High end scopes

[Submoa_hunter]

Looking at upgrading my scope to something with better glass. Wondering if the schmidt and bender 5-25x56 pmii is worth the money.

I was also looking at a razor gen 2, nightforce atacr, and Steiner m5xi. The pmii is a solid price jump up from the other scopes.



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[marky_mark]

Schmidt and bender is the the one that all the rest are compared to

Vortex sponsors everyone which i think adds to their popularity

Would never buy a steiner/burris ever again

The atacr is your closest comparison but the glass is better on a bender.

[WildBillG]

I guess you need to ask what are you looking for the most in your upgrade. If it just better quality glass Swaro,Ziess and scopes in that orice range will do you fine. If you want good dependable turrets to turn then go S&B. IF you are looking for it all in one scope S&B is the answer again. Get the best you can afford and save money in the long run.

[bobtodrick]

Always amazed no one ever thinks of Tangent Theta https://www.google.ca/amp/s/rifletal...a-5-25x56/amp/
They’re considered to be every bit the equal S&B and Nightforce...and they’re made in Halifax.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Always amazed no one ever thinks of Tangent Theta https://www.google.ca/amp/s/rifletal...a-5-25x56/amp/
They’re considered to be every bit the equal S&B and Nightforce...and they’re made in Halifax.

Who??

[Alta_Redneck]

I run a s&b pmii. It’s amazingly clear and bright, even at full 25x. If I’m spending that kind of money again it would be on another s&b. I’m sure the nightforce would be good too, but I don’t have experience with it. I’ve never been a vortex fan so I can’t fathom spending that kind of money on one. A buddy of mine runs the top of the line kahles scope and he loves it.

[Twisted Canuck]

Have a look at the Leica ER as well. I have an older one with turrets and it's a fantastic bit of glass.

http://en.leica-camera.com/Sport-Opt...a-ER-LRS/Range

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Who??

Google is your friend.
I posted one link but here's the company https://armament.com/products/tangent-theta
They are not common in stores because they have so many military and law enforcement orders that they can't keep up.
It's amazing, LE and military precision shooters know all about them...but the general public in Canada has never heard of them...most U.S. shooters know all about them.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Google is your friend.
I posted one link but here's the company https://armament.com/products/tangent-theta
They are not common in stores because they have so many military and law enforcement orders that they can't keep up.
It's amazing, LE and military precision shooters know all about them...but the general public in Canada has never heard of them...most U.S. shooters know all about them.

4700 usd
They aren’t common in stores because they would sit on a shelf for a long time. Not saying they aren’t good. Just a small market of buyers.
I’ve heard of them. Was just messing with you. Very similar to buying a March scope.

[markg]

I shoot a Vortex Razor HD II and I am a big fan of of this scope. It is excellent. The alpha Japanese glass comes very close to that of the Europeans. Most reviews I have read on the topic say that it is about 90% to 95% as clear bright and sharp as the highest end Shott glass scopes. The price to value ratio is heavily in favor of the Razor. The turrets are excellent. I shoot out to 1000m (not well) and it tracks. I dont use the illumination so I cant comment on that. I am right handed and left eye dominant so i sometimes have issues with eye relief. The Razor is very generous in this department.

The other scope I would recommend is the Athlon Chronos. I recently purchased one and I am really really impressed. I think the glass might actually be slightly better than my Razor. I much prefer the reticle on my Chronos. The eyebox on this scope is excellent as well with tons of eye relief. You cant beat the price. I will give the advantage in turrets to the Razor as the Chronos doesnt have locking turrets. Its not a deal breaker for me. If you are considering a Chronos give Scott at Red Star Targets a call he is a great guy to deal with and he is an amazing shooter.

http://www.redstartarget.com/store/athlon-optics

403-289-7939

Here is a pretty nice review you can watch. Can say things way better than i can.

https://youtu.be/VFpDxFdS5Oo


Here is a great article comparing all the scopes being used on the PRS circuit.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/21/best-scope/

[raw outdoors]

This is how I search for a scope, first what rifle will it be one and what is the purpose of that rifle? How rugged do the mounts and scope need to be to keep the rifle zeroed in the conditions you intend on hunting in. A PMii 5-25 is amazing but if it’s a dedicated sheep hunting gun you will regret that unless your the hulk. The night forces are just as big and bulky in the 5-25s my main rifle is a 4-16 ATCR with a sphur mount that’s my go to to do everything rifle and scope and it’s heavy but it’s repeatable no mater what I drag it through. S&B has awesome glass and mechanics reticals are way out of date , NightForce has great reticals and mechanics glass is not S&B. Leupold is catching up to NF with there new reticals but not there yet glass is on par with NF. The new Swarovski are very interesting to me because the glass will be amazing and but red flag is repeatability, swarm in my experience has had a hard time holding zero after you drag your gun up a mountain.
US optics i have no experience
March I have no experience
I know guys like there vortexes I have a few but if I’m going to drop a large hunk of cash it won’t be on a vortex.
Leupold warranty is close
NF warranty cost almost $100 to get things done
Vortex has a good warranty
Swarovski has an excellent warranty

If your a mil guy there are lots of good retical if your an Moa guy there are less to choose. I can’t figure out why some scope manufactures still make MOA turrets and put a mil retical in the scope. Keep it simple stupid. Because when your tired and a big bull elk is trotting across a clearing and your heart is 200 BPM Is when you get mixed up and those are the times you want everything to work and be simple.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by raw outdoors

This is how I search for a scope, first what rifle will it be one and what is the purpose of that rifle? How rugged do the mounts and scope need to be to keep the rifle zeroed in the conditions you intend on hunting in. A PMii 5-25 is amazing but if it’s a dedicated sheep hunting gun you will regret that unless your the hulk. The night forces are just as big and bulky in the 5-25s my main rifle is a 4-16 ATCR with a sphur mount that’s my go to to do everything rifle and scope and it’s heavy but it’s repeatable no mater what I drag it through. S&B has awesome glass and mechanics reticals are way out of date , NightForce has great reticals and mechanics glass is not S&B. Leupold is catching up to NF with there new reticals but not there yet glass is on par with NF. The new Swarovski are very interesting to me because the glass will be amazing and but red flag is repeatability, swarm in my experience has had a hard time holding zero after you drag your gun up a mountain.
US optics i have no experience
March I have no experience
I know guys like there vortexes I have a few but if I’m going to drop a large hunk of cash it won’t be on a vortex.
Leupold warranty is close
NF warranty cost almost $100 to get things done
Vortex has a good warranty
Swarovski has an excellent warranty

If your a mil guy there are lots of good retical if your an Moa guy there are less to choose. I can’t figure out why some scope manufactures still make MOA turrets and put a mil retical in the scope. Keep it simple stupid. Because when your tired and a big bull elk is trotting across a clearing and your heart is 200 BPM Is when you get mixed up and those are the times you want everything to work and be simple.

Great post thx

[andy1]

Kahles .1st focal.....Swarovski x5i 2nd focal...both lifetime warranty. Not 2 years like s&b pm series.

[SylverCANADA]

Originally Posted by Submoa_hunter

Looking at upgrading my scope to something with better glass. Wondering if the schmidt and bender 5-25x56 pmii is worth the money.

I was also looking at a razor gen 2, nightforce atacr, and Steiner m5xi. The pmii is a solid price jump up from the other scopes.



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When it comes to the top tier glass no matter what you choose you will walk away happy. Just make sure the value is there for your given purpose; as the price can vary a bit -take example Razor Gen II vs S&B PMII. Having said that, all the top tier also have trade offs due to decisions the manufactors go by. For example:

S&B PMII: known to tunnel at x5 mag
Steiner M5Xi: had some initial turrent elevation issues but that was fixed after the 1st year
Razor Gen2: heavy
Kahles: nice eye box but has slight chromatic aberration

From my experience, had the Razor Gen I, loved the scope -stupid idea selling it to fund another project. No lengthy experience with the S&B PMII, so cant comment. Steiner, nice glass but didn't like the reticle. Have currently the Kahles k624i & NF ATACR; great scopes for my eyes, better than Steiner at least in my opinion. The NF seems to me to have better glass then Kahles, but I like the reticle more in the latter, same with the feature setup. Generally prefer the Kahles. Now, if you were to ask me who has the best value for glass, features I would have to say Razor Gen II for the price.

Hope that helped.

[andy1]

Originally Posted by SylverCANADA

When it comes to the top tier glass no matter what you choose you will walk away happy. Just make sure the value is there for your given purpose; as the price can vary a bit -take example Razor Gen II vs S&B PMII. Having said that, all the top tier also have trade offs due to decisions the manufactors go by. For example:

S&B PMII: known to tunnel at x5 mag
Steiner M5Xi: had some initial turrent elevation issues but that was fixed after the 1st year
Razor Gen2: heavy
Kahles: nice eye box but has slight chromatic aberration

From my experience, had the Razor Gen I, loved the scope -stupid idea selling it to fund another project. No lengthy experience with the S&B PMII, so cant comment. Steiner, nice glass but didn't like the reticle. Have currently the Kahles k624i & NF ATACR; great scopes for my eyes, better than Steiner at least in my opinion. The NF seems to me to have better glass then Kahles, but I like the reticle more in the latter, same with the feature setup. Generally prefer the Kahles. Now, if you were to ask me who has the best value for glass, features I would have to say Razor Gen II for the price.

Hope that helped.

Goodness. Found the exact opposite with many points. Razor gen 1 was shutdown for a few reasons. Give shamus a ring at vortex usa (eagle optics origin).

Lots of.opinions. compare them side by side if at all possible.

[huntingfamily]

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/21/best-scope/

[Submoa_hunter]

Originally Posted by markg

I shoot a Vortex Razor HD II and I am a big fan of of this scope. It is excellent. The alpha Japanese glass comes very close to that of the Europeans. Most reviews I have read on the topic say that it is about 90% to 95% as clear bright and sharp as the highest end Shott glass scopes. The price to value ratio is heavily in favor of the Razor. The turrets are excellent. I shoot out to 1000m (not well) and it tracks. I dont use the illumination so I cant comment on that. I am right handed and left eye dominant so i sometimes have issues with eye relief. The Razor is very generous in this department.



The other scope I would recommend is the Athlon Chronos. I recently purchased one and I am really really impressed. I think the glass might actually be slightly better than my Razor. I much prefer the reticle on my Chronos. The eyebox on this scope is excellent as well with tons of eye relief. You cant beat the price. I will give the advantage in turrets to the Razor as the Chronos doesnt have locking turrets. Its not a deal breaker for me. If you are considering a Chronos give Scott at Red Star Targets a call he is a great guy to deal with and he is an amazing shooter.



http://www.redstartarget.com/store/athlon-optics



403-289-7939



Here is a pretty nice review you can watch. Can say things way better than i can.



https://youtu.be/VFpDxFdS5Oo





Here is a great article comparing all the scopes being used on the PRS circuit.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/21/best-scope/

That guys got a lot of good stuff on his channel. Stumbled across him 5-6 years ago and watch his videos occasionally. I found another vid of him testing the tracking on the athlon and it tracked perfectly.

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[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by huntingfamily

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/21/best-scope/

This can be skewed by sponsorships
If I get a razor for free I’m going to use it lol

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Submoa_hunter

Looking at upgrading my scope to something with better glass. Wondering if the schmidt and bender 5-25x56 pmii is worth the money.

I was also looking at a razor gen 2, nightforce atacr, and Steiner m5xi. The pmii is a solid price jump up from the other scopes.

I am assuming you wish to upgrade from the NXS 5.5-22x56 you have listed on the B&S.
Why, & what don't you like, & what more do you need?

Any of the ATACRs are a step up from the NXS, as
all ATACRs are more recent optical design and have ED glass which better controls CA chromatic aberration.

When you say "atacr' I suspect you mean the current eATACR 5-25x56.
ATACRs have 120 MOA vertical range vs NXS @ 100 MOA.
The eATACRs have 30moa/turn turrets (easier to remember what turn you are on), rather than the 20moa/turn of the NXS and original ATACR.
The eATACR also has digital illumination control with added features.
AFAIK, all NXS, ATACR & eATACR, and Razor scopes use glass and tubes by LOW Light Optical Works in Japan, who also build for many other premium models & brands.
NF assembles the turrets and reticles in the USA.

Of all the similar (I considered and tried most), and for my purposes, I much prefer the NF MOAR & MOAR-T reticles.
FFP, F1 & SFP, F2 each have strengths and weaknesses, I prefer F2 & MOAR-T for LR. PRS might prefer F1 & Horus.

None of the heavy scopes would be my choice for carrying very far, for that I have a Swaro fixed 6x36 with thin duplex.
(I do load development with a NF, then switch (on a P-rail) to the Swaro for carry.)

I have NF(4xeATACR & 2xNXS), S&B (PMII), Swaro, Leica, Leupold, Weaver, and several old Bushnells,
IMHO, No scope is best for all uses, but all mine do their jobs well.
I consider alpha glass to be a long term investment and good store of value.

Good Luck, YMMV

[qwert]

When comparing ATACR, Razor & PMII I suggest you fully familiarize yourself with vertical range of adjustment and the specific turret system installed on a specific scope.

AFAIK,
NF turrets can access the full (~120 moa) vertical range of adjustment, and may use 4-6 turns to get there.
Razor GenII scope has 113 moa of range but the turrets are limited to 3x 25moa/turn = 75moa usable range of adjustment.
5-25x PMII has many optional turrets, IIRC most are 2x 35moa/turn = 76moa usable range of adjustment.

Limited usable range may require a specific sloped mount, and/or a long zero, and/or use of reticle hold over for ELR.

IMHE, there is a lot more to consider in a high performance scope than just glass.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[sailor]

Originally Posted by qwert

When comparing ATACR, Razor & PMII I suggest you fully familiarize yourself with vertical range of adjustment and the specific turret system installed on a specific scope.

AFAIK,
NF turrets can access the full (~120 moa) vertical range of adjustment, and may use 4-6 turns to get there.
Razor GenII scope has 113 moa of range but the turrets are limited to 3x 25moa/turn = 75moa usable range of adjustment.
5-25x PMII has many optional turrets, IIRC most are 2x 35moa/turn = 76moa usable range of adjustment.

Limited usable range may require a specific sloped mount, and/or a long zero, and/or use of reticle hold over for ELR.

IMHE, there is a lot more to consider in a high performance scope than just glass.

Good Luck, YMMV.

X1. like vertical offset for example , other words dialing up 40 MOA may actually give you a minute or so mistake which at 1000 yards becomes 10 inches.
And even the most expensive scopes can have this mechanical problem - could be different from the same batch and the same manufacturer

[Submoa_hunter]

Originally Posted by qwert

When comparing ATACR, Razor & PMII I suggest you fully familiarize yourself with vertical range of adjustment and the specific turret system installed on a specific scope.



AFAIK,

NF turrets can access the full (~120 moa) vertical range of adjustment, and may use 4-6 turns to get there.

Razor GenII scope has 113 moa of range but the turrets are limited to 3x 25moa/turn = 75moa usable range of adjustment.

5-25x PMII has many optional turrets, IIRC most are 2x 35moa/turn = 76moa usable range of adjustment.



Limited usable range may require a specific sloped mount, and/or a long zero, and/or use of reticle hold over for ELR.



IMHE, there is a lot more to consider in a high performance scope than just glass.



Good Luck, YMMV.

No the nxs is another scope I had laying around. I'm upgrading from a Steiner t5xi. Glass isn't quite what I was hoping for otherwise everything else is great on it.

So why dont other companies allow more adjustment to match nightforce?

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[marky_mark]

How far are you planning to shoot? What’s this going on?

[sailor]

Originally Posted by Submoa_hunter

No the nxs is another scope I had laying around. I'm upgrading from a Steiner t5xi. Glass isn't quite what I was hoping for otherwise everything else is great on it.

So why dont other companies allow more adjustment to match nightforce?

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It is really hard to make such precise mechanism and even NF and S&B cannot ...
See my post above.So user have to add wintage adjustments for that in addition to wind and coreolis as well
Good thing- they are linear and constant

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Submoa_hunter

No the nxs is another scope I had laying around. I'm upgrading from a Steiner t5xi. Glass isn't quite what I was hoping for otherwise everything else is great on it.

So why dont other companies allow more adjustment to match nightforce

I am not an optical engineer, and AFAIK (which isn't much);

Vertical range is largely a factor of main tube and erector size.
To more fully utilize a large vertical range, it is necessary to use a sloped mount.
(a sloped mount can also increase usable windage range)

The mechanical complexity of turret rotation indicators increases with the number of possible rotations. At the time the PMII was introduced, their 35moa/turn was relatively huge. Todays Tangent Thetta is still limited to 2 turns, but they have 52moa/turn = 104moa total usable.
NF does not have a positive &/or tactile rotation indicator, (but does have a printed scale). No rotation indicator makes the turret easier to design and build to produce full travel.

An eATACR with 120moa range, mounted on a 30moa sloped P-rail, has 30moa down and 90moa up using 3x30moa/turns, (plus 20-30 holdover using reticle).
Theoretically, a 60moa sloped mount could give 120moa up in 4x30moa/turns, but windage range would be reduced at zero, (and 120).

IMHO, Good glass is desirable, but reliable mechanicals are essential.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[Smokinyotes]

I have never used any of the real high end scopes but my Nightforce scopes track perfectly and I’m not sure if you can get a better reticle than the MOART.

[Cow Town Bill]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Schmidt and bender is the the one that all the rest are compared to

Vortex sponsors everyone which i think adds to their popularity

Would never buy a steiner/burris ever again

The atacr is your closest comparison but the glass is better on a bender.

If you have mechanical issues with a S&B, can it be repaired in Canada or must it go back to Europe (Austria or Germany?). What sort of turnaround can one expect?
I have several Nightforces and fortunately I have not had any issues but I think repairs are done in the US? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Bill

[marky_mark]

Swarovski is in the us super fast turn around
ZEISS uses gentec which is the weak link
I’m sure Schmidt and bender is direct
I would guess a world class rifle scope only company would take care of their customers
I heard Nightforce warranty was terrible....

[Unregistered user]

What! No Leupy fans?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

What! No Leupy fans?

The thread is titled "high end scopes"