crossbow season? - Page 11

russ · #**301** 10-02-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpedge

People are also being refused permission to hunt with bow and arrows for reasons true or false.

Sharpedge

I've never had that happen.

Stinky Coyote · #**302** 10-09-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpedge

People are also being refused permission to hunt with bow and arrows for reasons true or false. If those same folks gained permission because the crossbow is known and proven to be better in most hands: what would anyone be losing?

Sharpedge

Good post! I've heard the argument that people will be refused access because of the crossbow...because of peoples perception of it as an evil tool or whoever uses one is evil....kinda like peoples perception of reptiles....specifically snakes. But if explained exactly how you explained it...i personally wouldn't have any problem selling the crossbow over a compound bow to a land owner! Then again i can sell ice cream to an eskimo.

I agree with you 100%. We persecute this tool because of some sort of prejudism thats built into many of us. The more we learn about it and educate it...the less scary and evil this tool is and the more we appreciate the benefits of it...and recognize its true capabilities and therefore recognize that it is a 'bow' and it fits in with the other bows.

Okotokian · #**303** 10-09-2007, 11:15 AM

I THINK I can appreciate some of the differences between bows and crossbows, but it seems to me they are FAIRLY similar in actual hunting capabilities and requirements (short range, need for cover, etc.). It would seem to me in this day of decreasing hunter numbers and influence, that bow hunters might, if they stopped and thought for a moment, actually welcome an influx of crossbow hunters into their midst. Greater numbers would mean more security for separate bow seasons and zones, greater political influence (a bit greater anyway). If you try to stick to maintaining separate seasons and zones as your numbers continue to decline... well....

In the end, these groups may not be as separate as we think anyway. While I have no proof, I get a sense from reading here that many, if not most, bow hunters are also gun hunters when that season rolls around (could be wrong). Might end up with people who use both bow and crossbow as well, depending on their preference that day!

russ · #**304** 10-09-2007, 01:28 PM

Actually Okotokian there is strong evidence that crossbows will do nothing to increase hunter numbers. This is what occurred in recent US states that opened archery season to crossbows and kept reliable data (unlike Ohio). The numbers of hunters shifted but the total stayed the same.

If you really want to increase hunter numbers, and that's your honest to god goal. Work towards Sunday hunting in the white zones. That extra bit of time, may be insignificant to many of you but it doubles the number of days available to M-F 9 to 5'ers for hunting. Especially in November. And lack of time is often cited as a reason for giving up on hunting.

Okotokian · #**305** 10-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russ

Actually Okotokian there is strong evidence that crossbows will do nothing to increase hunter numbers. This is what occurred in recent US states that opened archery season to crossbows and kept reliable data (unlike Ohio). The numbers of hunters shifted but the total stayed the same.

If you really want to increase hunter numbers, and that's your honest to god goal. Work towards Sunday hunting in the white zones. That extra bit of time, may be insignificant to many of you but it doubles the number of days available to M-F 9 to 5'ers for hunting. Especially in November. And lack of time is often cited as a reason for giving up on hunting.

I hear ya. I've missed the past two Saturdays and I'm gonna miss the next one as well. I could have hunted all three Sundays... Would be great if we could move the government off the old "bible belt" restriction...

#**306** 10-11-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Actually Okotokian there is strong evidence that crossbows will do nothing to increase hunter numbers. This is what occurred in recent US states that opened archery season to crossbows and kept reliable data (unlike Ohio). The numbers of hunters shifted but the total stayed the same.

I think it really depends on the number of archery-only opportunities that a state or province has so comparing one to the other is the proverbial apples and oranges. It's my guess that you are right that the actual hunter numbers would not increase significantly but there is little question that hunters would spend more days in the field.

cbanderson · #**307** 10-15-2007, 06:52 AM

well for starters i'm a huge archery hunter and moved to alberta over a year ago from ont. I beleve that includeing crossbows in the archery season would not give any advantage to the crossbows! friends back home hunted with them and they didnt do any better then us with bows!

Gobber · #**308** 10-28-2007, 08:13 AM

I would like to know if they think that crossbows are magical or what. I got a crossbow and it's as hard as bow hunting is.

blades · #**309** 11-22-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chevy 454

Where is this petition at? I would gladly sign and could easily find at least another half dozen guys to sign.

For anyone who who want to sign, I will be at the Dec 1&2 gunshow in Edmonton at the hanger on Kingsway....anyone who does not, come and support the show anyway! See y'all there!
Blades

Dunezilla · #**310** 12-04-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blades

chances of getting a 1-200 yard kill are NIL. Close range tool only.......

Todd

Now we are talking. Close range is what makes hunting fun for me.

wolfen1960 · #**311** 12-09-2007, 01:18 PM

I don't think that the *advantage* of a crossbow over a vertical should even enter into the discussion! Both are primitive, very limited range (not much danger to others at a distance), quiet (will not scare game away at 1/2 mile. I have always thought (maybe wrongly so) that a bow only season was to allow those that chose to use one could do so in greater safety and provide a longer season since the success rate is lower given the same amount of time to hunt. What POSSIBLE difference could it make to a bow hunter if Crossbows were allowed in Bow season. Does it lessen your chance of harvesting an animal? Does it increase your chance of being hit with a stray arrow?
It seems that if we want to further this discussion in a similar (another thread) vein...scopes against iron sights, low speed against high speed rifles. I have rifles capable of speeds from 2000fps to 3600fps. Scoped and not. There are advantages to using one over the other for sure. One is good for about 150yds on Deer and the other 500yds plus! THAT is an advantage, but who cares, it is my choice to use the ones that are applicable to the season I hunt, rifle. Rifle is rifle, bow should be bow, vertical or not.
I hunt with rifle only, and have not used a bow for about 25 years. I would like to use a crossbow at some point, and I'm not really concerned if I have to use it during a rifle or bow season.
I have a tough time with the split that we as hunters cause amongst ourselves, and the reasons for them. It seems that any group that wants to divide us has to do very little, as we find enough nit picking items to divide ourselves. And we ALL know...this is just my opinion. Mark

dadof3bartas · #**312** 12-21-2007, 07:43 PM

just my 2cents

i am new to the forum and having read the posts(which took a while) there are more people for crossbows than against. the question is who is actually stopping the hunting and why? i think the biggest reason is misinformation and perhaps someone at the top who is a bowhunter and is afraid more people hunting may hurt their chances of success. i think AB should be like ontario. bow season is bow season regardless of vertical or horizontal. granted every tom, dick, and harry may be out in the field at first after 1 or 2 seasons they will realize having your bow cocked all the time does not make it any easier. plus its not a long range option either. in the same sentence there are hunters who shoot rifles way to far for their ability. to sum up basically if we continue to hurt ourselves by arguing the antis will have more fuel. (same as hounds vs baiting)

mikey

russ · #**313** 12-21-2007, 09:34 PM

more hunters = more harvest. More harvest = shorter bow season.

Jonny O · #**314** 12-22-2007, 07:00 AM

Not sure that more hunters would equal a shorter season. May be fewer tags, longer waits on draws. I am completely ok with the idea of crossbows being used for hunting. I have not decided on my position regarding zones and seasons yet for a number of reasons. One thing I am sure of is that some things are comparable and some are not. Some previous posts have suggested that the comparison of rifles with scopes vs rifles with iron sites is similar to the comparison of bows vs cross bows. It is my opinion that these are completely different. Shooting a bow instinctively vs shooting a bow with sites is comparable to the scope vs iron sites. I keep hearing distance being brought up as being the main concern or advantage with crossbows. I don't think distance has any influence on what sets crossbows apart from bows. Most people will agree that a 30-30 is comparable, lethal distance wise, to a modern inline muzzle loader. Personally I'm comfortable out to about 150 yards with both. However I consider these weapons to be completely different due to one very important attribute. Re-loading time. For example, this past wainwright primitive weapons season, I had just missed a deer. Upon missing the whitetail buck ran towards me and stood broad side at about 30 yards staring at me while I tried to re-load. He stood there right up to the point where I was replacing the primer cap. Now had I only had to rack a lever or a bolt, or even switch out a single shot it would have been a done deal. Granted the way I was shooting that day I would have missed anyway, but I could have easily had the opportunity for at least one more shot. Now there are countless circumstances that account for countless scenarios but there is a bottom line that certain weapons have certain limitations no matter the circumstance. The main difference with cross bows and bows is not the lethal distance, or the re-loading time but the ability to remain at full draw. Bottom line this is a huge limitation on the bows behalf. I could name dozens of instances where I was caught drawing back, or I simply couldn't hold my draw back any longer while waiting for him to quarter away. There have been times when I was wearing too many clothes to draw my bow, or every bow hunter has had the string hit their sleeve at least once at the moment of truth. These are just a few things that make the bow different from the cross bow. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a number of animals with bow, rifle and muzzle loader, and I love them all. I have shot a number of cross bows and I'm sure it will not be long before I purchase one to add to my hunting implements. I completely agree with many of you, fighting amongst ourselves is stupid and self-destructive. We have enough enemies as is. As a point of debate I do think it is important to recognize, not ridicule, the differences and limitations in the weapons and methods we use. Just my opinion.

russ · #**315** 12-22-2007, 07:09 AM

The precedent has already been set in Southern Alberta when archers exceeded the 10% population in the 90's. Their season was shortened.

Jonny O · #**316** 12-22-2007, 04:09 PM

That's interesting. I was not aware that they had shortened the season down south. Having said that, I'm a little confused Russ. If I'm not mistaken you're a well known member of the ABA, I thought that one of the main goals of the Alberta Bowhunters Association was to promote and encourage hunting. The more people involved the better. Has that changed?

Stinky Coyote · #**317** 12-23-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny O

Not sure that more hunters would equal a shorter season. May be fewer tags, longer waits on draws. I am completely ok with the idea of crossbows being used for hunting. I have not decided on my position regarding zones and seasons yet for a number of reasons. One thing I am sure of is that some things are comparable and some are not. Some previous posts have suggested that the comparison of rifles with scopes vs rifles with iron sites is similar to the comparison of bows vs cross bows. It is my opinion that these are completely different. Shooting a bow instinctively vs shooting a bow with sites is comparable to the scope vs iron sites. I keep hearing distance being brought up as being the main concern or advantage with crossbows. I don't think distance has any influence on what sets crossbows apart from bows. Most people will agree that a 30-30 is comparable, lethal distance wise, to a modern inline muzzle loader. Personally I'm comfortable out to about 150 yards with both. However I consider these weapons to be completely different due to one very important attribute. Re-loading time. For example, this past wainwright primitive weapons season, I had just missed a deer. Upon missing the whitetail buck ran towards me and stood broad side at about 30 yards staring at me while I tried to re-load. He stood there right up to the point where I was replacing the primer cap. Now had I only had to rack a lever or a bolt, or even switch out a single shot it would have been a done deal. Granted the way I was shooting that day I would have missed anyway, but I could have easily had the opportunity for at least one more shot. Now there are countless circumstances that account for countless scenarios but there is a bottom line that certain weapons have certain limitations no matter the circumstance. The main difference with cross bows and bows is not the lethal distance, or the re-loading time but the ability to remain at full draw. Bottom line this is a huge limitation on the bows behalf. I could name dozens of instances where I was caught drawing back, or I simply couldn't hold my draw back any longer while waiting for him to quarter away. There have been times when I was wearing too many clothes to draw my bow, or every bow hunter has had the string hit their sleeve at least once at the moment of truth. These are just a few things that make the bow different from the cross bow. I have been fortunate enough to harvest a number of animals with bow, rifle and muzzle loader, and I love them all. I have shot a number of cross bows and I'm sure it will not be long before I purchase one to add to my hunting implements. I completely agree with many of you, fighting amongst ourselves is stupid and self-destructive. We have enough enemies as is. As a point of debate I do think it is important to recognize, not ridicule, the differences and limitations in the weapons and methods we use. Just my opinion.

Two things...1...don't pick the crossbow up too early...or you'll be shaking like a leaf by the time the shot opportunity arrives. Pick up/draw a bow and hold....or pick up and hold a crossbow...the 'draw' only isn't a big enough factor to keep them out imo. Gotta pick up both...advantage same....gotta hold both...i bet i could hold a drawn compound bow still longer than a front heavy crossbow!...advantage compound imo.....the draw? eh...advantage crossbow. I have them tied at this point...or would calling it a 'draw' be more appropriate?

and 2....this could be the deciding vote imo....the RELOAD....ADVANTAGE COMPOUND!

So there you have it....compound wins...it is more versatile.

Listen to the guys who come from places where they are allowed....and killed as well or better than buddies who used crossbows! The compound is more versatile.

Still...if your comparing advantages of compound to crossbow...you gotta at least come up with a 'draw' imo. Its close enough that they fit with each other...no way to talk around that fact.

CNP · #**318** 12-23-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dadof3bartas

just my 2cents

i am new to the forum and having read the posts(which took a while) there are more people for crossbows than against. the question is who is actually stopping the hunting and why?
mikey

dad.....this forum attracts hunters of all disciplines (rifles/guns/muzzleloaders/bows). However, the majority are not bowhunters and therefore this is the result. If you take a poll and exclude a segment of the population the results will not be reflective of the whole. What I'm saying is if you take a poll on a bowhunting only forum, the results would differ greatly. I used to live in Ontario. Bowhunting is allowed on Sundays throughout the province (great). Now that is an incentive to pick up a bow. The season didn't open till mid Oct (in my area) from what I can recall though (not so great).

Jonny O · #**319** 12-23-2007, 10:02 PM

Stinky Cyote, Thanks for the reply, but I don't quite agree.

If you had to shoot both cross bow and compound freehand I would completely agree with you. Heavy cross bow you don't have to hold, you can kneel and use a solid rest just like a rifle. Don't know about you but I take very few rifle shots free hand. Always find a rest. The compound you can't, has to be free hand. In addition you are allowed to use cross bows here, but only during the rifle season in rifle zones, which I don't necessarily agree with restricting them to rifle zones. I have had some experience with crossbows and a fair amount of interaction with those who do hunt with them. As far as my experience goes and debates with those who hunt with cross bows, compounds have the advantage with re-loading time and shot distance. While cross bows have the advantage when it comes to using a rest to shoot and already being at full draw. (I was only reffering to the re-loading as it relates to muzzleloaders vs. riffles.) I may have come across as being against cross bows, I want to make it clear that I am not, I just think that they're different. In my opinoin I do still believe that crossbows do have the advantage over compounds. Crossbow is about #5 on the list of my new hunting toys, so may be I'll change my opinion the more in-field experience I gain.

russ · #**320** 12-24-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny O

That's interesting. I was not aware that they had shortened the season down south. Having said that, I'm a little confused Russ. If I'm not mistaken you're a well known member of the ABA, I thought that one of the main goals of the Alberta Bowhunters Association was to promote and encourage hunting. The more people involved the better. Has that changed?

To promote bowhunting, the membership has soundly rejected the crossbow in numerous votes.

Chevy 454 · #**321** 12-25-2007, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehntr

dad.....this forum attracts hunters of all disciplines (rifles/guns/muzzleloaders/bows). However, the majority are not bowhunters and therefore this is the result. If you take a poll and exclude a segment of the population the results will not be reflective of the whole. What I'm saying is if you take a poll on a bowhunting only forum, the results would differ greatly. .

There was a poll on Archerytalk awhile ago and the results were very even.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=569511

I would have expected different results too.

russ · #**322** 12-25-2007, 06:03 AM

I would suspect the poll was freeped.

shedcrazy · #**323** 12-25-2007, 10:16 AM

I have to totally agree with Russ on this issue. I had some talks with some SRD folks and it looks like most of southern Alberta will turn to draw for mule deer archery in the next few years. There are many zones that are on the verge of losing the general bow seasons. Moose will soon follow in this province as well.
I think the spike of new hunter you would get if you opened it up to crossbows might make more seasons go to draw then you would have a huge spike down in all bow hunters.
There is a fine line in the numbers game and finding the right balance is very important.

Jonny O · #**324** 12-26-2007, 02:38 AM

Russ, I am well aware of the ABA's opinion regarding crossbows as being considered the same weapons as compound bows. I completely agree with the opinion that they are completely different. I'm not entirely sure where this information is coming from regarding the huge spike in hunter numbers. I completely admit that I may be missing information on this issue and would love to understand where you are coming from. Almost all the rifle hunters that I have spoken to have lost interest in the idea of the crossbow once they learn that they can't shoot 100 yards with it. I'm not sure I understand who all these other hunters would be.
As a hardcore bow hunter I can completely understand the idea that a few more hunters may cause some problems in the bow hunting world. If hunting were an absolute sure bet for the future I would probably completely support the protection of the few bow zones and bow seasons that there are; unfortunately, as far as I can tell, the reality is that our hunting heritage is in trouble. The population of anti-hunters is growing much more quickly than we are. The idea of more hunters in the field probably means more competition for me, but a better bet for a sustainable wildlife conservation future. Again, I'm not decided on crossbows in all bow zones during all bow seasons but I can't see that impeding new hunters from entering the field as being our best decision for long-term hunting preservation. May be I'm missing something. Jonny.

wolfen1960 · #**325** 12-31-2007, 10:33 AM

I don't know about all the zones here in Alberta, but in the South where I live we seem to be in need of more Hunters, of any kind. Two years in a row and about 5 times in my hunting life I have been awarded multiple tags for Deer. The past two years I have been given two tags each for Antlerless Mule Deer and Antlerless White Tail. Also given a Antlered Muley tag in 2006 to go with my two Antlerless tags, and bought my general White Tail tags both years. 6 Deer tags for one person in one year? I feel no threat of Bowhunters, or Crossbow hunters getting more tags. I have no need or desire to fill all these tags, and it is easily done. I would rather see more hunters furthering the sport and all the firearms causes than the seemingly smaller number of us left getting more tags than we will use.
I know at least 10 others that were issued multi tags the same years that I was, and none filled all the tags, again no need for that many Deer. I can't see giving the Crossbow advocates a chance to hunt during Bow season affecting the Deer population greatly. If rifles can't keep the population in check, how does anyone think that Crossbows will?
I also don't see the edge that a Crossbow over a Compound/longbow is a threat to anyone other than those who have a *special* need to have a season limited to only themselves.
With CWD becoming an issue, firearms regulations keeping (and stopping former hunters) from hunting, our focus should lean more towards getting more hunters in the field.
I am not a Trophy hunter. I prefer to eat a Doe to a rank old Buck with a huge rack, and have no fear of too many hunters ruining my chances to shoot a Deer, or 6 each year. I respect those who choose the challange of hunting with a bow of any kind. It does take more effort and skill than it does for me to drop one at 200+ yards with my rifle, but have found little respect FROM SOME of those who choose to do so for anyone who chooses to hunt with a tool other than what they choose. I hear from Rifle hunters too that feel that a Bow only season takes Deer from their freezer and gives an unfair advantage to those who choose Arrows to bullets.
Too bad I would say, as our Hunting Fraternity is dwindling.

#**326** 12-31-2007, 12:18 PM

There have been some 324 posts and 10,270 views of this thread since it started last December. Jonny 0 and wolfen1960 have recently made some excellent posts; as have some others. I would like to welcome them to this forum. It's thoughts like theirs that keep me coming back.

With luck, the facts will speak for themselves and the government will see that there is a consensus for more liberal use of the crossbow.

Meanwhile there are two beautiful mule deer does sleeping on the grass outside my bedroom window. These are urban deer and we like to see them around. But if they become "too many": Will we be having a rifle quota hunt in our town?

Happy New Year everybody.

Sharpedge

Stinky Coyote · #**327** 01-23-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I have to totally agree with Russ on this issue. I had some talks with some SRD folks and it looks like most of southern Alberta will turn to draw for mule deer archery in the next few years. There are many zones that are on the verge of losing the general bow seasons. Moose will soon follow in this province as well.
I think the spike of new hunter you would get if you opened it up to crossbows might make more seasons go to draw then you would have a huge spike down in all bow hunters.
There is a fine line in the numbers game and finding the right balance is very important.

The draws are coming regardless if the crossbow is allowed or not...why?. Is it because the compound bow is so dang good and effective nowadays as to be compared straight across to a crossbow maybe?(in terms of harvest numbers)

A spike in new hunters?...if that were the case?....it would be a GOOD thing for all hunting period. It is simply options we would be allowing ourselves...and options are good....they don't change harvest stats enough to even mention....they don't bring a zillion new hunters to the game but i think it will bring a few forsure and definitely make the jump for existing gun hunters to bow hunting sports a lot less daunting. I keep saying it....overall good for ALL hunting its a benefit. Logic says thats where the tool fits...why would we NOT allow it there? Rediculous. I'm a bowhunter and have zero problem with its inclusion. Potentially a tool that could help bridge the gap between bow and gun hunters also?....uh....YES PLEASE!

Jonny O, your spot on, no need to segregate them at all imo. This is a selfish thing by the hardcore archer types....as noted here in this quote...it says it all by russ.

Quote:

more hunters = more harvest. More harvest = shorter bow season.

Isn't that rediculous? He doesn't want more hunters? Brutal. And second...he thinks more hunters would equal shorter bow season?...what a bunch of bull. I will concede that if there are more hunters there will be more strain on game...but thats life...do we want to grow our sports or not? If you shoot a compound then you are a hypocrit...the fastest growing hunting sport in north america and your part of it but now want to retard it? What the? Talk about bite the hand that feeds you.

And thats the ABA's position....deep down its a selfish thing. Wrong day and age for it. The same fight occurred when the compound bow came in and was finally allowed....whats the difference here? Is it that hard for us to learn from the past? Come on. Get with the times people. A bow is a bow. Anything that gives more options when they fit is something that can help promote hunting....and this fits.....just as well as the compound did. Us having more options is a good thing. What a joke.

And i call bull on the shorter seasons bit too. More draws are coming yes...but thats got alot more to do with wildlife management stuff than simply adding a tool that should already be in with the group anyhow. So in order to keep the draws from coming we want to encourage people to get out of hunting so there is less competition right? Brutal

russ · #**328** 01-23-2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

..he thinks more hunters would equal shorter bow season?...what a bunch of bull.

It's already happened at least once. The archery only harvest is capped for a percentage of the GAME population.

Of course, if the harvest numbers exceed the cap, SRD will reduce the rifle season instead.

Stinky Coyote · #**329** 01-23-2008, 10:19 AM

Follow the logic i would guess eh? The rifle percentage success ratio is probably a tad higher than the archery success ratios eh? Crossbow or not.

Okay...when you gonna start rootin for the crossbow then? Its not evil you know. And its about time already! You know it fits. Come on already...lots bigger fish to fry out there than this little issue....just being stubborn to be stubborn now or what?

blades · #**330** 02-10-2008, 12:52 PM

How many people here would be interested in an archery shoot that would include ALL forms of arrow flinging? The Okotoks F&G club is seriously thinking about such an event. Share your thoughts on this on the forum, or e-mail me at bladesandthings@airsurfer.ca

Hey Russ, This is just food for thought, but I was wondering about the votes the ABA has with the membership on the crossbow issue.....what information(and the source) is the membership using as a guide to come to an informed decision? The reason I ask, is I have talked with quite a few ABA members, and they were indifferent, or had a positive reaction to the crossbow.
Also, just for information, do you know what the current membership of the ABA is?

Todd