Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05-20-2018, 06:06 PM
vcmm's Avatar
vcmm vcmm is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So you admit that you don't know how the firearms were stored, yet you claim that they were not stored safely? That is nothing more than an asinine assumption.
Elk my friend.... Instead of getting a time out or worse getting banned, It is time to admit it is always the tool used. Not the tool using it!!
Being a political sheep is in vogue............
There are people on here with an agenda.
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff


"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta

.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!

LC

"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......

when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.

Go figure." -Huntinstuff
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:47 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So you admit that you don't know how the firearms were stored, yet you claim that they were not stored safely? That is nothing more than an asinine assumption.
If ur child can get a hold of your guns then u have stored them unsafely. Sit down now
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:59 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bub View Post
Can't really say I was in shock when I saw the news. I actually did not even bother to check any of the articles beyond a few headlines. One of them, by the way, stated something along the lines of "The deadliest mass shooting in the US since February when blah blah in Florida."

From the few things I saw in the posts above (maybe completely untrue), the thing could have been prevented if our southern neighbours had minimal firearm storage requirements. Not sure what really happened (and can't really say that I am too interested in finding out because, like I said, another one bites the dust and there will in all likelihood be another one in a month or two), but if the gun(s) belong to a parent and were easily available, the parent should be responsible and should be sued by the victims' families until butt naked. Perhaps others will then think just a little harder, but it is highly unlikely because



P.S. No, I am not antigun and whatever. I own quite a few firearms and am not happy with what is being proposed by our country's leaders in terms of firearm legislation.
Wow dude, another one bites the dust?!!!! I guess you never lost someone in your life. Eventually we all do , one way or another
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:07 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
Undoubtedly that is a big part of it. 15 seconds of infamy.
Maybe going forward we never share the names of the killers but only the victims. Let them be forgotten from history and our minds. Lets not share the photos or stories
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:13 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bat119 View Post
This happened in Texas the storage laws are simple 38 in the nightstand and the shotgun behind the closet door.
When I was 16 I had my own shotguns and rifles, I don't believe access had nothing to do with this crime the guy spun out over a woman. If he wouldn't have gotten into Dad's gun's he would have borrowed cousin Cletus's or used a truck.
I agree with that, there are many ways a nut job can do heinous things. But I do wonder how does a nut job get to that stage of no return without anyone around him noticing. It is too complicated to blame one person or one thing.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:18 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,446
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
Maybe going forward we never share the names of the killers but only the victims. Let them be forgotten from history and our minds. Lets not share the photos or stories
That has been the policy of CNN for quite some time. It should be law. It can't hurt.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:21 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
If ur child can get a hold of your guns then u have stored them unsafely. Sit down now
Perhaps your 17 year olds are helpless snowflakes, that can't use tools, and have no mechanical aptitude, but I had 15 year old RAP students working for me that could easily break into most cheap safes or gun cabinets, that would constitute legal safe storage according to our regulations. And trigger locks , which constitute safe legal storage are a joke, as most 12 year olds can remove them with a butter knife or a screwdriver. If they don't know how, they can simply look up a you tube that shows them how. So unless you have a very high end safe, you are kidding yourself if you think that your firearms can't be stolen by a determined teenager.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.

Last edited by elkhunter11; 05-20-2018 at 08:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:29 PM
6.5 shooter's Avatar
6.5 shooter 6.5 shooter is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,205
Default

KGB

Coming from you...I will take that as a complement.
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.

Last edited by 6.5 shooter; 05-20-2018 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:43 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Perhaps your 17 year olds are helpless snowflakes, that can't use tools, and have no mechanical aptitude, but I had 15 year old RAP students working for me that could easily break into most cheap safes or gun cabinets, that would constitute legal safe storage according to our regulations. And trigger locks , which constitute safe legal storage are a joke, as most 12 year olds can remove them with a butter knife or a screwdriver. If they don't know how, they can simply look up a you tube that shows them how. So unless you have a very high end safe, you are kidding yourself if you think that your firearms can't be stolen by a determined teenager.
Congratulations, u get outsmarted by a 15 yr old.

If u have that kind of kids who can break into safes then maybe u should invest in a proper safe. Make sure to ask the salesman to give the child proof kind.

Wow dude
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:51 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
Congratulations, u get outsmarted by a 15 yr old.

If u have that kind of kids who can break into safes then maybe u should invest in a proper safe. Make sure to ask the salesman to give the child proof kind.

Wow dude
I have never had a safe broken into, but if one of my RAP students or apprentices did not have the mechanical aptitude, and could not use tools well enough to break into a cheap gun safe or gun cabinet, I wouldn't want them working for me, as they will never make a good tradesman. It takes very little skill to break into a gun safe, and there are videos online that demonstrate just how easy it is. Just because a 17 year old accessed firearms, is by no means proof that the firearms were not locked up.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:07 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I have never had a safe broken into, but if one of my RAP students or apprentices did not have the mechanical aptitude, and could not use tools well enough to break into a cheap gun safe or gun cabinet, I wouldn't want them working for me, as they will never make a good tradesman. It takes very little skill to break into a gun safe, and there are videos online that demonstrate just how easy it is. Just because a 17 year old accessed firearms, is by no means proof that the firearms were not locked up.
My grandpa used to say “ some people will look at your finger when you point at the moon and best is to let them be”.

Maybe they were locked and maybe not, but every gun owner should take proper precautions to safely store their firearms based on their circumstances. I had no safe for the first 2 years of my gun ownership. When I lived alone and had no roommates.

Got a wife and bought a safe, she has no access to. All my guns have trigger locks still and ammo boxes are also locked. When my children are 17 , I will buy a proper safe and if I feel that my kids are problematic then I will address the problem by whatever means necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:14 PM
brendan's dad's Avatar
brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,093
Default

From the numerous reports there was very little to no indicators and the parents and many others are in complete shock. He 17 years old. I am fairly sure at 17 he would have known how to access his father firearms. This knowledge may have been from going shooting or hunting with his Dad in the past. My Son is 10 and he is often in my gun room when I am doing reloading or working on my bows. He knows where my guns are and if he was 17, and had a little time and some of my tools, he could definitely get into my safes. He doesn't know combinations or key location and I feel I am very safe with the storage of my firearms.

I think this incident is quite different than Florida as Cruz had an extensive history and there possibly was some inaction by law enforcement prior and during the shooting. In this incident the shooter planned to die, by his own hand or police, but chickened out at the end. If a person is willing die and decides to go on a shooting rampage, there is little that can be done but to respond and try to stop him as quickly as possible.

Again a very tragic incident and from the information I have heard/read, I believe there would have been very little that could have been done prior to prevent it. Kudos to the brave law enforcement that confronted and stopped the shooter.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:24 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
From the numerous reports there was very little to no indicators and the parents and many others are in complete shock. He 17 years old. I am fairly sure at 17 he would have known how to access his father firearms. This knowledge may have been from going shooting or hunting with his Dad in the past. My Son is 10 and he is often in my gun room when I am doing reloading or working on my bows. He knows where my guns are and if he was 17, and had a little time and some of my tools, he could definitely get into my safes. He doesn't know combinations or key location and I feel I am very safe with the storage of my firearms.

I think this incident is quite different than Florida as Cruz had an extensive history and there possibly was some inaction by law enforcement prior and during the shooting. In this incident the shooter planned to die, by his own hand or police, but chickened out at the end. If a person is willing die and decides to go on a shooting rampage, there is little that can be done but to respond and try to stop him as quickly as possible.

Again a very tragic incident and from the information I have heard/read, I believe there would have been very little that could have been done prior to prevent it. Kudos to the brave law enforcement that confronted and stopped the shooter.
The problem is too complicated to blame 1 party I think. And I don’t think we can find a magic solution. But there must be something we can do, at least for now we should have an open dialogue where all possibilities are discussed without anyone getting offended.

While there has been multiple shootings, most kids are well adjusted and would never do such thing even if handed a gun.

Tragic and sad and who knows what could be the reasons other than that turd himself
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:38 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
My grandpa used to say “ some people will look at your finger when you point at the moon and best is to let them be”.

Maybe they were locked and maybe not, but every gun owner should take proper precautions to safely store their firearms based on their circumstances. I had no safe for the first 2 years of my gun ownership. When I lived alone and had no roommates.

Got a wife and bought a safe, she has no access to. All my guns have trigger locks still and ammo boxes are also locked. When my children are 17 , I will buy a proper safe and if I feel that my kids are problematic then I will address the problem by whatever means necessary.
So what happened to
:
Quote:
If ur child can get a hold of your guns then u have stored them unsafely. Sit down now
At least you have finally admitted that perhaps the firearms were locked up, that is progress.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:44 PM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So what happened to
:

At least you have finally admitted that perhaps the firearms were locked up, that is progress.
Lol, did I just get lawyered?. !!!! I recant my statement then. But seriously what am saying is if the kid got a gun then the circumstances of storage should be examined. I have already agreed with the other user who said the kid could have stolen a car or found any other means to do what he did. We all need to do better with our kids, students and neighbours. How? That I don’t know
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:03 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
Lol, did I just get lawyered?. !!!! I recant my statement then. But seriously what am saying is if the kid got a gun then the circumstances of storage should be examined. I have already agreed with the other user who said the kid could have stolen a car or found any other means to do what he did. We all need to do better with our kids, students and neighbours. How? That I don’t know
Yes we need to communicate with children , to try and detect and deal with issues, before it progresses to shootings. And yes we do need to take some precautions to keep firearms out of the hands of children. But the bottom line, is that no matter what we do to control access to firearms, it doesn't guarantee that a 17 year old won't get hold of firearms if they are determined to. And if they are determined to do harm to others, even eliminating firearms won't prevent that, as there are many other means to do harm to others.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:07 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,446
Default

If a crazy wants to get guns then he's gonna get them.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:28 PM
covey ridge's Avatar
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
Default

With all the speculation as to why the young shooter did what he did I heard two news reports this evening stating that investigators have not established a motive for the shootings. It seems that those speculating about motive are speculating about as much as those that are speculating about how the firearms were stored.

I wonder about how the firearms were stored and how easy or difficult they were to obtain? No matter how easy or difficult it was the shooter chose to kill.
In this day and age, unattended vehicle should not be left running with the keys in the ignition and homes should be locked and secured and when not in use firearms should be secure. Who knows what motivates a criminal to act, but we should never allow them to commit crime with ease.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:32 PM
Crankbait Crankbait is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Yes we need to communicate with children , to try and detect and deal with issues, before it progresses to shootings. And yes we do need to take some precautions to keep firearms out of the hands of children. But the bottom line, is that no matter what we do to control access to firearms, it doesn't guarantee that a 17 year old won't get hold of firearms if they are determined to. And if they are determined to do harm to others, even eliminating firearms won't prevent that, as there are many other means to do harm to others.
he didn't grab the car keys, nor knives from the kitchen, those two methods aren't tidy. he chose the cowards tool for getting even efficiently.
mind you, the firearms might have been as likely accessible as the car keys and the kitchen knives, who knows.

tragedy.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:41 PM
brendan's dad's Avatar
brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
Lol, did I just get lawyered?. !!!! I recant my statement then. But seriously what am saying is if the kid got a gun then the circumstances of storage should be examined. I have already agreed with the other user who said the kid could have stolen a car or found any other means to do what he did. We all need to do better with our kids, students and neighbours. How? That I don’t know

There are hundreds of 17 years olds with PAL's in Alberta. Some would have no restrictions on their licenses at that age. Do most people store their hunting rifles in the same vault as their handguns? Sure, why not? I am all for examining laws that are not effective, but I don't believe ineffective laws played a role in this incident.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:21 AM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
There are hundreds of 17 years olds with PAL's in Alberta. Some would have no restrictions on their licenses at that age. Do most people store their hunting rifles in the same vault as their handguns? Sure, why not? I am all for examining laws that are not effective, but I don't believe ineffective laws played a role in this incident.
As I said before, most 17 yr olds and younger or older kids too, are well adjusted and would never do anything remotely close to that.

I do find it odd though that 17 yr olds would have a restricted pal when they are too young to even drink or vote. I’m all for promoting the sport and plan on having my kids early, but that should be under close supervision by parents or instructors.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:44 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
As I said before, most 17 yr olds and younger or older kids too, are well adjusted and would never do anything remotely close to that.

I do find it odd though that 17 yr olds would have a restricted pal when they are too young to even drink or vote. I’m all for promoting the sport and plan on having my kids early, but that should be under close supervision by parents or instructors.
When I was 17, it was common for students to hunt on their own, and to carry firearms to and from school during hunting season. Far fewer people had restricted firearms, because far fewer firearms were restricted. We used 20 round magazines in our AR-15s, because there were no capacity limits. And yet despite these things, there were no school shootings.We could not legally drink alcohol or vote, yet we used firearms responsibly. The firearms laws have become much more restrictive, yet firearms incidents are much more common, so it isn't about firearms at all, and blaming firearms won't did the problem.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:17 AM
srs123 srs123 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 455
Default

I think anyone who blames firearms here is blatantly wrong. As other ppl said, a person who want to commit a crime will find a weapon or make out of anything.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:41 AM
brendan's dad's Avatar
brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
As I said before, most 17 yr olds and younger or older kids too, are well adjusted and would never do anything remotely close to that.

I do find it odd though that 17 yr olds would have a restricted pal when they are too young to even drink or vote. I’m all for promoting the sport and plan on having my kids early, but that should be under close supervision by parents or instructors.
A 17 year old can not have an RPAL, that is why I originally stated PAL. Not sure about the laws in Texas but I would assume they are less restrictive than Canada.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:43 AM
bat119's Avatar
bat119 bat119 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,343
Default

The antigun crowd will try an angle to blame the gun in this case the Father is getting the blame game. At 16 I had a 22, 410, 12ga. and a 303 hanging on the wall in my bedroom nobody got hurt.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:45 AM
brendan's dad's Avatar
brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,093
Default

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...mineur-eng.htm
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:48 AM
bat119's Avatar
bat119 bat119 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,343
Default

The age to purchase a shotgun or rifle in Texas is 18. Anyone younger than 21 can't buy a handgun.
Under Texas law, anyone who allows a minor to gain "access to a readily dischargeable firearm" can be charged with criminal negligence. Law-enforcement officials likely are exploring that option in Friday's Santa Fe High School shooting because suspected shooter Dimitrios Pagourtzis got the two firearms he used from his father, according to Gov. Greg Abbott.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...aws/625372002/

Sounds like Dad will be in some trouble
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:48 AM
Bushrat's Avatar
Bushrat Bushrat is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,898
Default

I get tired of everybody blaming the gun or how it was stored. As time goes by we have seen laws constantly get more restrictive and at the same time the amount and frequency of these shootings seems to go up correspondingly. When guns were available and stored openly, when there was no such thing as storage laws, registrations, background checks, mandatory training, licensing, etc, these type of shooting were almost unheard of. What needs to be addressed and dealt with and seems to be ignored by society and gov'ts is why these kids are doing this. There is some monumental failing of how society is raising kids that leads some of them to default to killing each other instead of dealing with their issues. Continually squeezing gun owners with more restrictions has not and will not solve this. It only distracts from and allows society to continue to ignore and not deal with the root problem that is causing this..
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:53 AM
vcmm's Avatar
vcmm vcmm is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
Default

When some kid uses a knife or worse yet a vehicle people MIGHT! wake up.
But I doubt it.
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff


"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta

.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!

LC

"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......

when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.

Go figure." -Huntinstuff
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:30 AM
KGB's Avatar
KGB KGB is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by srs123 View Post
If ur child can get a hold of your guns then u have stored them unsafely. Sit down now
Thank you, that is precisely my point!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.