Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Hunting Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:24 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 997
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
I’m not sure who’s been lying to you, but I promise if one of my WMUs got hammered by natural or man made causes I didn’t get to switch areas. I was **** out of luck. Nothing to hunt and no compensation from anybody.
It’s the exact same as where I am now in BC, if I over utilized my resource I’m done. Investment is gone and I can’t sell hunts. I can’t simply say “oops” and go hunt the area next to me.
And that is why most outfitters feel they have a greater right to wildlife than recreational hunters, and will do anything they can to get rid/limit their competition. Joe hunter.

I would like any outfitter To chime in and say that isn't the truth.
  #62  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:24 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobalong View Post
Nice try again, but no one but outfitters are allowed to make a profit off the killing of wildlife. It is actually illegal for anyone else, hardly the same as the other businesses you mentioned but then you know that.
So how is your drilling going without a well license?

How is the logging going without a forestry tenure ?

What about mining coal without a permit ?

Heck, what about trapping and selling wildlife without a Trapline or license?

No one but the people that hold the proper license or permits can make money off of utilizing any of these natural resources I mentioned above.

So besides the fact that you don’t care about keeping those resources for yourself, what’s the difference?
  #63  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:29 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Bobalong oil companies don’t pay for the land at all, just like mines and timber companies. They pay for the resources they utilize, the land used in the process is only leased
  #64  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:35 PM
bobalong bobalong is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Bobalong oil companies don’t pay for the land at all, just like mines and timber companies. They pay for the resources they utilize, the land used in the process is only leased
Leased yes, but the point is they have to pay for using it. How much do outfitters pay for guiding on deeded land...........not one thin dime. Once again not even close to the same scenario...........still looks like a sweetheart deal to me.
  #65  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:32 PM
boah boah is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 863
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
I’m not sure who’s been lying to you, but I promise if one of my WMUs got hammered by natural or man made causes I didn’t get to switch areas. I was **** out of luck. Nothing to hunt and no compensation from anybody.
It’s the exact same as where I am now in BC, if I over utilized my resource I’m done. Investment is gone and I can’t sell hunts. I can’t simply say “oops” and go hunt the area next to me.
I believe outfitter allocation are not based on single wmu’s. They ar based on wildlife “areas” for lack of a better name. These areas are an accumulation of a number of wmu’s. So, if there are a dozen moose allocations for a certain area it would be VERY easy for the govt to move your allocation around in other wmu’s in the area.
  #66  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:36 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobalong View Post
Leased yes, but the point is they have to pay for using it. How much do outfitters pay for guiding on deeded land...........not one thin dime. Once again not even close to the same scenario...........still looks like a sweetheart deal to me.
It’s illegal to pay for access to guide on deeded land !


But they do pay yearly renewals to hold the allocations, and higher licensing costs for non residents. They also pay taxes on the revenue made.

So yes, the government makes a revenue off Outfitters being able to sell a natural resource, just like over other sector ! There’s no difference
  #67  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:44 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boah View Post
I believe outfitter allocation are not based on single wmu’s. They ar based on wildlife “areas” for lack of a better name. These areas are an accumulation of a number of wmu’s. So, if there are a dozen moose allocations for a certain area it would be VERY easy for the govt to move your allocation around in other wmu’s in the area.
Outfitters allocations are 100% issued by WMU. The percentage of the resident/Outfitter split is calculated by groups of WMUs.

In the recent moose allocation cuts there was no juggling Outfitters to different WMUs. Some got deer allocations or bear allocations as compensation, some got nothing.

I’m all for conservation, and if cuts need to be made to ensure the future of a species then so be it. But please don’t think it’s just a free for all of compensation and a golden ticket for Outfitters all across Alberta as they do what they please.
  #68  
Old 08-12-2018, 12:16 AM
bobalong bobalong is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
It’s illegal to pay for access to guide on deeded land !

But they do pay yearly renewals to hold the allocations, and higher licensing costs for non residents. They also pay taxes on the revenue made.

So yes, the government makes a revenue off Outfitters being able to sell a natural resource, just like over other sector ! There’s no difference
.
  #69  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:05 PM
cowboyhunter's Avatar
cowboyhunter cowboyhunter is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Claresholm AB.
Posts: 454
Default

I know outfitters that have transferred sheep tags to other wmu’s when they saw rams on the other side of the river. Just a quick trip to Edmonton. I also know outfitters that have transfers moose tags up north to mule deer tags west of Claresholm. So maybe it is who you are. The sheep tags were in the 80’s so maybe different now but the moose for mule deer were just a couple years ago.
  #70  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:27 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyhunter View Post
I know outfitters that have transferred sheep tags to other wmu’s when they saw rams on the other side of the river. Just a quick trip to Edmonton. I also know outfitters that have transfers moose tags up north to mule deer tags west of Claresholm. So maybe it is who you are. The sheep tags were in the 80’s so maybe different now but the moose for mule deer were just a couple years ago.
YA lol, in the 80’s maybe you could share a sheep tag with the neighbours but certainly not today. That would never happen now.

Getting mule deer tags in a zone that was way under for % might have happened. They sure weren’t giving out any new Muley tags up here where they were worth something.

Regardless it’s nowhere near the covert ops you were describing earlier lol
  #71  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:42 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 997
Default

Nope. Just a simple strategy. Keep residents out of your allocated area.

ANd along with the theme of this post, the last thing outfitters want to do is guide a resident and show their honey holes just to have them come back on thier own resident tag.

Remember, it is their wildlife.
  #72  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:42 AM
marky_mark marky_mark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
Default

I disagreee
I’ve contacted a few outfitters to do a resident sheep hunt
And I know of a quite a few locals that have done this
Typically they know the area better than anyone
They have all of the equipment and your not going to waste 2 weeks of your time

There’s lots of opportunities for resident hunters here in Alberta
I respect the fact that the outfitters are operating a business
And the deal usually I have with them is we share info on animals we’ve scouted and on animals that we’ve taken
No point waiting for a buck that’s already dead
  #73  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:03 AM
honda610 honda610 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 509
Posts: 855
Default

I have personally worked for an outfitter and have fed my kids with the revenue of that work. We hunted moose and bear were tags were and are still available in the undersuscribed system. I think we should seriously be looking at sask system only residents can draw speed goat, moose, elk ,mule deer rags. Anything that isn't a over the counter tag should be residents only. For the simple reason my kids are 3 years away from applying under there own liscence and I doubt they will get more than one chance at a speed goat in there lifetime. If a resident is so restricted on tags then we need to make sure they are looked after first. When I was drawn for my antelope 5 years ago the whole hotel was Yankees they cut a cheque and bam hunting were I was lucky with a 10 year priority. As for outfitting paying taxes.....people who live work and raise there kids here pay way more than what revenue is brought in on a 2 week hunt. Sure the guys I guided bought beer and gas but for a 2 week once in a lifetime trip. But that won't keep the local stores open. And I have heard with my own ears the contention for local Billy Bob the hunter from my employer and local guides around me. I have also tried and had friends try to hire local migratory guides and have very little success it seemed sask guides were way more receptive to showing locals there spot.....
Iam not claiming to be an expert on the matter but this is my take on a complex issue that effects alot of us.
Enjoy the nice weather soon it will be harvest time. Resident or outfitter take a new kid or new adult hunting one less anti is one more hunting partner.
  #74  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:38 AM
HuntingAlberta's Avatar
HuntingAlberta HuntingAlberta is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 447
Default

I have. Used one for an elk and went with a bighorn outfitter. We got my elk and was a great hunt. the bighorn hunt we were not successful, but had a wonderful trip and unreal experience. Opened my eyes to a few things and showed me that i'm the problem, not the lack of sheep. haha. His eyes and knowledge were incredible and we saw tons of sheep and game that i never would have found.
  #75  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:49 AM
bossmann bossmann is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 118
Default lets all share our secrets spots

[QUOTE=the last thing outfitters want to do is guide a resident and show their honey holes just to have them come back on thier own resident tag. [/QUOTE]

You don't think resident hunter's want to keep their "honey hole" to them selves but outfitters should for some reason tell random people about the good spots.

this is just ridiculous.

Where is your favorite spot? maybe you'd like to share a couple. There are tons of guys here that just started hunting and would like to have some place good to start without all the up front work......

I will never share a proven hunting location with anyone unless they are trust worthy. That's how most hunters are in Alberta. Why should outfitters be any different?

GPS locations are good. just make a list and maybe you can show a few guys around and introduce them to the landowners you have asked permission on for years.
  #76  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:20 AM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
Nope. Just a simple strategy. Keep residents out of your allocated area.

ANd along with the theme of this post, the last thing outfitters want to do is guide a resident and show their honey holes just to have them come back on thier own resident tag.

Remember, it is their wildlife.
LMFAO !!!!

This is just ridiculous and grasping at straws now !!!

Anybody that posts on here asking for locations to hunt gets yelled at and told to do the work themselves, get out and burn boot leather, why don’t you actually scout ! . But Outfitters should be required to bring residents into their spots or they’re guilty of “thinking the wildlife is theirs and keeping it all for themselves”

The amount of hate and misinformation posted here is nothing but laughable!!!
  #77  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:19 AM
Justahunter Justahunter is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 110
Default

bossman ,tork ,you guys re right on the $$$. Outfitters are totally the same as resident hunters. In fact most of them are/were at one time or another. They simply just took their passion for the outdoors and hunting to another level. It is shameful how so many guys are down on outfitters. This divisive attitude only weakens our position with the true culprits. That is the anti huntung crowd that has infiltrated our natural resources dept`s in Alberta ,Canada ,North America ,and world wide. Time for us to wake up and smell the coffee. If you are gonna bitch ,make it at an anti hunter
  #78  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:24 PM
wbl170 wbl170 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 874
Default

Correct me if I am wrong but are not allocations done by Smu's not Wmu.
  #79  
Old 08-13-2018, 12:58 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 752
Default

"I will never share a proven hunting location with anyone unless they are trust worthy. That's how most hunters are in Alberta. Why should outfitters be any different?"





Ummmmm, because they are getting paid to do so?
  #80  
Old 08-13-2018, 01:27 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 997
Default

Looks like I touched a nerve with my last post.

Don't understand why outfitters refuse to see any other points of view that differ from what they spout.

Outfitters are in the game to make money. That is what hunting in alberta should be all about. Now everybody get with the program, and get out of their way.
  #81  
Old 08-13-2018, 02:31 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbl170 View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but are not allocations done by Smu's not Wmu.
Allocations are for a specific WMU. So it would say 445 Moose R. When calculating the numbers of allocations based on Resident/Outfitter percentages they’re done in groups of WMUs called SMU’s.

But I can’t use a 445 Moose R allocation in WMU 446 even if it happens to fall in the same SMU. Allocations are WMU specific
  #82  
Old 08-13-2018, 02:48 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
"I will never share a proven hunting location with anyone unless they are trust worthy. That's how most hunters are in Alberta. Why should outfitters be any different?"





Ummmmm, because they are getting paid to do so?
Outfitters get paid to take clients on a hunt, not to sell their scouted spots to a resident so they can go back the following year on their own and show their friends.
That’s why most Outfitters won’t take residents on OTC hunts. I’ll take anybody on a private land Mule Deer hunt if they have a draw that takes a priority 10 to draw.
But I’d never take a resident on a general moose hunt to one of my 25 honey holes so next year I can spend the summer looking for new spots while them and their friends hunted my old ones.

I don’t care how much you’d pay, that will never happen lol
  #83  
Old 08-13-2018, 02:56 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
Looks like I touched a nerve with my last post.

Don't understand why outfitters refuse to see any other points of view that differ from what they spout.

Outfitters are in the game to make money. That is what hunting in alberta should be all about. Now everybody get with the program, and get out of their way.
You didn’t “touch a nerve”, but people do get sick of reading people’s lies over and over again.

Outfitters are definitely in the game to make money, just like any other business owner. And despite your distaste for them all your tears won’t change the fact that 98% operate legally and there’s nothing you can ever do about it.
Outfitters get 10% of the harvest maximum other then sheep. Yes there are a few WMUs where that number was off, but in 98% of the WMUs it’s at 10% or less.
So like I’ve said if you really need all 10 balls to play with and can’t share just 1 you should go back to school because you missed the class in preschool on sharing.
I see your point of view clearly, it doesn’t make you any less wrong
  #84  
Old 08-13-2018, 03:13 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 997
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
And that is why most outfitters feel they have a greater right to wildlife than recreational hunters, and will do anything they can to get rid/limit their competition. Joe hunter.

I would like any outfitter To chime in and say that isn't the truth.
I guess as you are always right and I am always wrong, please comment.
  #85  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:32 PM
wbl170 wbl170 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 874
Default

Thanks for info Tork. I wasn't aware of that.
  #86  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:21 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,443
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justahunter View Post
bossman ,tork ,you guys re right on the $$$. Outfitters are totally the same as resident hunters. In fact most of them are/were at one time or another. They simply just took their passion for the outdoors and hunting to another level. It is shameful how so many guys are down on outfitters. This divisive attitude only weakens our position with the true culprits. That is the anti huntung crowd that has infiltrated our natural resources dept`s in Alberta ,Canada ,North America ,and world wide. Time for us to wake up and smell the coffee. If you are gonna bitch ,make it at an anti hunter
It's a forum. People are allowed to voice differing opinions. Even if strongly, long as they don't swear or hurl personal insults.
  #87  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:26 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,443
Default

Just because I'm a mod, doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.

Mine is that there are two big issues that cause bad blood...

1) APOS is the worst industry ambassador imaginable due to the seeming "turn-a-blind-eye" approach to outfitters/guides who break the law.

2) Albertans should not have to apply for tags that non-residents can purchase through an outfitter.

Beyond that, outfitters are just regular Albertans trying to make a living no different than any of us.

Tork, you seem to carry the torch for your peers. Care to give us your thoughts on both the above points?
  #88  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:51 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
I guess as you are always right and I am always wrong, please comment.
Not always right, no. But on this subject matter you’re mistaken.

You can take solace in knowing you don’t stand alone though.

Heck one guy thinks if you see a ram in another WMU you don’t have an allocation for you can just ride the packstring into Edmonton and exchange it because APOS has all the government officials in their pockets lol

Any way you have your self a great season, and don’t let others success dissuade you from getting out there and having a good time.

Onward and upward
  #89  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:56 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,830
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
Just because I'm a mod, doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.

Mine is that there are two big issues that cause bad blood...

1) APOS is the worst industry ambassador imaginable due to the seeming "turn-a-blind-eye" approach to outfitters/guides who break the law.

2) Albertans should not have to apply for tags that non-residents can purchase through an outfitter.

Beyond that, outfitters are just regular Albertans trying to make a living no different than any of us.

Tork, you seem to carry the torch for your peers. Care to give us your thoughts on both the above points?
The general response to your first point, is usually that it is just a few crooked members of APOS causing the problem. But given that APOS elects their executive, if it is only a few crooked members, it would be easy to vote them out and make changes. And if a member can't be bothered to go to a meeting and vote on the executive, to get rid of the problem, then that member, is a part of the problem.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #90  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:17 PM
Torkdiesel's Avatar
Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North of the Kakwa
Posts: 3,973
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
Just because I'm a mod, doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.

Mine is that there are two big issues that cause bad blood...

1) APOS is the worst industry ambassador imaginable due to the seeming "turn-a-blind-eye" approach to outfitters/guides who break the law.

2) Albertans should not have to apply for tags that non-residents can purchase through an outfitter.

Beyond that, outfitters are just regular Albertans trying to make a living no different than any of us.

Tork, you seem to carry the torch for your peers. Care to give us your thoughts on both the above points?
Having a different opinion is fine, spreading lies and false truths is where my problem lies.
Believing Outfitters shouldn’t have access to draw tags is your opinion, I believe the hard and fast 10% rule per WMU should be applied. Those are our opinions and we can discuss those maturely and learn from each other.
Claiming Outfitters are paying landowners for access, exchanging allocations and doing everything they can to prohibit residents from hunting are accusations of criminal activity. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, or even that is doesn’t happen, but those are bad seeds who break the law, just like bad seed residents who break the law.

So I touched on your first question a bit. I think quota should be set at 10% of the residents harvest level. Ie. 10% of a certain species set aside in each WMU for non residents to hunt through outfitters. It’s a wonderful industry, it utilizes a renewable resource, and it brings funds in from outside the country.

To answer your first question regarding APOS, I’m not a member anymore so here it goes. I think APOS and the entire Outfitting industry in Alberta is flawed. Having multiple outfitters in one WMU is a terrible system. Also not allowing Outfitters to manage game within their territories is counter productive. I think APOS should be an advocate for the Outfitters they represent, not a governing body.
As for APOS handing out discipline to Outfitters that break the law, I don’t think they should have any part in it. If an Outfitter breaks the law it should be treated like any other crime. First offences should be fines, but if it continues why would the government wait for APOS to hand out a second punishment? The court should have the power to pull allocations and prohibit Outfitters from operating.
That’s not going to happen as long as APOS holds the power they do.

That’s the way I see it anyway. In BC I’m controlled by the government and advocated for by the GOABC. But if I step out of line the Government shuts me down. Don’t see why that wouldn’t work in Alberta
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.