Nurses to get laid off.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by chuck

There are a TON of private corporations that could help with cost cutting ideas.

Yea... corporations... problem with corporations is that ALL are geared to not deliver best service for best price.... they are all geared to delivering best PROFIT while delivering a certain product or service.... and lots of times profit can be gained more efficiently by reducing service quality.

The base motivation is out of whack.


But ya.....t there’s probably some good ideas kicking around in the market.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Yea... corporations... problem with corporations is that ALL are geared to not deliver best service for best price.... they are all geared to delivering best PROFIT while delivering a certain product or service.... and lots of times profit can be gained more efficiently by reducing service quality.

The base motivation is out of whack.


But ya.....t there’s probably some good ideas kicking around in the market.

The one thing that can be learned from today's corporations, is how to reduce bureaucracy, as in eliminating layers of management, that used to be common in the private sector, and are still the standard in the public sector.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The one thing that can be learned from today's corporations, is how to reduce bureaucracy, as in eliminating layers of management, that used to be common in the private sector, and are still the standard in the public sector.

Bingo bingo bingo


You and I very much agree on this in a huge way

[daveyn]

Couple of my family members work for AHS and they will confirm at any opportunity that the amount of waste in the system is horrifying.
Also I can confirm like others have said that the "managers" in the system are not actual management types but medical professionals who have been moved into management roles with zero experience, courses or backgrounds in management, which of course leads to an awful lot of inefficiencies as well as a crazy amount of HR issues, which of course leads to more HR people and more bureaucracy and more waste.
Lastly I find it interesting that the cut in nurses is announced literally weeks prior to the opening of contract negotiations with the nurses union, is it possible that the Gov't is simply opening a bargaining position to counter the Union wage increase demands, you want more money, we want to lay off staff, how bout we end up in the middle where you don't get any increase in wages and we don't lay off any staff. I can say I held the line on wages and you can say you saved everybodies job and we both look like winners? Just a thought.

[Glion]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Yea... corporations... problem with corporations is that ALL are geared to not deliver best service for best price.... they are all geared to delivering best PROFIT while delivering a certain product or service.... and lots of times profit can be gained more efficiently by reducing service quality.

The base motivation is out of whack.


But ya.....t there’s probably some good ideas kicking around in the market.

No not all are geared only for profit... in our corporation we are geared for the best product. If we don't produce the best product at a fair price we lose the work. Yes we will need to make a profit and we will sometimes turn down jobs that will lose us money. But we have also turned down jobs that would have made us alot of money for various reasons. Bottom line is our corporation wants to produce the best product not the most money.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by amosfella

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...s-nurses-union

Here's the most interesting sentence in the article.


However, if you read the article carefully, the union seems most angry about their numbers being reduced.

Seems like Kenney is talking about moving to a more public/private health care system. The Unions wouldn't necessarily have the power in the private side.

Ever notice that any time the government talks about allowing to private sector to offer certain services, the union is out there preaching doom and gloom?

It's about control and money for the union bosses. If you reduce the union membership, you reduce the unions control and the bosses income. That's a fat position that needs to be majorly cut back.

Also notice in the quoted sentence that AHS is called an organization. NOT a government department. That is very significant. AHS is not part of the government. It's an independently run trust/company/other organization (likely for profit but could be a nonprofit) that acts as an agent for the government to provide health care in exchange for payment (likely greatly inflated). The money is paid to HAS, and the top/ management/ paperpushers get the first and much larger cut. The people doing the actual work get the leftovers.

In the past, I remember hearing on the news that AHS got more funding, and they hired more managers to find better 'efficiencies'.

Take your meds!!!!!

[raab]

Originally Posted by Glion

No not all are geared only for profit... in our corporation we are geared for the best product. If we don't produce the best product at a fair price we lose the work. Yes we will need to make a profit and we will sometimes turn down jobs that will lose us money. But we have also turned down jobs that would have made us alot of money for various reasons. Bottom line is our corporation wants to produce the best product not the most money.

Most corporations want to produce the best product for the best price giving their customers the best value. Because business is so competitive the ones who’s put out a crap product in the name of profit usually fail. The same would happen in healthcare and education. Crappy hospitals or providers will fail as people stay away from there institutions.

[bessiedog]

Good one jr high capitalism explanations......

You’re right raab. I’m critically ill... imma gonna exercise my capitalist right to choose.

Nope. It doesn’t work that way.
Healthcare ‘consumerism’ is confounded by the tendency for people to want care rather urgently. Critical consumer thinky skills are crippled by emotions about ouch, death, fear... etc.

Won’t happen like you envision it. Research is super clear.

But I’m sure you’ll just flat out disagree with me cause I’m wrong. Cause it’s capitalism or nuffin right...?

I’m done too

Oilers time.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

I think a lot of people in the province are pointing their fingers at JK when they should be pointed them at AHS and the unions.

JK actually followed his promise and increased the health care budget this year.

If the unions would take even a 2% pay decrease, I’m sure these jobs could be saved.

There are over 100,000 AHS employees in AB. This is 0.005% of the workforce.

1 divided by 200 = .005 (but that’s not percentage yet....if your using these numbers it’s .5%)
So, (giving you some slack on the math % concept) you’re saying there is 200X 100,000 = 20million workers in Alberta?????

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

1 divided by 200 = .005 (but that’s not percentage yet....if your using these numbers it’s .5%)
So, (giving you some slack on the math % concept) you’re saying there is 200X 100,000 = 20million workers in Alberta?????

You’re right I screwed up. Forgot to x 100.

500 full time positions eliminated, 100,000 workers. 0.5% of the workforce, not 0.005 like I said before.

[fishnguy]

I think 500 is about 3% of all the nurses AHS employs in Alberta, from what I read. It is significant.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by Map Maker

Geez, that’s the best idea I heard on here in a looong time!

Maybe 3 years to coincide with elections

Beesiedogs idea was dumb, seconding it even worse.

Think about it......after 3years we fire all teachers or mechanics......just when they finally figured out how to do their job well!!!!

[bessiedog]

Wrong blackie

Make it well paid.... good compensation to attract ‘best’ types.

People will come to serve.... maybe do 2 terms with proper oversight.
Use $ incentive model as well as public service prestige incentive or sumthin like that.

It’s got potential. And I don’t see you posing anything innovative..... just prolly ‘blue juice’ rehashed stuff

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by hogie

Article from Danielle Smith, bit of insight to overtime pay. From Calgary Herald.


I’m prepared to cut the government of Alberta a lot of slack in its first steps toward balancing the budget. I will not be moaning about any of the cuts in the budget. I reserve the right to bring back certain issues for discussion when we aren’t broke (like re-indexing income tax brackets). But for now, I say bravo to the premier and his finance minister for charting a path to balance in four years. We will have a clear target to judge the UCP in the next election.

My concern is that they are not going far enough fast enough and, by exempting health and education from the knife, they aren’t looking for savings in the right places.

Here’s an example. A battle is taking shape with the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees lead by the formidable Guy Smith. The government*wants a two per cent wage rollback,*the AUPE wants a 7.85 per*cent wage increase. They are both wrong.

The AUPE is wrong because it is absurd to think that any employee group is going to get anything more than an inflationary increase in the middle of this mess. But the government is wrong because some AUPE workers should get a higher wage cut than others.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation used access to information requests*to find out how much various government workers make in Alberta, compared with Ontario and the other western provinces. They found, for instance, that judicial clerks and transport officers make less than the average elsewhere. They probably deserve an increase when we can afford it. Occupational Health and Safety officers, meanwhile, make 34 per cent more than in other provinces. They should be rolled back much more than two per cent. *

But there is an even bigger problem in collective agreements that needs addressing. That’s the issue of overtime pay.

In the private sector world, salaried employees are often asked to work extra hours without extra pay. If overtime is paid, it is only after an employee has worked 40 hours in the week, and most of the time the hours are simply banked and taken as time off at a mutually agreed upon time. Any manager worth their salt is expected to keep overtime costs as low as possible.

That is not the case at Alberta Health Services, where absurd provisions in collective agreements have allowed nurses to work the system to their advantage and get paid tens of thousands of dollars in additional overtime pay.

Whistleblower “Tim” was kind enough to email me to explain how it works. For registered nurses, the duty roster for “on-call duty” has to be posted 12 weeks in advance. If an employer changes the on-call period they have to give 14 days’ notice, otherwise they have to pay the employee double time (even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week). When a regular or temporary employee who is not on-call is called and required to report to work, they are also deemed to be working overtime and paid at double time (again even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week.) Ever wonder why there are so many casual and part-time RNs? It’s because overtime allows them to make full-time pay working part-time hours.

The maximum compensation for a registered nurse on an hourly basis is $58.81, which translates into an annual wage of $112,974. (According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation*that is already 12.4 per cent higher than the average in Ontario and other western provinces.)

The AHS sunshine list*reports all employees in 2018 who earned more than $129,800. In theory, if the top nurse is paid $112,974, there shouldn’t be any nurses on this list, right?

But in 2018 alone there were 513 registered nurses making more than $129,800. The top paid RN in 2018 made $217,713. That means she is probably making more in overtime pay than she is in regular pay. Granted, that is an extreme example. But there are 30,000 RNs in Alberta — how many of them are working overtime on a routine basis and getting paid an extra $10,000, $20,000 or $30,000 a year? How many hundreds of millions of dollars is this costing taxpayers?

A two per cent wage cut will not fix this problem.

If the government wants to find out why the Alberta public sector costs so much, it should ask every manager to report on how much overtime they paid their staff last year. That’s the place to start the cuts.

Danielle Smith can be reached at*danielle@770chqr.com

THIS!!!!!! BY A MILE!!!!! AND MORE!!!!!!!!

I worked in Finance in healthcare for 15years. This abuse is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s a lot deeper than anybody knows. And we are wasting billions of dollars that could actually improve healthcare vs pay nurses double time and for not working. Two nurses in a unit working together can increase their pay dramatically while reducing the actual hours worked.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Originally Posted by hogie View Post
Article from Danielle Smith, bit of insight to overtime pay. From Calgary Herald.


But there is an even bigger problem in collective agreements that needs addressing. That’s the issue of overtime pay.

In the private sector world, salaried employees are often asked to work extra hours without extra pay. If overtime is paid, it is only after an employee has worked 40 hours in the week, and most of the time the hours are simply banked and taken as time off at a mutually agreed upon time. Any manager worth their salt is expected to keep overtime costs as low as possible.
That is not the case at Alberta Health Services, where absurd provisions in collective agreements have allowed nurses to work the system to their advantage and get paid tens of thousands of dollars in additional overtime pay.

Whistleblower “Tim” was kind enough to email me to explain how it works. For registered nurses, the duty roster for “on-call duty” has to be posted 12 weeks in advance. If an employer changes the on-call period they have to give 14 days’ notice, otherwise they have to pay the employee double time (even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week). When a regular or temporary employee who is not on-call is called and required to report to work, they are also deemed to be working overtime and paid at double time (again even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week.) Ever wonder why there are so many casual and part-time RNs? It’s because overtime allows them to make full-time pay working part-time hours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do find it kinda funny that the general population finds stuff like this hard to believe, after all it's been going on in hospitals for as long as I've been working in them (29 years). The big issue is that most management has a nursing back ground and this is the sort of management they've seen their entire working careers so it seems normal. Many of the union contract rules make zero sense from a business standpoint and if implemented in any other company would virtually guarantee a bankruptcy. This is only one of the little ways you can up your wage without breaking a sweat. There are MANY other tricks to game the system. I expect education, police, fire and every other government union has their own little twists.

As much as I mostly don’t agree with Scott h in a lot of his posts , in this case he’s right. Think about the concept of unions....go get paid more for less. And with UNA being one of thee most powerful unions in Alberta, they more likely have been pretty successful at that concept.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Wrong blackie

Make it well paid.... good compensation to attract ‘best’ types.

People will come to serve.... maybe do 2 terms with proper oversight.
Use $ incentive model as well as public service prestige incentive or sumthin like that.

It’s got potential. And I don’t see you posing anything innovative..... just prolly ‘blue juice’ rehashed stuff

Yeah, because you can hire any joker off the street and with our healthcare system being Soooooo simple and small, he’ll have it figured out by weeks end!!!!

Trust me, healthcare is one of the most difficult systems to navigate.

So your solution is to create positions that are SO temporary that only the desperate or unemployed will apply????

Incentives???!!!!! You have got to be joking?!!!!! Would those be bonuses??????
That will be great. Just watch the fireworks from those numbers.

Concept has been in incentives (ie bonuses) are not politically or publicly tolerable in healthcare!!! Hence you have talent LEAVING healthcare admin vs staying.

Your concept is to increase that loss of talent or discouraged its consideration.

[bessiedog]

Now your being silly.

Corporate executive compensation pkg.... make it attractive.

They’d come. Even from the states maybe.

No denying the job is super complex...

But your low balling it to find holes.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Now your being silly.

Corporate executive compensation pkg.... make it attractive.

They’d come. Even from the states maybe.

No denying the job is super complex...

But your low balling it to find holes.

I worked in it!!!!! You haven’t.

I saved Alberta Heath 5 mil one year, by digging outside my scope and being tenacious ( and making a few people look stupid). Got a thank you and a few pats on the back. Compare private enterprise where I’m at now. Increased profits by 800K and my bonus jumped by 50K.

Politics politics politics.

Hey didn’t we do what you suggested and hire that moron from Australia .....the one who was too busy “eating my cookie”.

Your living n a fantasy world if you think outside consultants or pro will fix this. There are a lhandful of smart people in the system (or they used to be there) that know the solutions, but political will has no nerve. What Kenny is doing is Blue Light. Even Klein was a ***** when it came to dealing with the issues and UNA.

[bessiedog]

I’ll concede that u know wayyy more than me on this.

I suggested term management for solving the admin fat that clogges the system.

And yea..... I forgot bout cookie guy... that was a funny sound bite.

Systems should have a meritocracy mechanism in place to recognize guys like you. But yea..... damn politics. If you found a way to save 5 mil.... the I wish you were still there. And it kinda sucks that You left cause we kinda need you.
Oversight ..... needed.


Mighty oil won.

I actually won my pool matchup by .3!!

BedtiMe

Cheers

[BlackHeart]

Bessie;

And further to my posts, see how a small change by Kenny has everyone up in arms, when massive changes are needed for our healthcare system to survive.

Outside high priced elephants (big circus show, but leave a lot of shoveling afterwards) aren’t the answer.

Talk of US system on here.....bad idea.....even though I’m very right wing on finance and govt spending.

Talk on here about private services providers....very bad idea.....seen it in the laundary and lab areas.....what a St! show. Private business in healthcare will do one of two things: Cherry pick the most profitable or lowball till they have the govt by the balls...and then jack prices. Both have been done.

3P or PPP....a worst joke.....private public partnerships....public gets to pay the full bill plus profit and hold the STy! end of the stick. Should be renamed public-profit-problem.

[fishnguy]

I have two relatives working in healthcare. One, a nurse practitioner, works on salary, unpaid significant overtime every day, hours cannot be banked either. The other, my wife, youth mental health therapist, working not significant (sometimes significant) overtime pretty much daily, unpaid, can bank hours for significant stuff. Both are short on staff and overloaded with clientele.

For my wife, paid over time was aloud in extreme cases only about 6-7 or so years ago. Had to be pre-approved. Then things became even tighter. When NDP came around, no overtime was to be taken at all. In extreme cases, overtime could be taken and hours banked. When NDP were on their way out, the children’s play room was relocated to a smaller beat up room. They were promised it would be repainted and a new bookshelf be provided to them. Then Conservatives rolled in. The request for $50 worth of paint was denied. Paint had to be donated (at least there are people who can still do that). The bookshelf? Lol. They made a deal with the local prison that the inmates would built a new bookshelf, given the AHS provides the materials. You guessed it, the request for a few dollars worth of materials was denied. Lol. And I didn’t even mentioned that the building they work in is really kind of an embarrassment to the government and us, Albertans (my personal opinion). Had I known about the paint and the bookshelf in time, would buy paint and do the work myself; same goes for the stupid bookshelf. That’s how things are. It’s not all rainbows and unicorns, as many tend to think for some reason.

Also to add, not sure about my sister, but my wife’s paid training was over years ago. She pays thousands of dollars out of her own pocket every year. Just went to Calgary, paid over $2,000 for a 2-day conference, not including the expenses of getting there, stay, lost work/pay time, etc. It’s expensive. Because of this, some of the essential training that would greatly benefit the staff and clients is omitted: it is simply unfordable. That 2-day conference could easily end up costing her at least $5,000-$6,000 (conservatively) if we didn’t combine it with a vacation, which costed me the best two weeks of whitetail hunting in the season. And I can’t stress the latter enough! Lol.

Anyway. Just saying that things desire to be better.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

The bookshelf? Lol. They made a deal with the local prison that the inmates would built a new bookshelf, given the AHS provides the materials. You guessed it, the request for a few dollars worth of materials was denied. Lol.

Quoting myself here, but do you think it would cost a lot less money to just buy a freaking bookshelf? I mean if someone said: hey, we need a bookshelf because the one we had in the old room was built in and couldn’t have been moved. And the office manager or a supervisor (or someone) said: sure, let’s order one in online with free shipping! Same goes for paint. I hope I am not the only one who sees how idiotic it is. But it is the required process. And it is just one example. I wonder if they have to go through the same process for pens and pencils.

Edit: Laughing here. What would they do when the new shelve arrives and needs to be assembled. We are doomed, lol.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

I’ll concede that u know wayyy more than me on this.

I suggested term management for solving the admin fat that clogges the system.

And yea..... I forgot bout cookie guy... that was a funny sound bite.

Systems should have a meritocracy mechanism in place to recognize guys like you. But yea..... damn politics. If you found a way to save 5 mil.... the I wish you were still there. And it kinda sucks that You left cause we kinda need you.
Oversight ..... needed.


Mighty oil won.

I actually won my pool matchup by .3!!

BedtiMe

Cheers

In healthcare my normal work week was 60hrs. If it was paid on a per hour basis I’d be buying sailboats, but it’s salary so that sucks. (Always offered to reduce my salary rate and take an hourly but never could get that to fly) During year-end from April to June it was 80hrs per week. Plus the stress (and my hour long rants after work) of working in a politically screwed up system. Just the mention of me going back into healthcare had the wife saying....no way....she’s not able to handle that anymore so she’s out if I go back to it.

To get me back, (and buy the wife off with some expense vacations) it would have to beyond 200K. Positions at that price just fuel the politics and UNA and those that don’t know better.

When there were 17 RHAs, we had part time nurses making more than the CEOs. Nothings really changed.

The solutions are simple, just like Buckley’s......no body’s want to take the medicine and nobody’s got the stomach for them.

What Kenny is doing is bandaid level to what really needs to be done.

[Scott h]

[QUOTE=roper1;4066253]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Originally Posted by hogie View Post
Article from Danielle Smith, bit of insight to overtime pay. From Calgary Herald.


But there is an even bigger problem in collective agreements that needs addressing. That’s the issue of overtime pay.

In the private sector world, salaried employees are often asked to work extra hours without extra pay. If overtime is paid, it is only after an employee has worked 40 hours in the week, and most of the time the hours are simply banked and taken as time off at a mutually agreed upon time. Any manager worth their salt is expected to keep overtime costs as low as possible.
That is not the case at Alberta Health Services, where absurd provisions in collective agreements have allowed nurses to work the system to their advantage and get paid tens of thousands of dollars in additional overtime pay.

Whistleblower “Tim” was kind enough to email me to explain how it works. For registered nurses, the duty roster for “on-call duty” has to be posted 12 weeks in advance. If an employer changes the on-call period they have to give 14 days’ notice, otherwise they have to pay the employee double time (even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week). When a regular or temporary employee who is not on-call is called and required to report to work, they are also deemed to be working overtime and paid at double time (again even if they haven’t put in 40 hours that week.) Ever wonder why there are so many casual and part-time RNs? It’s because overtime allows them to make full-time pay working part-time hours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is worth a careful re-read!

Yes it is. There are tons of RN's that are in part time lines only because it enables them more time to work overtime......Think about that for a second....
How about working an overtime shift, taking that as bank time off and then working overtime on those shifts. It works a bit like compound interest and is just as effective. Unfortunately almost all the people in positions in hospitals are in fact trained as health care workers (mostly RN's) and have zero business experience.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Hell with that.

I’ll buy ya many many beers at the Oldman Brewery! I’ll pay too!
Heh!

If you also got actual pragmatic savings solutions .... I’m all ears too.

2.9% savings really should NZoT affect front line services.

Actually I don't know anything about the education system but assumed it was as inefficient as health care.
I don't think front line workers should be those that take the hit. Doing that is stupid and will cause more problems in the long run. There are TONS of middle management, "staff educators" and other such positions that could be easily cut. Those people would then have the ability to bump or fill other unfilled bedside positions.
The one area that should be privatized is staffing. It is unbelievably poorly run by people who couldn't run a 7-11. That would save the province TONS of $$$$$ without touching hourly wages. There would easily be enough savings in cutting overtime to the bone that no services to the public would ever have to be decreased.

[Talking moose]

500 healthcare workers axed. People lose their minds.
100,000 oilfield workers axed. Should of picked a different field.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

500 healthcare workers axed. People lose their minds.
100,000 oilfield workers axed. Should of picked a different field.

How very socialist of you.

The only reason to look in your neighbour's bowl is to make sure they have enough, not that they have more than you.

[Habfan]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

500 healthcare workers axed. People lose their minds.
100,000 oilfield workers axed. Should of picked a different field.

I think that Alberta and Saskatchewan voting almost all UCP showed support for for the out of work Energy Workers. Not to mention the rallies and convoys, or the 300,000 signatures to Separate.

[raab]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Good one jr high capitalism explanations......

You’re right raab. I’m critically ill... imma gonna exercise my capitalist right to choose.

Nope. It doesn’t work that way.
Healthcare ‘consumerism’ is confounded by the tendency for people to want care rather urgently. Critical consumer thinky skills are crippled by emotions about ouch, death, fear... etc.

Won’t happen like you envision it. Research is super clear.

But I’m sure you’ll just flat out disagree with me cause I’m wrong. Cause it’s capitalism or nuffin right...?

I’m done too

Oilers time.

Well the fact that many people are willing to go to other country's for treatments, should lend some credence to my claim.

Now if someone is suffering a stroke or heart attack Id imagine theyd go to the place where they could be seen the fastest and have the highest quality of care. I think we can legislate that all hospitals provide a certain level of care, just like educational institutions.

[raab]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

I worked in it!!!!! You haven’t.

I saved Alberta Heath 5 mil one year, by digging outside my scope and being tenacious ( and making a few people look stupid). Got a thank you and a few pats on the back. Compare private enterprise where I’m at now. Increased profits by 800K and my bonus jumped by 50K.

Politics politics politics.

Hey didn’t we do what you suggested and hire that moron from Australia .....the one who was too busy “eating my cookie”.

Your living n a fantasy world if you think outside consultants or pro will fix this. There are a lhandful of smart people in the system (or they used to be there) that know the solutions, but political will has no nerve. What Kenny is doing is Blue Light. Even Klein was a ***** when it came to dealing with the issues and UNA.

Yep, anyone who has a knowledge of the system, and has the faintest clue on how to run things efficiently knows we need to break the public monopolies in healthcare and education. The unions are fighting this like a tiger you got by the tail, as they don't want to lose their powerful positions. I'm with Kenney all the way, and I think many young conservatives are in the same boat. Its the older conservatives who are more hesitant, unwilling to rock the boat. It's coming will just be a matter of when.