point. It takes years sometimes for incidents like this to go to a fatality inquiry and even when exonerated by the findings of a judge after the report has been released do you really expect the police agency to get into a back-and-forth verbal exchange with grieving relatives, etc? It just doesn't happen.

This was a sad unfortunate incident for many parties. If mistakes were made it will come out. Despite all the bad press Toronto gets it isn't Tijuana. This would have all the makings of a Narcos episode if you expect anyone to believe that the entire team going in, the commanding officer and the initial investigators as well as the SIU team are all in on a cover up. Not within the realm of conceivable likelihood.

This is my honest opinion.
C3p0, you are to be commended in your thorough answers, and in identifying yourself as LEO. Not all are so open, and just come across as bootlickers.

On the flip side, many of us, including the moderator you responded to, no longer believe much of anything that comes from police forces when it regards an officer(s) and potential wrongdoing. In recent times, it has become clear to many who were ardent cop supporters, that accountability and transparency are a thing oof the past. Many see the RCMP as an extension of the PMO’s office, as the head of the RCMP is a political appointment.

That is my honest opinion, and it seems it is shared by a fair number here.
  #199  
Old 11-16-2021, 06:56 AM
glen moa glen moa is offline
 
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Saying why the no warrant was given would be a start.

All we have is speculation because it takes too long for facts to be released.
  #200  
Old 11-16-2021, 07:05 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
Body cameras are currently in the "pilot project" stage and will be mandatory for all frontline RCMP Officer. Projected completion of the role out is 2023. This is public knowledge.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/body-worn-cameras

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2...aluation-phase

But like everything else in the Covid world right now, the role out is delayed. It is a lot of equipment with a lot of procurement issues.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcm...worn-1.6236705

And the new RCMP Union is not holding the up the process and is in full support of the project.
Hopefully the cams will prevent incidents such as the Vancouver Airport incident from occurring in the future, and will make the truth much easier to determine in investigations. And it may even change the behavior of both officers and suspects, if they know that their actions are being recorded.

Quote:
On the flip side, many of us, including the moderator you responded to, no longer believe much of anything that comes from police forces when it regards an officer(s) and potential wrongdoing. In recent times, it has become clear to many who were ardent cop supporters, that accountability and transparency are a thing oof the past. Many see the RCMP as an extension of the PMO’s office, as the head of the RCMP is a political appointment.

That is my honest opinion, and it seems it is shared by a fair number here.
Several incidents including The High River Gun Grab, the Vancouver Airport Incident, and the Nova Scotia Firehall Shootup, have resulted in a lot of the public trust in the police being lost. It really hurt the credibility of the force when officers were convicted of perjury for lying about the Vancouver incident, and if t wasn't for the videotape, many people doubt that the truth would have ever been discovered.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 11-16-2021 at 07:11 AM.
  #201  
Old 11-16-2021, 08:31 AM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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These points are all well taken and trust me the vast majority of police officers want the "others" who have stepped out of line or committed a wrongdoing to be held accountable because THEY are the ones who end up weathering the storm of eroded public opinion through no fault of their own.
It is extremely hard for many of you to fathom that most often there is no code of silence. That does not preclude some from taking the position they did no wrong until the outcome of an external or criminal investigation proves otherwise. Just like other people the "self-preservation" mode kicks in and they choose to ride it out clinging to a hope that a procedural miracle will save them.
In the interim rest assured that other dynamics typically happen.
These individuals are literally "cut from the herd" as no one wants to work with them, they are transferred to positions that most in the profession would consider undesirable and therefore a punishment ( or suspended with/without pay depending on nature of the complaint ), and in some rare cases dismissed outright prior to the outcome of any investigation.
The outcome from investigations relating to procedural wrongdoings under the Police Act (non-criminal) such as conduct etc typically carry many many times the monetary penalty you would ever see for criminal sentencing ( one-time forfeiture of thousands of dollars, demotion to a lower rank that involves ongoing financial losses through lack of earning potential that is typically in the tens of thousands of dollars and the potential inability to ever return or progress to higher ranks despite good behaviour, etc).
There are also instances where no one is happy with the penalty handed out but these instances are genuinely rare.

I recognize that some specific incidents that have been showcased in the news this past year make many of you shake your head and wonder how ANYONE could get away with what happened. Believe it or not there isn't an ALL BLUE CHEERING SQUAD across this country backing these no-brain moves but rather a shared consensus with you all that hopefully an investigation will get to the bottom of what transpired and the person(s) are dealt with appropriately. Rest assured that even if not much is eventually done due to lack of evidence to the contrary these individuals are ostracized and held to account in other ways by their peers who share your outrage and bore the brunt of public opinion since the brush stroke we are painted with is often all too wide...

I obviously can't go into specifics of each and every case. I know many LEO on this site choose to remain relatively quiet on here because some things are indefensible and trying to convince the majority of you that it is not as cut and dried as it seems is exhausting and seems to never end with the follow-up questions, what-ifs and other postulations.

I obviously won't be able to convince most of you to change your position on this and that is fine. I just ask that you at least try and hold on to the ability of giving at least a little benefit of the doubt when assessing these topical news stories and know that not all information is shared nor is it automatically a sign of a cover-up.

Lastly I will leave you with this. It is often at the crux of most of these shootings and takes us into the realm of individual perception. If you actually try to think deeply about it rather than just say "Yeah, no kidding" you'll be in a much better position to understand the complexity of the issue at hand:

The issue of whether or not the deadly force is justified in a particular circumstance is often quite separate from the decision to use it.
  #202  
Old 11-17-2021, 05:13 PM
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Appreciate your posts, and the perspective you bring. I'm certain that most LEOs are good and decent people that truly have the desire to serve and protect, not as a motto, but as a calling. Thank you for that.

I also believe that the lack of transparency and information is political in nature and several pay grades above the front line officer. I think this is where the distrust of 'authority' is more rightly directed, but unfortunately most people don't know who those people are. So the guy in blue with a badge gets the public flogging.

Anyway, hopefully some information comes out to explain what happened in this instance. A service was held for Rodger today and they spoke to media.

https://www.simcoereformer.ca/news/l...e33630371/amp/
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  #203  
Old 11-17-2021, 05:47 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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Thanks for that Twisted Canuck.
Apparently there was a press release held earlier today at 11 am by the family’s lawyer but no coverage on what was said by any of the news outlets.
The only reference I could find was on Gunblog.ca but you require a paid subscription to view.I could only read the title so can’t comment on what might have been said.
Perhaps someone here with access could share the content or summary.
  #204  
Old 11-17-2021, 08:34 PM
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CMichaud CMichaud is offline
 
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SIMCOE, ON, Nov. 17, 2021 /CNW/ - Family, friends and a community still reeling from the fatal Toronto Police shooting of 70-year-old Rodger Kotanko, will come together at his home just outside of Port Dover on Thursday, November 18, to demand answers in the tragic, dramatic police takedown.

Kotanko, who was well-respected in the community and renowned as one of Canada's best gunsmiths, was shot and killed by Toronto Police when they allegedly executed a search warrant at his home on November 3.

What:

News Conference

Who:

The Kotanko family, including Suzanne Kantor, Rodger Kotanko's sister, will speak out on behalf of the family

Michael Smitiuch, lawyer supporting the Kotanko family

When:

Thursday, November 18, 2021 @ 11:00 a.m.

Where:

Front lawn of the Kotanko home, 467 Port Ryerse Road, (North of Highway 6) Simcoe

Please be advised that the news conference will be live streamed on Twitter @SmitiuchLaw.
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  #205  
Old 11-18-2021, 10:30 AM
nick0danger nick0danger is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud View Post
SIMCOE, ON, Nov. 17, 2021 /CNW/ - Family, friends and a community still reeling from the fatal Toronto Police shooting of 70-year-old Rodger Kotanko, will come together at his home just outside of Port Dover on Thursday, November 18, to demand answers in the tragic, dramatic police takedown.

Kotanko, who was well-respected in the community and renowned as one of Canada's best gunsmiths, was shot and killed by Toronto Police when they allegedly executed a search warrant at his home on November 3.

What:

News Conference

Who:

The Kotanko family, including Suzanne Kantor, Rodger Kotanko's sister, will speak out on behalf of the family

Michael Smitiuch, lawyer supporting the Kotanko family

When:

Thursday, November 18, 2021 @ 11:00 a.m.

Where:

Front lawn of the Kotanko home, 467 Port Ryerse Road, (North of Highway 6) Simcoe

Please be advised that the news conference will be live streamed on Twitter @SmitiuchLaw.
Thanks for posting that
  #206  
Old 11-18-2021, 10:55 AM
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Puma Puma is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2C3PO View Post
The reason they don't use body cams is because of the cost.
You might think that any major force should be able to afford several thousand cameras but it is not that.
Most if not all are required to retain the data on all those cameras for 8+ years.
The sheer volume of data, and the server infrastructure, and the back ups to that infrastructure is what they don't have funding for.....
Soon enough a relatively reasonable expenditure ends up ballooning into a massive amount plus having to hire a separate sub-section of the agency's IT Dept just to handle this aspect of things.
But what is the cost of an innocent life ?
  #207  
Old 11-18-2021, 11:04 AM
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Au revoir, Gopher Au revoir, Gopher is offline
 
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News release from family's lawyer.

Family, Friends & the Community Demand Answers in Disturbing Takedown

SIMCOE, ON, Nov. 18, 2021 /CNW/ - Family, friends and a community still reeling from the fatal military style takedown of 70-year-old Rodger Kotanko came together at his home just outside Port Dover today, appealing to Toronto Police to answer one question: Why?

They are demanding to know why a "calm and gentle man" who was well-respected in the community and renowned as a top gunsmith in Canada and beyond, was shot dead by Toronto Police some 150 kilometres away from their headquarters. Just after noon on November 3rd, Toronto Police allegedly executed a search warrant at Mr. Kotanko's home on Port Ryerse Road, storming his workshop and firing four shots at him as he met with a supposed customer. His distraught wife, Jessie, was also home at the time and had been detained by police just seconds before Mr. Kotanko was shot and killed.

"Our entire family is struggling to come to terms with how this could happen," said Suzanne Kantor, one of Mr. Kotanko's siblings. "Rodger was someone people looked up to. He was down to earth; he was harmless. Yet his life was cut short in a manner we cannot begin to comprehend."

Ontario's Special Investigations Unit (SIU) has been assigned to the fatal shooting, but has shared no information with Mr. Kotanko's family.

"We have a distraught family, bewildered neighbours, and a community in outrage; but what we don't have is any explanation," said Michael Smitiuch, of Smitiuch Injury Law PC, who is helping the family navigate through the investigative veil of police secrecy. "Everyone who knew and loved Rodger Kotanko, deserves to know what happened and why his life ended so tragically, and they have every right to know now."

Mr. Kotanko leaves behind his wife, Jessie, and three children.

SOURCE Smitiuch Injury Law PC

For further information: Michael Smitiuch, mike@sil.lawyer 416-621-1551; Danna O'Brien, danna@obriencommunications.ca 416-500-0699
ARG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac View Post
It has been scientifically proven that a 308 round will not leave your property -- they essentially fall dead at the fence line. But a 38 round, when fired from a handgun, will of its own accord leave your property and destroy any small schools nearby.
  #208  
Old 11-18-2021, 11:35 AM
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58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma View Post
But what is the cost of an innocent life ?

You got some intel to this post?

Or just speculation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #209  
Old 11-18-2021, 11:58 AM
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lmtada lmtada is offline
 
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This is good. I thank you for update. Nobody know or discussing the incident, within my community (until I brought the conversation up). This incident is disturbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher View Post
News release from family's lawyer.

Family, Friends & the Community Demand Answers in Disturbing Takedown

SIMCOE, ON, Nov. 18, 2021 /CNW/ - Family, friends and a community still reeling from the fatal military style takedown of 70-year-old Rodger Kotanko came together at his home just outside Port Dover today, appealing to Toronto Police to answer one question: Why?

They are demanding to know why a "calm and gentle man" who was well-respected in the community and renowned as a top gunsmith in Canada and beyond, was shot dead by Toronto Police some 150 kilometres away from their headquarters. Just after noon on November 3rd, Toronto Police allegedly executed a search warrant at Mr. Kotanko's home on Port Ryerse Road, storming his workshop and firing four shots at him as he met with a supposed customer. His distraught wife, Jessie, was also home at the time and had been detained by police just seconds before Mr. Kotanko was shot and killed.

"Our entire family is struggling to come to terms with how this could happen," said Suzanne Kantor, one of Mr. Kotanko's siblings. "Rodger was someone people looked up to. He was down to earth; he was harmless. Yet his life was cut short in a manner we cannot begin to comprehend."

Ontario's Special Investigations Unit (SIU) has been assigned to the fatal shooting, but has shared no information with Mr. Kotanko's family.

"We have a distraught family, bewildered neighbours, and a community in outrage; but what we don't have is any explanation," said Michael Smitiuch, of Smitiuch Injury Law PC, who is helping the family navigate through the investigative veil of police secrecy. "Everyone who knew and loved Rodger Kotanko, deserves to know what happened and why his life ended so tragically, and they have every right to know now."

Mr. Kotanko leaves behind his wife, Jessie, and three children.

SOURCE Smitiuch Injury Law PC

For further information: Michael Smitiuch, mike@sil.lawyer 416-621-1551; Danna O'Brien, danna@obriencommunications.ca 416-500-0699
ARG
  #210  
Old 11-18-2021, 12:16 PM
C2C3PO C2C3PO is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma View Post
But what is the cost of an innocent life ?

I understand the debate that always seems to center around the "But if it just saves one life " argument.
But the reality is you go door to door and ask taxpayers that question right about now when municipalities are deciding how much to increase your property taxes.
I'm guessing you won't get any consensus.
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