River boundary

[Supergrit]

Question I have one side of river lets say the east is a bow zone and the west is a rifle zone and the river is the boundary between the two zones. If a deer or elk is standing on the West Bank of the river can a person legally shoot it.
What is the rules for this ?

[35 whelen]

I was always told the high water mark on either side check the regulations

[Dale S]

So you want to shot a rifle from the rifle zone, at a deer standing on the shore of the bow zone.

[fishnguy]

^ Sounds like the animal is standing in the rifle zone - the west bank. Regardless, I do not understand the question.

River boundary is the high water mark.



“Ordinary” is a key word in the above though.

If you are talking about shooting an animal in the rifle zone - west side in your example - from the bow zone - east side - with a rifle, that would obviously be no good. Like I said though, I do not follow the question.

[FortMac]

No different than if the deer was standing on the West side of any boundary. Shoot if that zone is legal

[Supergrit]

My question would be the river is the boundary so if it’s standing in the river and your in the the rifle zone area can you shout it. Does it have to be near the rifle
Zone side of the river or what if it is in the middle of the river.
I heard some people say high water mark i heard some people say if you look at the directions of flow the river becomes the zone on the right.

If it was high water mark so then if you were located in thr rifle zone and the animal was in the water even if it was near the bow Zone it would still be legal to shoot ?

[roper1]

If one side is bow zone, and the other side is rifle, my thought would be animal has to above high-water mark in the rifle zone. Here's hoping you take the correct fork at the Y.

[Grizzly Adams1]

“Ordinary” is a key word in the above though.

I'd want a fair margin of error, no sense starting an argument with a fish cop, you might lose. A past flood could create an "extraordinary" high water mark.

Grizz

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by roper1

If one side is bow zone, and the other side is rifle, my thought would be animal has to above high-water mark in the rifle zone. Here's hoping you take the correct fork at the Y.

I recall an elk being killed on the Suffield side of the river, below the high water mark, shot from the north zone being a legal kill.
It makes sense that the high water mark is the buffer zone of both sides rather than to try to attempt to decide which side has legal access.

[KegRiver]

When I was working as a big game guide we were told by F&W that the boundry is the center line of the river, but since it is illegal to shoot or I believe the regulations say harass, and F&W take that to include shooting, it is therefore illegal to shoot at any animal in any water.

That being the case, and I can't say for certain it is, the animal, in this case the Deer, would be legal at or above the existing shore line if on the west side.

Just to be clear, I say I'm not certain if this is the case is because this law and many others are open to interpretation by the office present.

For that reason I always recomened that anyone contemplating such a choice, always consult the local eforcemnt agency in advance sine they are the one who would issue any citation thay may feel appropriate.

And BTW our base camp was on the shore of the Peace River, so we did in fact shoot many animals at the water's edge. And were checked on by F&W many times and never had an issue.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

“Ordinary” is a key word in the above though.

I'd want a fair margin of error, no sense starting an argument with a fish cop, you might lose. A past flood could create an "extraordinary" high water mark.

Grizz

I just “cut” it that way, but there is more in there, haha:

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

When I was working as a big game guide we were told by F&W that the boundry is the center line of the river, but since it is illegal to shoot or I believe the regulations say harass, and F&W take that to include shooting, it is therefore illegal to shoot at any animal in any water.

Unless the animal is swimming, you are good to go. From the regs:

It is unlawful to
… 3. discharge a weapon at a big game animal while it is swimming.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

When I was working as a big game guide we were told by F&W that the boundry is the center line of the river, but since it is illegal to shoot or I believe the regulations say harass, and F&W take that to include shooting, it is therefore illegal to shoot at any animal in any water.

That being the case, and I can't say for certain it is, the animal, in this case the Deer, would be legal at or above the existing shore line if on the west side.

Just to be clear, I say I'm not certain if this is the case is because this law and many others are open to interpretation by the office present.

For that reason I always recomened that anyone contemplating such a choice, always consult the local eforcemnt agency in advance sine they are the one who would issue any citation thay may feel appropriate.

And BTW our base camp was on the shore of the Peace River, so we did in fact shoot many animals at the water's edge. And were checked on by F&W many times and never had an issue.

Determining the centre of the river would be even tougher than determining the high water mark.

[fishnguy]

^ Pretty sure wmu boundaries are determined by left/right banks of rivers where there are any.

Edit: For example, part of the description of wmu 523:

Commencing at the intersection of the right bank of the Peace River and the north boundary of township 86, range 20, west of the fifth meridian; thence southwesterly along the right bank of the Peace River to the right bank of the Smoky River;

[Big Sky]

River banks are not described in the regs as 'west bank' and 'east bank'. (Eventually they may become the north bank and south bank if the river takes a turn. )

The river banks are described as the 'left bank' and 'right bank'. To know which is the left bank and which is the right bank you simply look downstream. The left bank will be on your left and the right bank will be on your right.

If you insist on facing upstream, the right bank will be on your left and the left bank will be on your right.

Wikipedia has a nice picture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_(geography)

Here is a section of the description of wmu212 where they use the term left bank

thence southeasterly along highway 24 to the right bank of the Bow River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Bow River to the right bank of the Highwood River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Highwood River to a point directly opposite the mouth of the Sheep River; thence directly to the right bank of the Sheep River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Sheep River to highway 22;

https://www.albertaregulations.ca/hu...s/wmu/212.html

Personally, I would not be shooting an animal in a location that could have me arguing where the high water mark was.

[FortMac]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

River banks are not described in the regs as 'west bank' and 'east bank'. (Eventually they may become the north bank and south bank if the river takes a turn. )

The river banks are described as the 'left bank' and 'right bank'. To know which is the left bank and which is the right bank you simply look downstream. The left bank will be on your left and the right bank will be on your right.

If you insist on facing upstream, the right bank will be on your left and the left bank will be on your right.

Wikipedia has a nice picture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_(geography)

Here is a section of the description of wmu212 where they use the term left bank

https://www.albertaregulations.ca/hu...s/wmu/212.html

Personally, I would not be shooting an animal in a location that could have me arguing where the high water mark was.

Why does an Aninal have to be above the high water mark? If the River is the divider for the Zone, I am on one side of the river and the animal is on the other, the animal would be in Zone WMU Xxx while I am in WMU ZZZ. This seems like a Non Issue. Whether the river is 1 mile wide or 20 feet wide, the Animal is on the opposite side of the divider which puts it in the other Zone.

[buckman]

Sorry to add to the confusion,what about Islands?

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by buckman

Sorry to add to the confusion,what about Islands?

Or a peninsula with a techtonic fro.......lol

[Dick284]

When you live on the fringe, skirting the edges all the time, expect some kind of hardship and a whole lot of questions to come your way.

Conduct yourself accordingly, understanding what may be in store for you.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Not to add more confusion to the discussion, trapline boundries on large navigatable rivers in Alberta ( Peace, Athabasca etc) are the high water mark on each respective side of river. If a smaller river like Berland, Kakwa etc the boundry is middle of river.
Not sure if that would apply to WMU's as well. However another note is on Peace River as soon as elk or moose put their feet into the water they need to be swimming and not legal to shoot.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Not to add more confusion to the discussion, trapline boundries on large navigatable rivers in Alberta ( Peace, Athabasca etc) are the high water mark on each respective side of river. If a smaller river like Berland, Kakwa etc the boundry is middle of river.
Not sure if that would apply to WMU's as well. However another note is on Peace River as soon as elk or moose put their feet into the water they need to be swimming and not legal to shoot.

F&W told us that an animal standing in water is considered to be swimming for enforcement purposes because it would be next to impossible to determine whether it was swimming or not if they used actual swimming as the definition.

And Islands are why the center line of the river is used as the hypothetical boundary for the purpose of enforcement.

As I said, a lot of this seems to be open to interpretation by the attending office.

I realize that the bank is defined as the boundry in some cases, such as on the Peace River where we hunted but that's in the regulations, not neccissarily in written statutes. It says riight in the regulations;

This summary is neither a legal document nor a complete collection of current hunting regulations or firearm laws.

For my part I have no interest in challenging an officers interpretation should his definition differ from mine. That seldom succeeds in court.

[fordtruckin]

Do you not have a legal description of the hunt district you are looking for? Seems like if a river or creek is the district boundary it should specify north/south or east/West Bank. As mentioned saying the middle of the water body would be next to impossible to determine.

[MKD]

Read the legal description of the WMU you wish to hunt.

Calgary Wildlife Management Unit (212)

Commencing at the junction of highways 1A and 22 near Cochrane; thence northerly along highway 22 to secondary road 567; thence easterly along secondary road 567 to secondary road 772; thence northerly along secondary road 772 to secondary road 567; thence easterly along secondary road 567 to highway 9; thence southerly along highway 9 to highway 1; thence easterly along highway 1 to highway 24; thence southeasterly along highway 24 to the right bank of the Bow River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Bow River to the right bank of the Highwood River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Highwood River to a point directly opposite the mouth of the Sheep River; thence directly to the right bank of the Sheep River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Sheep River to highway 22; thence northerly and westerly along highway 22 to the western boundary of range 4, west of the 5th meridian; thence northerly along the western boundary of range 4, west of the 5th meridian to the northern boundary of township 23; thence easterly along the northern boundary of township 23 to highway 22; thence northerly along highway 22 to the point of commencement.

[Yaha Tinda]

The line is the ordinary high-water mark of the right bank of the river as viewed facing downstream and it changes from year to year.

I have hunted directly on the line and waited for the last foot to step across the boundary.

Standing in water is not swimming, think! How much game is shot standing in a swamp or puddle on a lease road. SMFH

No hypothetical, imaginary, red neck, back woods Alabama nonsense.

If you're shooting from the rifle zone you can shoot right up to the right bank that forms the boundary of the bow zone. If the elk is standing on the rocks on the opposite side of the river your good to go, but make sure it's a legal elk as spikes look like cows from a long way off in low light.

To answer your question, re: west bank, yes you can.

[FortMac]

Originally Posted by Yaha Tinda

The line is the ordinary high-water mark of the right bank of the river as viewed facing downstream and it changes from year to year.

I have hunted directly on the line and waited for the last foot to step across the boundary.

Standing in water is not swimming, think! How much game is shot standing in a swamp or puddle on a lease road. SMFH

No hypothetical, imaginary, red neck, back woods Alabama nonsense.

If you're shooting from the rifle zone you can shoot right up to the right bank that forms the boundary of the bow zone. If the elk is standing on the rocks on the opposite side of the river your good to go, but make sure it's a legal elk as spikes look like cows from a long way off in low light.

To answer your question, re: west bank, yes you can.

You think you can shoot across the River into a Bow zone if the animal is at the Waters edge?

[Steyr Luxus]

Figure out what WMU are in and the leangle description as fishnguy has used in the example.

[3blade]

Nothing better to do, so I looked up 212 vs 312

The RIGHT bank (facing downstream) of the bow river is part of 212. 312 boundary is the right bank of the bow river. Which would not be apparent if one didn’t look it up.

So you’d better know your WMU description before taking a chance.

Swimming is swimming, standing is standing. What an officer thinks to the contrary is not important, they don’t get to make up laws.

[sheep]

This is the correct answer, everyone should read the WMU description for which WMU they want to hunt.

Originally Posted by MKD

Read the legal description of the WMU you wish to hunt.

Calgary Wildlife Management Unit (212)

Commencing at the junction of highways 1A and 22 near Cochrane; thence northerly along highway 22 to secondary road 567; thence easterly along secondary road 567 to secondary road 772; thence northerly along secondary road 772 to secondary road 567; thence easterly along secondary road 567 to highway 9; thence southerly along highway 9 to highway 1; thence easterly along highway 1 to highway 24; thence southeasterly along highway 24 to the right bank of the Bow River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Bow River to the right bank of the Highwood River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Highwood River to a point directly opposite the mouth of the Sheep River; thence directly to the right bank of the Sheep River; thence upstream along the right bank of the Sheep River to highway 22; thence northerly and westerly along highway 22 to the western boundary of range 4, west of the 5th meridian; thence northerly along the western boundary of range 4, west of the 5th meridian to the northern boundary of township 23; thence easterly along the northern boundary of township 23 to highway 22; thence northerly along highway 22 to the point of commencement.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Nothing better to do, so I looked up 212 vs 312

The RIGHT bank (facing downstream) of the bow river is part of 212. 312 boundary is the right bank of the bow river. Which would not be apparent if one didn’t look it up.

So you’d better know your WMU description before taking a chance.

Swimming is swimming, standing is standing. What an officer thinks to the contrary is not important, they don’t get to make up laws.

Agreed. Several years ago, I spoke with a F&W officer about this very subject. His position is that swimming would require the animal's back to be below the surface of the water. An exposed back would mean the animal was standing. I recall him smiling and saying that was the legal answer, not the practical one. Practically, he said, who the hell would want to deal with a dead moose in the water? :-)